Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord HP Pool

    • 261 posts
    July 5, 2019 3:15 PM PDT

    As I know there are no known set in stone stat and hp/mp values for each class (and race) yet, but looking at different classes, Dire Lord should have the highest: base hp pool, hp per level, hp per con and hp regen - more than other tank classes. Do you think that some classes will outmatch or at least match them in that regard?

    • 467 posts
    July 5, 2019 4:08 PM PDT

    Interesting question!  Yes! I think they will have lower base HP than a warrior and be close to a Paladin.   I think their protective spells and high regen will make up for less HP.    Like you said , we have nothing to back it up so this is just a guess.   :) 

    • 373 posts
    July 8, 2019 9:50 AM PDT

    Tigersin said:

    Interesting question!  Yes! I think they will have lower base HP than a warrior and be close to a Paladin.   I think their protective spells and high regen will make up for less HP.    Like you said , we have nothing to back it up so this is just a guess.   :) 

    Except that the other tanks have higher mitigation, use shields, etc.  Dire Lords will probably be succeptible to spike damage, so I'm not sure giving them lower HP pools will be a good idea.  But ultimately, health is an easy knob to turn for balancing, so they can just see what works.  I wouldn't be surprised to see DL having the highest HP of the three tanks.  

    • 467 posts
    July 8, 2019 1:25 PM PDT

    Yeah it could go either way.   It seems logical to give them +HP but the abilities like the one below suggest they're meant to fight with low health.

    Relentless Vitality
    Passive Ability. The lower your health, the stronger your natural health regeneration becomes.

    So a DL with 2,000 HP gets hit by a giant for 200 HP  and he's at 1800/2000 (90%)

    But a DL with 1,500 HP gets hit by a giant for 200 HP and he's at 1300/1500 (87%)

    So do you see what I mean by utilizing the Relentless Vitality? It fits with the lower health pool.

    All guessing though of course.  

    Let's see.. Oh! They do have magic shields and mitigation in place of armor.  Though a lot of mitigation would counter the purpose of the above mentioned ability or...  

    You know, I just decided I don't have the brain capacity for this right now LOL   - we need to give our devs more credit for making this stuff work!

    • 1622 posts
    July 8, 2019 4:36 PM PDT

    Tigersin said:

    Yeah it could go either way.   It seems logical to give them +HP but the abilities like the one below suggest they're meant to fight with low health.

    Relentless Vitality
    Passive Ability. The lower your health, the stronger your natural health regeneration becomes.

    So a DL with 2,000 HP gets hit by a giant for 200 HP  and he's at 1800/2000 (90%)

    But a DL with 1,500 HP gets hit by a giant for 200 HP and he's at 1300/1500 (87%)

    So do you see what I mean by utilizing the Relentless Vitality? It fits with the lower health pool.

    All guessing though of course.  

    Let's see.. Oh! They do have magic shields and mitigation in place of armor.  Though a lot of mitigation would counter the purpose of the above mentioned ability or...  

    You know, I just decided I don't have the brain capacity for this right now LOL   - we need to give our devs more credit for making this stuff work!

     

    Honestly, to me, this passive is more like an out of combat faster recovery. I don't think that "health regeneration" is meant to be a high and active gameplay, or it will be a HoT by itself.

     

    I'd opt for a DL with higher Health pool to compensate for less passive defense, and scale better with their self heals that scales over maximum HP.

    • 682 posts
    July 8, 2019 5:37 PM PDT

    Although we don't know for certain - just speculating, I would have to agree with Tigersin.  If the DL does have more HP, it will likely be small, or become OP if it was a flat %.  I say this because they have "active" abilities that scale off of X% of their max HP.

    With that said, I think the race will contribute more to stats which will give some races more HP at lower levels and likely cap out at end game with good gear/buffs.  In EQ the Warrior got more HP than the Pal/SK for every point of STA.  It was negligible though, like 1 STA for 4.5HP for War and 1 STA for 3.8HP for Pal/SK (as an example)... so from the max 255 STA, a warrior would've had about 1147HP while the Pal/SK would've had 969... but then there was +HP on gear.  Like I said though, if the DL does have significantly more HP than the Pal/War it would be broken when they can leach 25% of their max HP.

    • 220 posts
    July 8, 2019 7:06 PM PDT

    I would assume that all the tanks baseline would be close to the same amount of base health. I would also assume, as Darch said, race will probably be a factor for starting statistics (hp's).

    • 21 posts
    July 8, 2019 10:40 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    Although we don't know for certain - just speculating, I would have to agree with Tigersin.  If the DL does have more HP, it will likely be small, or become OP if it was a flat %.  I say this because they have "active" abilities that scale off of X% of their max HP.

    With that said, I think the race will contribute more to stats which will give some races more HP at lower levels and likely cap out at end game with good gear/buffs.  In EQ the Warrior got more HP than the Pal/SK for every point of STA.  It was negligible though, like 1 STA for 4.5HP for War and 1 STA for 3.8HP for Pal/SK (as an example)... so from the max 255 STA, a warrior would've had about 1147HP while the Pal/SK would've had 969... but then there was +HP on gear.  Like I said though, if the DL does have significantly more HP than the Pal/War it would be broken when they can leach 25% of their max HP.

     

    It might not be broken because they probably are going to have lower mitigation to physical stuff due to using chainmail when compared to other tanks in plate. Tanking via max hp compared to having stronger mitigation makes it harder for healers since their heals are flat values so the % heals direlords have could be to compensate for that effect. I doubt its going to be a huge difference ie, not something like 50%, but 10-15% wouldn't surprise me. The overall effect will be really spiky, and from things theyve mentioned that seems to be the goal of the class. 

    • 373 posts
    July 9, 2019 7:43 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    Although we don't know for certain - just speculating, I would have to agree with Tigersin.  If the DL does have more HP, it will likely be small, or become OP if it was a flat %.  I say this because they have "active" abilities that scale off of X% of their max HP... Like I said though, if the DL does have significantly more HP than the Pal/War it would be broken when they can leach 25% of their max HP.

     

    This assumes that the DL is equally as good as the warrior/paladin when at equal HP levels.  If you assume that, then of course giving the DL a relative HP boost will make them OP.  But there's no reason to believe that's the case.

    • 218 posts
    July 9, 2019 10:19 AM PDT

    Have to be careful of giving them to high HP pool though as they have skills that heal for 25% of their maximum health and 12% over time. I imagine the three tanks will have similar health pools in all honesty, the high health regen and effective magic resistance they will have should more than make up for the lack of armour when using skills that restore such high amounts of health and have relatively low cooldowns.

    while they have passive health regen that is higher than normal I think most of their regen will come from the 12% over 4 seconds from Thresh, this skill has a 6 second cooldown meaning you are almost constantly  going to have this skill ticking you for 3% of your max health every second. And this skill is an essence generator too. Not to mention Abyssal Strike that has a 15s cooldown at the moment and heals for 25% of your max health, thats a lot of healing.

    If your threat is being managed fine, you can also use Essence leech, that makes your critical hits heal you for 50% of the damage done, ontop of 25% critical chance. which is scaling from damage not health so its a null point but still, free heals.


    This post was edited by Kellie at July 9, 2019 10:49 AM PDT
    • 1622 posts
    July 9, 2019 1:53 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    Although we don't know for certain - just speculating, I would have to agree with Tigersin.  If the DL does have more HP, it will likely be small, or become OP if it was a flat %.  I say this because they have "active" abilities that scale off of X% of their max HP.

    With that said, I think the race will contribute more to stats which will give some races more HP at lower levels and likely cap out at end game with good gear/buffs.  In EQ the Warrior got more HP than the Pal/SK for every point of STA.  It was negligible though, like 1 STA for 4.5HP for War and 1 STA for 3.8HP for Pal/SK (as an example)... so from the max 255 STA, a warrior would've had about 1147HP while the Pal/SK would've had 969... but then there was +HP on gear.  Like I said though, if the DL does have significantly more HP than the Pal/War it would be broken when they can leach 25% of their max HP.

     

    Well you're the first that claimed self healing was useless and wouldn't be of any use facing true mitigation (which we still have no update on, but last time it was told about AC was not a firm % reduction but more a probability of beeing hit for less), and now a bonus HP would be either meaningless, or overpowered.

     

    The truth is : Mitigation and HP pool are really easy to balance, and if a higher HP pool is considered, then it will be more costly to heal but can be compensated with thoses self heals. However, if mitigation is RNG (like it was in EQ), then the HP Pool will be far more valuable and it will include dispredancies amongst tank, just as much as making a tank lower in defense and relying only in reactive mitigation (self heals). For now we don't really know how it will turn out.

    • 682 posts
    July 9, 2019 5:57 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Darch said:

    Although we don't know for certain - just speculating, I would have to agree with Tigersin.  If the DL does have more HP, it will likely be small, or become OP if it was a flat %.  I say this because they have "active" abilities that scale off of X% of their max HP.

    With that said, I think the race will contribute more to stats which will give some races more HP at lower levels and likely cap out at end game with good gear/buffs.  In EQ the Warrior got more HP than the Pal/SK for every point of STA.  It was negligible though, like 1 STA for 4.5HP for War and 1 STA for 3.8HP for Pal/SK (as an example)... so from the max 255 STA, a warrior would've had about 1147HP while the Pal/SK would've had 969... but then there was +HP on gear.  Like I said though, if the DL does have significantly more HP than the Pal/War it would be broken when they can leach 25% of their max HP.

     

    Well you're the first that claimed self healing was useless and wouldn't be of any use facing true mitigation (which we still have no update on, but last time it was told about AC was not a firm % reduction but more a probability of beeing hit for less), and now a bonus HP would be either meaningless, or overpowered.

     

    The truth is : Mitigation and HP pool are really easy to balance, and if a higher HP pool is considered, then it will be more costly to heal but can be compensated with thoses self heals. However, if mitigation is RNG (like it was in EQ), then the HP Pool will be far more valuable and it will include dispredancies amongst tank, just as much as making a tank lower in defense and relying only in reactive mitigation (self heals). For now we don't really know how it will turn out.

    I wouldn't say I was the "first to claim that self healing was useless".  I am "one of" the first to say that self healing cannot be used to substitute true mitigation (that doesn't make self healing useless... the Paladin can self heal AND has mitigation).

    Most of your "truth" statements are actually false : Balancing of mitigation and HP pool are mechanics that can quite literally break a game if done incorrectly and will take many many months of work to get correct.  And the amount of the HP is not "more costly to heal" when there are abilities that heal % of max HP or % of missing HP.  And the literal point of mitigation is to remove the RNG (spike damage) from tanking.  

    Add:  Allowing a tank class to have say 20k HP while other tanks have 17k HP for the sake of trying to give them more survivability would be broken (for solo content and PvP) when that tank can heal for 5k HP every few seconds... they would still likely get rocked from physical attacks in end game group/raid PvE content if they take 10% more dmg per hit and can't "block" even with 20% more HP due to the rate of which they will be taking hits... we already know the warrior will also have +20% armor proficiency skill too, so even though the DL will wear chain, there's likely no relying on them having a higher proficiency bonus to compensate.
    But as you said, we don't really know how it will turn out.  I am just speculating... they may give the DL a ton of HP -shrug- and it makes no difference to me if they take more damage than the other tanks, it is what it is.


    This post was edited by Darch at July 9, 2019 6:26 PM PDT
    • 220 posts
    July 9, 2019 6:07 PM PDT

    Those of you worrying about the Chain Mitigation vs. Plate, please don't forget that the tanking (pure tanking) stance that the DL has:

    Nightmare Blood

    - Converts 120% of your Damage into Bonus Hate.

    - Reduces all incoming damage by 10%.

     

    In conjuction with self-heals (that are low CD's), I am confident the DL will be just fine.

    • 682 posts
    July 9, 2019 6:35 PM PDT

    Fragile said:

    Those of you worrying about the Chain Mitigation vs. Plate, please don't forget that the tanking (pure tanking) stance that the DL has:

    Nightmare Blood

    - Converts 120% of your Damage into Bonus Hate.

    - Reduces all incoming damage by 10%.

     

    In conjuction with self-heals (that are low CD's), I am confident the DL will be just fine.

    I'm sure the DL will be "fine".  I just wanted to point out that Nightmare Blood is a stance (blood state) as you mentioned... as are the passive self-healing from essence leach and torrential veins, leaving only the melee distance activated ones that require the attack to not be block, parried, riposted, dodged, plain miss, be stunned/disarmed/rooted/feared (or otherwise incapicitated).  Just saying...


    This post was edited by Darch at July 9, 2019 6:43 PM PDT
    • 220 posts
    July 9, 2019 8:08 PM PDT

    Sounds like the 'what if' game there, and I'm not going down that rabbit hole. Lol

    • 1622 posts
    July 10, 2019 9:08 AM PDT

    Fragile said:

    Those of you worrying about the Chain Mitigation vs. Plate, please don't forget that the tanking (pure tanking) stance that the DL has:

    Nightmare Blood

    - Converts 120% of your Damage into Bonus Hate.

    - Reduces all incoming damage by 10%.

     

    In conjuction with self-heals (that are low CD's), I am confident the DL will be just fine.

     

    I honestly don't know where the -10% damage comes from, maybe I didn't notice it in a Stream as for now, neither the wiki does mention it.

     

    @Darch :

     

    Flat values are easy to manipulate against each others, but it's more complicated when you balance active mitigation vs passive, which is "barely" in which case the DL self heals falls. For now I still await to see if mitigation will be as reliable as in EQ (not that much), or if HP will just be the king of non spiky damage. All that could turn the tables, and my only concern is that every tank is close enough for it not to matter in terms of tanking, while offering different benefits from each others to make them non-clones.

    • 682 posts
    July 10, 2019 1:34 PM PDT

    @MauvaisOeil - I can agree with that.   Mitigation is a flat value, RNG (and ultimately relying on a player's active skill) is the dangerous factor in the balancing equation.  I'm sure at the end of the day VR is going to figure out a way to balance it, but they have their work cut out for them.

    • 220 posts
    July 10, 2019 7:56 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I honestly don't know where the -10% damage comes from, maybe I didn't notice it in a Stream as for now, neither the wiki does mention it.

     

    I snipped it from the Leksur Dire Lord stream, from August 23rd 2018.

    • 373 posts
    July 10, 2019 10:20 PM PDT

    I was looking at those screen shots of the stances, and I noticed that the regeneration focused stance also adds a 25% boost to all healing on the Dire Lord.  Including both self heals and heals from other players.  

    That's interesting... given that Provoking Phantoms is an exponential threat over time ability, eventually a DL shouldn't need the extra threat from the threat stance.   At that point, the regen stance will be by far the best stance for sustain.  Of course, essence leech's crit buff and crit-based life leech could be good for damage and sustain on a well-geared DL.

    All three stances seem to be extremely powerful, and that's something I've been overlooking to a degree.

    • 1622 posts
    July 11, 2019 6:21 AM PDT

    zoltar said:

    I was looking at those screen shots of the stances, and I noticed that the regeneration focused stance also adds a 25% boost to all healing on the Dire Lord.  Including both self heals and heals from other players.  

    That's interesting... given that Provoking Phantoms is an exponential threat over time ability, eventually a DL shouldn't need the extra threat from the threat stance.   At that point, the regen stance will be by far the best stance for sustain.  Of course, essence leech's crit buff and crit-based life leech could be good for damage and sustain on a well-geared DL.

    All three stances seem to be extremely powerful, and that's something I've been overlooking to a degree.

     

    The question will be "do you need 10% additional damage reduction" or "do you need more sustain" ? Might depend of the damage intake, or burst of the encounter. But I'm not sure anything can really outshine a flat 10% damage reduction, but I'm all ready and motivated to test it out.

    • 235 posts
    July 11, 2019 9:13 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    zoltar said:

    I was looking at those screen shots of the stances, and I noticed that the regeneration focused stance also adds a 25% boost to all healing on the Dire Lord.  Including both self heals and heals from other players.  

    That's interesting... given that Provoking Phantoms is an exponential threat over time ability, eventually a DL shouldn't need the extra threat from the threat stance.   At that point, the regen stance will be by far the best stance for sustain.  Of course, essence leech's crit buff and crit-based life leech could be good for damage and sustain on a well-geared DL.

    All three stances seem to be extremely powerful, and that's something I've been overlooking to a degree.

     

    The question will be "do you need 10% additional damage reduction" or "do you need more sustain" ? Might depend of the damage intake, or burst of the encounter. But I'm not sure anything can really outshine a flat 10% damage reduction, but I'm all ready and motivated to test it out.

    I think provoking phantoms is a single target ability, so I could see the extra threat stance as useful for adds around a boss, for example. Balancing hp, mitigation and threat is certainly possible, for each tank class and across classes. A higher hp pool wouldn't be unreasonable if the mitigation is less than the plate tanks. We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out. This is definitely one of the classes I want to test.

    • 682 posts
    July 11, 2019 12:19 PM PDT

    Percipiens said:

    This is definitely one of the classes I want to test.

    I think a lot of people are interested in testing the DL tanking viability compared to the plate wearers. 

    The true testing will come in production late game unfortunately.  Even if devs allow Pre-A and Alpha testers to put on some level 50 gear, level us up and let us go at some level 50 NPCs, it won't be an accurate representation of what players that have been collecting gear and tricks (both solo and in groups) for several months will be able to do... in particular because devs wouldn't allow that long enough for the players to even know what all of their skills "really" do aside from the text in the description.  

    • 35 posts
    July 11, 2019 3:19 PM PDT

    I feel like in Raid DL will mostly be an offtank to aggro magic dealing mobs or main tank for Raid boss doing a lot of magic damage if it exists.

    • 2462 posts
    July 12, 2019 11:12 AM PDT

    Khraag said:

    I feel like in Raid DL will mostly be an offtank to aggro magic dealing mobs or main tank for Raid boss doing a lot of magic damage if it exists.

    It was mentioned in one of the streams by Joppa that they want to try to avoid any specific "main" tanks, especially with raids. They want it to be such that raid groups will need or be encouraged to swap between the different tank types throughout an encounter. IIRC.

    • 103 posts
    July 16, 2019 3:53 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    Percipiens said:

    This is definitely one of the classes I want to test.

    I think a lot of people are interested in testing the DL tanking viability compared to the plate wearers. 

    The true testing will come in production late game unfortunately.  Even if devs allow Pre-A and Alpha testers to put on some level 50 gear, level us up and let us go at some level 50 NPCs, it won't be an accurate representation of what players that have been collecting gear and tricks (both solo and in groups) for several months will be able to do... in particular because devs wouldn't allow that long enough for the players to even know what all of their skills "really" do aside from the text in the description.  

    All past MMOs with challenging endgame content contain raid bosses that can 1-shot all but the tankiest class(es). This is required content in order for the tankiest class to have a role in the end game since being tanky comes at the cost of DPS. If a higher DPS class is tanky enough for the biggest baddest boss, then there is no reason for a raid force to suffer the DPS penalty of using the lower DPS tanky class. If a raid needs to tank 5 mobs, and none of those mobs require the tankiest tank, then the raid will be better off using higher DPS classes in those spots. End game guilds will be raiding with this type of mindset, and it will be clear very quickly which classes are useless...just like it was in EQ1.

    Having said that, it's clear the Warrior will be the tankiest tank in terms of physical damage. The only way they will have a role if is they are the only class who can tank the hardest hitting mob in the end game, otherwise there will be no reason to put up with their lesser DPS.

    It looks like DLs may be the tankiest tank in terms of magic damage, so that works if there are end game mobs that require the DL's superior magic mitigation. It's a bit like making a class good against undead, and then creating enough undead content for it to matter.

    This notion that being able to self heal after taking damage as some sort of balance for lesser mitigation comes from a complete ignorance about end game content. If a DL has lesser mitigation and is 1-shotted by a mob he isn't going to be alive to self heal (same type of deal with evasion tanks). That type of tanking mechanic only works in trivial/group content, and nobody really cares about who's tanking in that content...because it's trivial.