Forums » The Bard

Should Bards where Plate Armor?

    • 1653 posts
    November 13, 2019 2:11 PM PST

    Why not control / Offtank, that would be neat and plate wearing :).

    • 182 posts
    November 13, 2019 4:02 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Why not control / Offtank, that would be neat and plate wearing :).

     

    Thats exactly what it is, its a blast. Its not "tanking" so to speak, its a form of crowd control via /incite /shield buffs/deftdance if boss which is ultimately another form of CC just like the chanters have with runeskin as Janus pointed out. Its just one of many tools such as stuns that bards (which required taking melee damage) finally got, and the chanters always had. I suppose plate isnt needed but something simular is if were going to be shoe horned into an pure CC position FOR SURE. Im pretty confident we wont be fading anytime soon. Maybe Ill be pleasently surprised? If not were going to need ALOT of tools off the bat instead of over the course of 2 decades.

     

    ...Im not making any of this up btw this is the current state of the most popular bard class of any game ever. And its one of the best things Ive ever seen added to the class that Ive mained forever. It was terrible not being able to anger any non CC mob to pull it off a healer while the tanks caught up doing whatever.... 15 years later they finally gave us taunt and life completely changed for the better. Much like how fade changed life. I have and always will view the bard as a jack of all trades. I literally love the class, and hope it gets everything it can...... and I will only lobby in that direction.


    This post was edited by Alyonyah at November 13, 2019 4:21 PM PST
    • 367 posts
    November 14, 2019 11:03 PM PST

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Why not control / Offtank, that would be neat and plate wearing :).

    Because the role of control is far more wide ranging than simply offtanking. Offtanking means that healer is losing a ton on mana use having to heal the tank, other group members and now the offtank who's taking damage as well and in effect, that greatly limits group efficiency. Offtanking is an absolutely terrible form of CC for that and many other reasons. It also limits you to CCing 1-2 mobs at max where as a class in the actual Control archetype, you can manage upwards of 5-10 mobs. Your armor is not designed to tank that many mobs and in effect, you use your skills and your instruments. If you're tanking as a Control archetype, you are in effect doing something VERY wrong, and because of that, the idea of plate is fairly pointless, not just in the concept for the class as something that needs dexterity, agility and fluidity of motion. For that reason, cloth or at the maximum, leather is a must for the class by design.


    This post was edited by Janus at November 14, 2019 11:07 PM PST
    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 3:44 AM PST

     

    Janus said:

     If you're tanking as a Control archetype, you are in effect doing something VERY wrong, 

     

    I was and had always been considered the best bard on my respective server. This is obviously a matter of peoples opinion but it was an opinion held by the majority of the server.... and they were all very impressed with bard mark tanking non CCable mobs for short term CC, especially in raid format when it counted (all the "good" bards do this now). Maybe your doing something wrong trying to pigeon hole this class into a silk pure caster? Your bard is not the jack of all trades, its an enchanter. I hope they dont follow your "vision" as I truly would like to play a jack of all trades master of none class again. Like I said I dont have to have plate, but bards do need to have options and if plate is one of those - so be it.


    This post was edited by Alyonyah at November 15, 2019 3:53 AM PST
    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 3:59 AM PST

    I think maybe you assume Im saying the bards just sit there and tank... I am not. Im suggesting bards have the ability to mark up and maybe briefly tank if needed mobs which are not tank locked or CCable. This would be a "last option" for bards to CC otherwise non CCable mobs. I dont need to have plate to do that.... just some sort of taunt. Id like to be able to do this as well as pull. Funnest part of the game to me... if they make bards gimp silky types ill likely roll a monk. Pulling is ALSO a form of CC I believe the bards should have. Hope theres more support among bards for that aspect of our class...

    • 477 posts
    November 15, 2019 4:05 AM PST
    Bard should use cc instead off facetank a free mob untill main tank can get the attention from the mob on track.

    I would also be a little annoyed as a monk player, with offtank role in desceiotion, if the plate waering Bards would offtank better than me.

    Lether and or cloth for Bards els it breaks realisme to much and also a lot of useless plate items will enter the game making for some annoying loot tabel. Its enough cleric will get plate with sta, wiz, int. If plate loot also contains cha, dex and agi it will make no sence, if you ask me.
    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 5:09 AM PST

    ...ok~

    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 5:10 AM PST

    Maybe I should be in monk forums talking about how monks being able to pull annoys me a little.

    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 5:20 AM PST

    What does a bard cast on a mob if it is non mez, non charm, non root, non snare? Chanters (chain runes, dopplegangers, etc) have had and always had options... bards never did untill what... 2013? 2014? I dont want to go through that again with MY class. We should of had options from jump street. Im addressing the issue far ahead of time in pantheon. This WILL be an issue if the bard class is ANYTHING like eq/vg bard. I dont want to have to deal with being powerless in such a situation for 20 years because people are annoyed that I can take a hit or two... or gain aggro when I want it. The whole bard class was annoyed for 20 years not being heard about aggro issues, and Im speaking here for them.

     

    Monks did everything in their power to remove fade from bards as well. Toxic mentality. Im not asking to nerf monks, that would be childish. If bards can take a hit or two why does that annoy you? If bards can pull a mob or two why does that annoy you? Maybe its because your a monk.

    • 733 posts
    November 15, 2019 5:25 AM PST

    Let me preface this by saying that I much prefer the bard class to make their group perform better above all else. I would be happy if bards couldn't solo at all, and were a pure grouping class with NO DPS.  If I were designing the class I wouldn't even grant exp for killing things - but instead for time spent learning our craft, buffing our group, controlling our enemies (I know - pipe dream!). But understanding that - realize the rest of this post is just one bard's opinion:

    Bards can pull quite effectively without Fade (personally I thought that was silly OP, leave feign to monks) and even without plate armor if they know their class.  I agree a snap taunt would be an awesome/welcome addition to the skill set, but my bard never had it and I still had great fun.  If you - as a bard - are going to pull a mob off a squishy I prefer there to be huge risk, it should be a critical decision for us - much moreso than for a Pally, SK or monk (or even ranger / rogue). Let the true tanks offtank, we should only be stepping in during a real emergency.  With whatever form of CC makes the most sense / is the most effective at that particular moment. I would prefer, while rummaging through the bag of tricks, if using my face was the last resort (it's too pretty).

    That is what makes bards fun - you CAN do nearly anything, but not nearly as well as a class specifically designed for that role. Making the right choice when / if to step in is what makes you shine.

     

    PS - Paging Kilsin: for Maestro's sake please fix the blasted title of this thread! Roguishly sneak in and backstab that "where" into submission. Feed it to the dropbears. Thanks in advance.

    • 477 posts
    November 15, 2019 5:29 AM PST
    We do know the roles of the monk, bards roles are not something we know for sure yet. yes we can guess. And cc and support will prolly be there. but Im prirty sure they wont get the offtank role like the monk does.

    Puller is not a role that has been used yet, my guess is that many classes are valid pullers and some can offtank, Like the summoner tank pet and monks
    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 5:33 AM PST

    Kumu said:

    Let me preface this by saying that I much prefer the bard class to make their group perform better above all else. I would be happy if bards couldn't solo at all, and were a pure grouping class with NO DPS.  If I were designing the class I wouldn't even grant exp for killing things - but instead for time spent learning our craft, buffing our group, controlling our enemies (I know - pipe dream!). But understanding that - realize the rest of this post is just one bard's opinion:

    Bards can pull quite effectively without Fade (personally I thought that was silly OP, leave feign to monks) and even without plate armor if they know their class.  I agree a snap taunt would be an awesome/welcome addition to the skill set, but my bard never had it and I still had great fun.  If you - as a bard - are going to pull a mob off a squishy I prefer there to be huge risk, it should be a critical decision for us - much moreso than for a Pally, SK or monk (or even ranger / rogue). Let the true tanks offtank, we should only be stepping in during a real emergency.  With whatever form of CC makes the most sense / is the most effective at that particular moment. I would prefer, while rummaging through the bag of tricks, if using my face was the last resort (it's too pretty).

    That is what makes bards fun - you CAN do nearly anything, but not nearly as well as a class specifically designed for that role. Making the right choice when / if to step in is what makes you shine.

     

    PS - Paging Kilsin: for Maestro's sake please fix the blasted title of this thread! Roguishly sneak in and backstab that "where" into submission. Feed it to the dropbears. Thanks in advance.

     

    Prior to fade bard was not a trusted puller in raid format. It became OP when the mana cost wasnt adjusted and the server ticks started being exploited. Originally it was in line but the devs totally dropped the ball completely when they started chasing after wow/eq2 subs. Im not suggesting bards be an offtank... Im suggesting you let the true offtanks do that... Im suggesting we would only step in during a real emergency. Im suggesting we dont have to just sit there helpless for 15 years before we are given a tool for that scene that will play out literally every single day you play in a group or raid.

    • 733 posts
    November 15, 2019 5:48 AM PST

    Alyonyah said:

     Im suggesting we dont have to just sit there helpless for 15 years before we are given a tool for that scene that will play out literally every single day you play in a group or raid. 

    That seems a bit of hyperbole to me. I grouped and raided for years (granted, not 15) as a bard, my mileage clearly varied from yours. I understand your desire that VR keep the things you have loved about our class from other games. It will be interesting to see what vision of the bard shall emerge from the team.


    This post was edited by Kumu at November 15, 2019 5:49 AM PST
    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 5:57 AM PST

    I wish it were Hyperbole. What did you do when the tank dropped or the tank slept while a loose no mez/charm mob beat everyone up? Until taunt you did nothing. How often does the tank drop or lose awareness/have more than one thing to do? Everyday in non trivial content. Every single day. Its not hyperbole. Read forums. Bards bitched about this for years and years.

    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 6:00 AM PST

    It will be interesting to see which way they go with the bard class. Im very much looking forward to it. If its something entirely new Im open to that. Just dont dare call it the jack of all trades again if thats not what it is/going to be - please. If necroes who also have not been outlined end up being the most versatile class - Ill play that instead. I just wanna play the most versatile class, in a game of very distinct classes - one more time.


    This post was edited by Alyonyah at November 15, 2019 6:03 AM PST
    • 477 posts
    November 15, 2019 6:01 AM PST
    I hope bards is a support, cc and damage class. With 1h sword and an instrument in offhand. Doing physical and magical damage.

    The player should be buffing the grp while in combat, but also pay attention to when to damage.

    Abilities could be sonic stab and sining slash seems ligit to me.

    Rift had a very cool bard class, that was a mix of damage, support and heal. Many players enjoyed that class.
    • 733 posts
    November 15, 2019 6:15 AM PST

    Agree to disagree. I don't need to read the forums (thanks for the tip) I played the class for years. Perhaps I just had more reliable tanks/groups/raids than you. Did you really find the bard NOT versatile before taunt? I can understand if you were frustrated in not having a tool that could help until more than a decade had elapsed - but you still played a bard (and I assume enjoyed it) all that time.

    I want a fun but challenging (not overpowered) class. No swarm kiting, no fade - as I said before I just want to make my group noticeably better with each and every trick that VR gives us.  If the class is not enjoyable, I bet we will all move on to another. It is a game.

    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 6:47 AM PST

    I played with the best players always. You just didnt play the class as much nor at the level I did. If you had this wouldnt be a debate - itd be a matter of fact. So yea, agree to disagree.... we all need to read and become informed of objective truth so that we might find compromise. We will never find compromise if you reject reading for greater understanding simply because an opinion other than your own suggested it, but I digress.

    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 7:10 AM PST

    I just did a forums search to see whats being talked about these days (I stopped playing in 2014) and the first thing I found is bards requesting a faster refresh timer for their taunt ability because 5 minutes is to long~ ***october 23rd 2019***. I realize this is a totally new game, but I also realize these are the original creators. Im trying to not repeat history by shining light on dim areas......

     

    This is far from an over powering ability.... the ability to taunt once every 5 minutes... and it adds challenge to the class rather than ease of "not my job".... I think some folks just have a contesting spirit, because none of these arguements line up. Thats why "Bards shouldnt wear Plate" has been the strongest arguement thus far - because feelings.

    • 182 posts
    November 15, 2019 7:37 AM PST

    Kumu - you accuse me of hyperbole , and then when I ask you to research your accusations against me you claim that you already know (even though your own words say SEEM like hyperbole). Then when I ask you to actually look and see if it was indeed hyperbole you politely tell me to ,,i, by saying (thanks for the tip) but psyche~..... You are naked sir and I can see right through you.

     

    As of today your out of the conversation on these forums as far as Im concerned. You can lobby to gimp the class until your little hearts content, but your blood is upon my steel.

     

    Having said all that, I realize this is a new game and none of us know what the devs are cooking up. All we can really talk about is what we have already experienced as bards across all games. I have a ton of experience as exactly that and all Ive mentioned thus far are some of the most glaring issues the bard class has dealt with over the past decade. The only way anyone can argue what Im saying is by being ignorant of the state we have been in.... So please. People who love and actually play the bard class please speak up in this thread. Not people with a vision but people with experience. Let the devs use their visions, that why we pay THEM.

    • 733 posts
    November 15, 2019 8:14 AM PST

     You can lobby to gimp the class until your little heart's content, but your blood is upon my steel.  

    I had no intention of upsetting anyone or gimping the class. I was just expressing one bard's opinion {albeit different} having also played for years, including top end raiding. I would prefer something different, not a repeat of the EQ bard with some fixes / tweaks.

    Taking it to PMs, I would rather hemorrhage where (not WEAR - Kilsin: please fix the thread title!) it's easier to mop up.


    This post was edited by Kumu at November 15, 2019 8:56 AM PST
    • 182 posts
    November 16, 2019 6:24 AM PST

    Kumu said:

    I had no intention of upsetting anyone or gimping the class. I was just expressing one bard's opinion {albeit different} having also played for years, including top end raiding. I would prefer something different, not a repeat of the EQ bard with some fixes / tweaks.

    You have posted you want a silk bard in literally every forum Ive read here. Over and over you have stated that long before this thread was brought up. You obviously have a bias; however you played a plate bard in EQ (when silk was an option) and if they gave bards plate (with a silk option) in pantheon, Id wager youd wear plate there as well. Because you ARE lobbying to gimp everyone so that you can have your opinion/vision and your being very disingenuous in that you wouldnt nerf just yourself - the whole class must be silk..... If bards end up in silk they all can blame you.

     

    My complaint is that Ive been the only one here NOT expressing my opinion, but rather highlighting the details of the bards which VR devs have already created and the caveats therein so that we may avoid any pitfalls. You have completely altered all your posts to cover up your faux pas, but you accused me of making this whole thing up/exaggerating in open forums, while agreeing with me and claiming you even took part in the conversations on forums regarding taunt over the years in my PMs..... This is completely disingenuous. Why did you act like I was exaggerating the problem when the fact is you exaggerated that it never was an issue? Why did you clinton me? So you can have a silk bard? Come on. We can never have a conversation that way, just an agenda. Let the devs press their agenda, let us talk about what we know.

    I was there when they changed the aggro coding for bards between velious and luclin rather then giving us a tool to deal with the aggro (fade/rune/discs). Im not gonna silently watch that again Ill scream for tools rather then a sweeping coding change. I was also there when they finally gave us fade and kept the broken aggro coding (again im vigilant).... I watched every problem with the bard unfold and pile on top of each other step by step from launch till 2014. This is the only plate bard I know of that this dev team has created, so I see it as THE model to look at..... Why shouldnt I??? I want something new as well, but I dont want the wheel reinvented for your vision, and Im actually the one of us making sure we dont fall into the same ruts - ensuring a positive change/critiquing hard REAL data that we already have about PLATE bards like the thread says.... One more time - everyone in this thread is pushing opinion (mostly non bards) while accusing me of doing the same, and denying the veracity of what Im highlighting as if it never happened, and the only real bard here arguing (kumu) is both aware of the issue and publicly denying it ever happened, while admitting it was a known issue in my pms. Why all the word salad fakery? Because you want a silk bard. This is why you bleed out. Im not offended by you I have compassion for you and speak bluntlyin order that I may help you.

    Lastly I enjoyed the chain bard from VG as well though not nearly as much, Im hoping that song components and writing is a thing in pantheon like it was in vanguard. Im trying to talk about what we already know the devs here have created so we can critic that.... everyone else is pushing their "vision" in this thread and 9 of ten aint even bards. I want to effect a positive change for this class, but Ive been trying upto this point to remove my bias..... All through this thread I have stated multiple times that bards did not need plate (in my opinion/in an attempt to find compromise with you haters) but that they did need some way to gain aggro and dance for a short while to survive till a real tank came (fact of any CC class/not an insane demand). I have been unbiased upto this point but all the posters in this thread have convinced me to lobby for the Heavy Metal Bard full time, and so that is what I will do. The plate EQ bard is literally my single most favorite character of all time, across all games and platforms, and I know the bulk majority of pantheoners will be returning EQers. Its upto the devs but yea.... people got over it in EQ and Im sure theyd get over it here. HEAVY METAL BARDS UNITE! Stand up in this thread and be counted.

    If bards end up in silk blame Kumu. If bards end up in Plate just smile at the haters. 

     

    Malkiyah~

    • 182 posts
    November 16, 2019 6:45 AM PST

    This IS an opinion thread... I am aware, but why are we not allowed to look at what we know? Riddle me this please someone?

    • 182 posts
    November 16, 2019 6:51 AM PST

    Hmmm gonna learn how to use gauntlets like a slide and upload some videos shreddin. If I do that will that settle the arguement? Anyone know where I can get some cheap gaunts?

    • 182 posts
    November 16, 2019 6:52 AM PST

    I bet that with practice playing guitar with gauntlets is superior sound..... we may set a new trend here.