I'm hoping for some green/purple abomination that uses gas attack that poisons us and inflict us with multiple debuffs and atop of it have adds phases of "countless" larvae, we will have to know when exactly attack larvae, when boss and when to stop attacking alltogether.
All raid bosses should be HARD and/or beyond hard.
I prefer mechanics that involve combat not dancing.
Use of the bosses' combat abilities - summoning adds - perhaps use of items the boss was saving for a time of peril - all good. Raid players having to go to certain precise pixels in a specified order at specified times - not so good.
If the boss blows out a cloud of poisonous gas and we all die because we weren't in the right position (timing and direction of the attack being semi-random) this makes sense to me.
If 8 players need to go to certain locations, chant the tier'dal anthem with their eyes closed and dance widdershins while emoting their worship of the God of Hate - a bit ...ridiculous but too many mechanics impose inane non-combat mechanics just because the developers are not capable of making the fight itself winable but highly challenging.
My preferences are similar to dorotea, on this subject. No to the dancing, yes to the challenging combat.
Additionally and specifically, my preference would be that multi-group content actually require multiple groups, rather than arbitrary roles/classes in arbitrary quantities.
What do I mean by that? I mean if the encounter is meant for 4 groups, then require those 4 groups to be complete, within themselves. One from each role, minimum. That way, when the time comes to consume multi-group content, you get to play your role like you just did for the past 10,20,30,40, or 50 levels. Rather than playing an entirely different (or opposite) way when it comes time to consume multi-group content.
It's always annoyed me (and many in my guilds) that in some games, you play the game one way while leveling, and then play it entirely differently when at the level cap or consuming multi-group content. It seems like a great big bait-and-switch, rather than simply challenging.
Hegenox said:I'm hoping for some green/purple abomination that uses gas attack that poisons us and inflict us with multiple debuffs and atop of it have adds phases of "countless" larvae, we will have to know when exactly attack larvae, when boss and when to stop attacking alltogether.
All raid bosses should be HARD and/or beyond hard.
OK so after reading this, I want...
A raid boss that infects players with a mutation that changes them (minute by minute) into horrible monsters that will help the boss. Mutants, Zombies, Mindless Drones, call 'em what you will. Instead of raiders dying in the fight they will, over time, become the fight.
BamBam said:What mekanics do you like to see?
Adds. My favorite, especially those where mez/crowd control is not possible. Adds means that everyone has some very important role to play unlike when everyone is just beating on 1 big raid mob.
AoEs, both raid mob centered and ground targeted. Gotta keep your eyes open to watch for the signs one is about to happen. Doesn't let anyone AFK the fight.
Positioning. This usually involves the AoEs and world geometry blocking. You all remember fights like these where all the clerics hid around the corner doing their complete heal rotations while casters jumped in-out of LoS to cast. A key thing to learn and when you get it right the fight is easier. Mess it up and a wipe is quick to follow.
BamBam said:What themes of monster would be cool to fight?
This does not matter to me. All I ask is that it fits into the world, making sense that it is where it is.
BamBam said:How difficult should it be?
Of course it should be difficult, so much so that victory on a first attempt (if you haven't read up on a spoiler somewhere) would be rare to non-existant. Learning the encounters must take time and effort. Victory is so much sweeter, more rewarding and much more memorable when it was a struggle to achieve.
BamBam said:What raid Boss fight is the most memerable to you and why?
I greatly enjoyed Emperor Ssraeszha in the EQ1 Luclin expansion. It took a lot of work just to get to him and then you had the unmezzable adds that needed what..8 off tanks and healers to keep busy while the rest of the raid focused on Emperor.
What I did not want to see are the mindless raids, ones where you rush in and max-dps to kill it before it kills you. I hated the Nagafen raids because they were just this. No real strategy involved. Make me think, make me plan, allow enoy forgiveness such that the fight can sway back and forth where minor mistakes can be overcome (with effort of course) but where big mistakes will spell certain doom.
Neph's thoughts:
Raiding in MMORPGs needs to evolve. For years we have seen endless variations on "kill the big monster". These fights, while fun and visually interesting, often have predictable mechanics. Oh, look, there's an AoE we need everyone to avoid. Oh, look, there's something people need to stack, or interrupt, or buff/debuff for. Oh, look, we need to trade aggro to a different tank. Oh, look, the boss's attacks do X damage so you need Y mitigation, and there's an enrage timer so dps needs to do Z damage on the parse to beat it.
If Pantheon gives us more of the same... raids will be a disappointment. They'll still be fun, sure, but we'll figure them out based on all the things we've done in all those other games and that will be that. Boring. Raids should challenge us in new and unexpected ways.
So I say, let's have Pantheon turn the concept of raiding on its head. Let's have it mean more than just "grab a horde of friends and kill a big monster". Let's have new and different types of challenges that put us all on our back foot, and force us to find new ways to work together to win. Above all, let's have a game where every raid is unique, and not just a copy of the things we did before with one or two new tricks.
Here are a few examples of how I think raids in Pantheon could work. These are just things I came up with off the top of my head. I'm quite sure VR could do even better:
The Orc Army
Scenario: An army of orcs has gathered and it is up to your raid to stop them!
Stage 1: The orcs have broken into three companies - center, right, and left, and are advancing on the town. Each company has a lieutenant who will continually summon reinforcements every few minutes until they are defeated. The town has defenders that can slow down the orc advance but not stop it. Your raid needs to fight through the orcish ranks and take down the lieutenants to push the orcs back. Whether you split up to do that or try to take them one at a time is up to you. If any of the orc companies get through they will attack the town center. If the town center is overrun, NPC soldiers are routed, and the orcs all gain a massive buff, leading to your deaths in short order. You can still attempt to stop the orcs at the town center if one company breaks through, but if two or more companies make it there, you're probably doomed.
Stage 2: If you manage to defeat all three lieutenants and scatter their companies, now you have to handle the main host of orcs. The main host is led by a general and his followers, which include a number of powerful orcs of various classes. They're arrayed on a hill outside town, surrounded by their soldiers and patrols. There are too many soldiers to handle all at once so you and your raid will need to devise a plan of attack to try and thin out the ranks. How you do that is up to you. Once you've created an opening you can assault the general and his guards.
Stage 3: If you are winning the fight with the general, at some point he will order his reserves in to battle. When this happens, two orc runners will appear and take off for smaller camps, one to either side. If those runners make it to the camps, they will use a warhorn which has appeared there (and is guarded) to summon a company-sized group of orcs with a massive rock troll, who will then march towards the hill where the main fight is underway. You can try to kill the runners before they make it to the camps, or you can assault the camps and destroy the warhorn before the runners can use them. Or, you can let the runners go, and face down the rock trolls and the reinforcements as you continue to fight the general and his troops. What strategy you use is up to you.
Defeat the general and his squad, and (potentially) the rock trolls and the day is won! The orcs retreat, and you can help yourself to well-earned loot and the adoration of the townspeople.
Why I like this scenario: There are multiple objectives and no single clear strategy to beat them. Raids can tackle the scenario in several different ways. It's not all about one single big monster, but about facing multiple tough opponents. And, it does NOT have to be instanced to preserve difficulty. This could be a zone event where the number of orcs scales based on the number of players in the vicinity.
The Dragon of the Mountain
Scenario: In the frosty peaks, there lies a small hunting village in a valley. In the depths of winter, a terrible storm emerges, the wind and the snow confining nearly everyone indoors. No sane person would venture out in this weather. That is, until the scream of a hunting dragon is heard above the village. As the first houses begin to burn, your raid must come to the rescue and defeat the great beast, in the heart of a raging blizzard.
Stage 1: The dragon is in the air and circling the town, raining down destruction at random in the form of massive fireballs. Melee attacks obviously won't reach it, but the focus of the raid at this point is to drive it off. Your raid has options: Players with ranged abilities can attack the dragon directly when it comes within range. Other players can climb the three watchtowers, which have ballista mounted atop them. The ballista need ammunition, which is in two other locations in the town. But, if players are able to arm and man the ballista, they can attack the dragon as well with those. Once the first ballista is fired, the dragon will begin to target the towers specificially, so time your shots well. Do enough damage to the dragon and it will retreat to the nearby peak.
Stage 2: Near the peak is an old stone circle, there for millenia. It is here you will face the dragon. As your raid enters the stone circle, the raging blizzard intensifieds, the gusts actively pushing you towards the edge of the cliff! Brace yourselves against the stones, but keep your eyes up, because the dragon is here, and it is angry. As you hide amongst the stones, the dragon will take different tactics to try and destroy you. It may land and beat it's wings to try and push you away from your shelter. It may rain fire from above, vulnerable only to ranged attacks. It may swoop down and attempt to grab one or more of your members in its massive claws. By watching closely, you can see what it's doing and try to react in time, but the storm is also still a concern. As you battle the winds and the dragon, a numbing cold sets in, slowing your movements and, if you go long enough without a source of warmth, causing damage as well. Ironically, those blasts of fire from the dragon might just save your life - if you survive.
Defeat the dragon and a grateful villager will point out its lair to you - where treasure awaits. Fail, and the dragon will depart when the storm clears, and you and the villagers will be left to pick up the pieces.
Why I like this scenario: This is a fight against a single big monster but it's not just about pushing out as much dps as you can against a hp wall, and avoiding AoEs. You'll have to think about your tactics and you'll have to adapt on the fly to what the dragon is doing. The environment also plays a big role, meaning you can't settle in on a single strategy so easily. And instead of an enrage timer, you've got until the weather changes to try and figure this one out. Let the dragon get away, and who knows when it might come back again? After all, it's smart enough not to show up with every single blizzard that falls on the village.
The Blood Moon
Scenario: An ancient ritual has been enacted and a blood-red moon rises above the desert sands. Across the desert, long-dead warriors claw their way out of the ground, hungry for living flesh. Caught in the middle, can your raid hold off the hordes of undead until dawn, or find a way to stop the source?
Stage 1: The blood moon rises and the undead hordes begin to appear. Mindless at first, they attack anything and anyone that comes close. With more appearing constantly, you'd best find a defensible position. Which one? The cliffs to the west? The ruined fortress to the north? The canyon to the east? Whichever you choose, choose quickly and fight your way there.
Stage 2: More powerful undead have appeared, and the hordes now have a purpose - your death. I hope you chose a good location to defend. In the cliffs, you'll find caves, and stockpiles of wood and flammable oil. Have some rogues with you? They can lay some fire traps, but you'll have to protect them while they do. At the fortress, you'll find broken gates that could be repaired. There's even a forge to make the parts. You just need some iron... wait, wasn't there an iron vein just outside the fortress? And finally at the canyon, the observant may notice places where the rocks are loose, and an avalanche or two could be triggered from above. You'll just need to get a person or two up there, and wait for the right moment. Whichever you chose, prepare quickly, because the undead are coming. In fact the first few are probably already on your heels.
Stage 3: As the blood moon reaches it's highest point, a single red ray rises up from the ground to meet it - the source of the curse! Do you venture out of your hiding place to try and stop the undead, or do you remain on the defensive, waiting for dawn when the power of the curse will wane? Surely there is greater glory in the first option, but the choice is yours. Should you choose to stay, you will have to defeat the undead leaders, all making their way towards you. Should you choose to strike out, you may be able to avoid some of them, though it's likely you'll have to fight one or two along the way. And then of course, whatever has caused all this.
Stage 4 (Optional): An ancient altar, surrounded by pedestals set with blood red gems, and guarded by many powerful undead. As you arrive, the red light coalesces into a demon of fire and darkness and rage. It turns its eyes upon you, hungry for your suffering. Fight the demon and its minions, and quickly, before the undead that you avoided reach you. But alas, the wounds you inflict upon it seem to heal as it is bathed in the red light from the gems, focused by the altar. The pedestals must be powering the demon somehow. You could try destroying them, or blocking them, or maybe doing something to the altar itself, and perhaps something would happen.
Why I like this scenario: At every step of the way, your raid has a choice about what to do next. Where do you go to defend? Do you stay there until dawn when the undead crumble back to dust, or do you go after the source? If you went for the source, how do you tackle the final fight? I also like that the way this plays out can go very differently based on the classes and tradeskill professions you have available in your raid. Rogues to set traps, druids or miners to notice avalanche points, crafters to repair gates on the fortress.
You might have read all this and said "wow Neph, that seems like a lot - can't we just have simple raids?" And sure... you can have simple raids. There's nothing wrong with having a simple raid every now and again, something you and your guild can do quickly for a little challenge and some loot. But consider this: *Every* MMORPG on the market has simple raids galore. Very few have truly memorable and unique ones, the kind you tell stories about months later, or where you look forward to going back again so that you can try something different the next time, and not just farm it for loot.
I know what I'd prefer.
CanadinaXegony said:I would STILL like to see a raid boss named after Kilsin "Dream Crusher" :)
i'd like a raid boss designed like a pvp encounter with the the vr team.
chris rowan is a druid
braid mcquaid is a warrior
tim sullivan is a ranger
daniel krenn is a wizard
chris perkins is a summoner
ben dean is a enchanter
and the encounter should be impossible, however, not improbable to do. make the little rats think they can beat the encounter then BAM the players get launched (and you hear their laughter)high into the air instantly dying and their body falls towards the closest graveyard.
I likes the lighting a lot and was thinging that it might be copied by nature. Lighting bugs, smalled little slugs ones with a big feeler that can generate a spark. Ugly but not to harmful. You start to notice then as you enter a dark cave. the farther you enter the cave they become a little larger and a bit more of a spark. Your first encounter of a group goes well but one got a way. As you move on the one that escaped comes back and eats the dead. This causes a large groth spirt in the living one. ( on and on you see how it goes) the end of the cave you find the large Lighting Slug with it host of smaller one. Did you do a clean sweep behind you? How do you killer the smallers ones without letting them feast. Will the large one oneshot you. What do you do?
I could see this being a good encounter.
I'm not sure I have specific requests from Pantheon other than that they be extremely challenging. and fun. So here's a list of some of my favorite boss mechanics:
- The interplay of towers and Flame Leviathan difficulty in Ulduar. I liked that you could make the fight more or less difficult depending on how many and which towers you chose to destroy prior to engaging.
- Boss fights with multiple bosses at once, each with their own mechanics - bonus points if their mechanics interact/synergize in some way. Examples include Assembly of Iron in Ulduar, Ascendant Council in Bastion of Twilight, the various elemental pairs in Datascape, or Phagetech Prototypes or Phageborn Convergence in Genetic Archives. Extra bonus points if the encounter changes regularly, such as with the elemental pairs or with Phageborn Convergence. You never knew which types of pairs or which four of the five possible bosses in Convergence would be up on any given week, and each set meant adjusting strategies.
- Adds that introduce dangerous new mechanics. A good example of this is the adds in Lady Deathwhisper in Icecrown Citadel. They came from all over the room, when they died they still had impact on the fight, the whole reanimating of fallen adds, etc.
- On a similar line, Turn 4 of the Second Coil of Bahamut in FFXIV had a pretty creative add mechanic involving the Golems and meteors. First players had to be careful about placement of meteors that fell (don't want them too close to one another or they'll explode, etc), and then the Golems could be used to "eat" the fallen meteors. However, having a Golem eat a meteor made it much more powerful and dangerous.
- Stuff that forces subgroups of your raid to split off into different areas is always fun, and even better if what the players do in one area affects what players in another area experience. The Twilight Realm mechanic in the Valiona and Theralion fight in Bastion of Twilight is a good example. Another good example is against Avatus in the Datascape, when you have to navigate through a maze and split up your raid group to go into different rooms and handle particular mechanics in those rooms.
- Verticality! Gravitron Operator was a well-loved and feared mini-boss in Genetic Archives in WildStar but a very cool and fun mechanic. The boss manipulated gravity, as the name suggests, and would launch you up into the air, and you needed to control your fall so that you landed in a safe area. Beth'tilac in the Firelands in WoW is another example, where DPS would destroy spiders that dropped down on lines of silk, and then certain players needed to ride up to the web above on those lowered silk lines to deal with boss mechanics. In the same raid, Alysrazor had an incredibly fun "flying" mechanic.
- The Insanity mechanic when fighting Yogg-Saron in Ulduar. Not only was it thematically appropriate, it kept up a steady anxiety and forced tough decisions throughout the fight (especially if you were doing it with no lights; less so if you had all lights up). It was more than just a stacking debuff, as it affected how you positioned yourself and how you interacted with every other mechanic of the fight.
- Allagan Rot in Turn 2 of the Binding Coil of Bahamut in FFXIV. It was a debuff that went out on a random player and ticked down. Players had to pass it on to another person (by running near/through them) before the timer reached 0 or the Rot would explode and wipe the raid. You couldn't just pass it back and forth, because players who previously had Rot got another debuff that would be an instant wipe if they got Rot again, so you had to very carefully rotate who had Rot and who you were passing it to next.
- Destructible boss areas! X-89 in Genetic Archives is an excellent example, especially since which platform X-89 destroyed with each attack was somewhat controllable by the tank's positioning. There was another destruction mechanic in that fight that targeted individual players and would destroy the platform beneath the targeted player's feet. Keeps pressure on the raid group (you don't want to run out of area to fight on), forces some quick thinking in positioning (especially to deal with directional attacks and when you got targeted with the bomb).
- Controling boss movement in unique ways. Lord Rhyolith in the Firelands comes immediately to mind. DPS had to very carefully control which leg received more or less damage to control what direction Rhyolith moved (he would turn toward the side that was receiving more damage). This controlled movement was critical to other mechanics of the fight, such as getting Rhyolith to walk over volcanoes that spawned to destroy them and break his armor, or to keep him away from the edge of the arena where he would start throwing lava everywhere.
- Boss attacks telegraphed through animation rather than a graphic. For example, a giant lifts up an arm to slam it down onto the ground - you better not be standing where that arm is going to strike! These kinds of mechanics are fun, because they require one to pay careful attention to not just your party, debuffs, your action bars, etc, but also the animations of the boss you're fighting. This was common in MMOs like TERA, but I've seen it used in others as well - even WoW (e.g. dragon tail swipes) and FFXIV.
- Creative encounter locations. Fighting a creature that is hundreds of times your size? It makes sense that at least part of the encounter would take place actually ON the body of that creature - e.g. Spine of Deathwing, where you fight directly on Deathwing's back. Even better if climbing up/down/accessing different body parts is built organically into the fight.
I have to get back to work, so I'll leave my list there. I'm sure I've left out tons of really fun mechanics that I've enjoyed, but oh well. xD
Nephele said:Neph's thoughts:
..scenarios...
The 10th Coldain Ring event was a scenario type encounter. Loved that event though, like all content ever introduced, once you learned the script it was laughably easy to defeat. So wether you package up an encounter as 'scenario' or 'raid', to keep the content interesting and challenging for as long as possible there must be variables. It is these variables where the encounter can be different from one occurance to the next (within reason as you cannot have 100% randomness).
Bosses do become predictable.
However, PRotF has a Disposition system.... perhaps bosses could spawn that are of different dispositions?
This way the encounter could randomize to a certain degree.
One time it may summon reinforcements, another may go super aggro from the onset, another may go all rogue on the party with high evasion and spiky damage, etc...
I entirely agree with Nephele.
I would add (and Nephele may very well disagree) that at least a few of these elaborate encounters might work better if partly instanced.
To keep the social/open world aspects of Pantheon, what I mean is traditional dungeons or landscape raid areas that are *not* instanced but when a raid succeeds in getting to the bottom of the dungeon or the center of the raid territory overcoming both mobs and any competing players - they then go into an instance for the final fight or series of fights.
This will allow VR to script things properly for a raid - not a raid with 20 other players interfering in the finale.
Yes I know they do not currently intend to use instances but if they decide that in a few limited situations instances do add value I will applaud their ...flexibility. As long as there are not *more* than a few of them.
vjek said:Sounds great until the Limited Action Set prevents you from adapting to the disposition, because you're in combat already, and can't change anything. :)
That's kind of the point. It causes you to make a decision. Plan for many eventualities and be less optimised, or plan for only one and be super optimised for it.
vjek said:... You can't plan for it. You're in combat. There's nothing to change or plan. You just get to fail. "many eventualities" with 12 abilities? Super optimised for one? When you know there is going to be many? That's... not how this will work.
vjek, you are quite right. Adapting cannot happen if the combat lock preventing you from changing skills/abilities as the situation warrants. Personally I always felt that the time neede to remove a spell/ability and add a new one was sufficient enough of a risk especially when, at higher levels, that switch took quite a few seconds.
The ability to adjust in combat is quite different from having all your spells/abilities immediately available on multiple hotbars. That I do not support.
stellarmind said:CanadinaXegony said:I would STILL like to see a raid boss named after Kilsin "Dream Crusher" :)
i'd like a raid boss designed like a pvp encounter with the the vr team.
chris rowan is a druid
braid mcquaid is a warrior
tim sullivan is a ranger
daniel krenn is a wizard
chris perkins is a summoner
ben dean is a enchanter
and the encounter should be impossible, however, not improbable to do. make the little rats think they can beat the encounter then BAM the players get launched (and you hear their laughter)high into the air instantly dying and their body falls towards the closest graveyard.
Sounds like a GM event...which used to happen in old EQ...in the beginning. I too would like to see GM events along with Neph's suggestion about player generated events...raids what have you.
Cana
dorotea said:I entirely agree with Nephele.
I would add (and Nephele may very well disagree) that at least a few of these elaborate encounters might work better if partly instanced.
To keep the social/open world aspects of Pantheon, what I mean is traditional dungeons or landscape raid areas that are *not* instanced but when a raid succeeds in getting to the bottom of the dungeon or the center of the raid territory overcoming both mobs and any competing players - they then go into an instance for the final fight or series of fights.
This will allow VR to script things properly for a raid - not a raid with 20 other players interfering in the finale.
Yes I know they do not currently intend to use instances but if they decide that in a few limited situations instances do add value I will applaud their ...flexibility. As long as there are not *more* than a few of them.
There was a hint or suggestion that once your team got down to the Boss and the team was inside that room..you had to have a key to get in there..and the door locked behind you. Aradune demonstrated that in one of the livestreams...but almost locked the team out behind him. hehehe
Cana
I feel one of the worst mistakes made was making different difficulties for raids, for example; World of Warcraft had it right up until the ending of WoTLK. They decided it would be a great idea to add 25 man/10 man normal, heroic, then eventually mythic in MoP. I felt it defeated the purpose of even raiding. Everyone felt that there was no need to do Mythic raids when you could get "decent" gear without having to raid harder difficulties. Everyone should at least have a shot at raiding harder dungeons/raids without the fear of not having the "gearscore" or "item level" to do so. It should always come down to how the boss is fought and the teamwork it takes to defeat it, as opposed to facerolling your keyboard and wether or not you're in the top 5 dps charts on the fight. Mechanics are everything, gear shouldn't be to an extent. I'd like to see multiple target type bosses, and switching between the ones that are important while the other targets are still throwing mechanics at the group.