Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Dungeon finders, player spam in chat..

    • 1785 posts
    June 4, 2019 12:19 PM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:

    Chanus said:

    That's my whole point. The idea that "your name means something" doesn't actually matter and never has. People who are bad actors are totally fine with their name meaning something.

     

    But it did back in the day with EQ1. No way to change your name, taking 6-12 months to get to max level. Taking sometimes years to get your AAs to raiding level. Getting blackballed by a guild and guilds used to talk back in the day. Having to dump a char that had a bad name and reroll a new char was a huge investment in time. I hope Pantheon brings that back. 

    I want to chime in on this.

    I think that there is a very small percentage of MMO players who get their enjoyment from getting reactions out of others.  And there is a subset of those people who like negative reactions.  If they can make someone rage, or do something that gets them yelled at, they're giggling about it the whole time.

    But the people who really thrive on that and do it day in and day out are a tiny, tiny minority.

    There are many other players however who will occasionally dip into that territory because they see someone else doing it and think "hey that's funny".  Those folks don't usually stop or think twice unless and until they have been shown that there are consequences for doing that.  Several stories:

    1) In LOTRO, my girlfriend at the time and a bunch of her guildmates once got their accounts suspended for two weeks for spamming AoEs in a crafting area.  It started off as a joke by one person, and escalated when they saw people running around confused as to what was going on.  This prompted more of them to join in, and they kept at it for an hour or so until someone finally filed a complaint with the GM.  The GM came in invisible, saw what was going on, and promptly kicked the lot of them and slapped them with a two week suspension.  When I got home that day from work, she was completely distraught over what happened and kept saying "but we were just having fun, we were all laughing, we didn't even think that it was a bad thing".  When she and her guildmates got their accounts back, they completely changed their ways.

    2) In FFXIV, I have a guild member that got his first account banned for basically being a jerk (this was before he joined the guild).  Trolling, harassing, explicit character names, etc.  When he opened the second account 6 months later and applied to join our guild, he was up front about it.  He said to us "hey, I did these things, and in hindsight I regret them, and if I ever slip back into that behavior I totally understand that you will kick me in a heartbeat."  Today, while he still has trouble sometimes when he gets angry or upset over something, he tries really hard to be a model guild member.

    3) In EQ, my guild was part of an alliance with four other guilds to enable raiding.  We shared two lists with each other outside of raid stuff - people who we met that were really awesome, and people who we met that were really terrible.  At one point, someone that we had on the "bad" list was trying to apply to one of the allied guilds.  They turned him down.  He asked why, and they told him, "we've heard about you, you have a reputation".  He tried to apply to a different guild, the told him the same thing.  He paid for a character name change, but we picked up on it (he used the same surname), and the third guild he applied to said no as well.  He eventually ended up leaving the server altogether.

    4) In Vanguard, my guild ran serverwide events.  We were trying to be a positive influence on the community, so we had a policy of allowing anyone to attend our events, regardless of their guild or reputation, as long as they behaved themselves while they were there.  Our events were big enough there was usually a GM around watching if things got out of hand (even if they didn't tell us they were there).  On more than one occasion, after running an event, we had some of these players with questionable reputations actually contact us and say things like "I never really thought the community mattered before I came to this, and now I feel a little bad about some of the things I've done.  Thank you for letting me be part of it."  Usually they'd go on to ask if they could contribute to the next event by donating a prize or something.

    So yes, there are some people who always will be bad, but many people will learn from their mistakes - and knowing that their reputation is at risk really does act as a deterrent for many people, although sometimes they have to get burned first to see that.  In the years I've been playing MMOs, while I've certainly seen some people that are just beyond all hope, I've also seen people that have grown and changed and become better, both as a result of positive influences from the community, as well as from negative consequences to their bad behavior.  I don't think we should downplay how important that is.

    I realize this is tangental to the discussion around what an LFG tool should or should not do, but since you all were talking about player reputation, I wanted to add it as food for thought.

    • 249 posts
    June 6, 2019 5:58 AM PDT
    All you need is /who lfg or /who all lfg. It's that simple. Everything else can be accomplished with conversation
    • 372 posts
    June 6, 2019 7:35 AM PDT

    Ashvaild said: All you need is /who lfg or /who all lfg. It's that simple. Everything else can be accomplished with conversation

    Too much a bother for today's gamer. Look how long this thread is. We must adapt to the times my friend. 

    • 441 posts
    June 6, 2019 7:56 AM PDT

    Ashvaild said: All you need is /who lfg or /who all lfg. It's that simple. Everything else can be accomplished with conversation

     

    Few problems with that. Your helping a guildie while you try and find a group in a lower level area. So do you A. Make LFG game wide or B. For Zones only? 

     

    Game wide means you need to sift through allot of info, from that level 10 guy looking for a duo, right up to the high level areas. What about all the trial account playing for free up to level 10, do they not get to look for a group to lower spam? Thats not going to give them the Pantheon experience. Few hundreds people LFG at any moment will make it allot of info to read and try and filter. For people like me, who are dyslexic, that’s a huge pain.

    Zone wide only: Now that guildie you were helping does not get your help because helping him means you can't yell LFG in the zone you want to play. Your also stuck in the zone LFG with maybe nothing to do. Thats how you make a game tedious. Also now you are missing openings in other areas of the world. 

    You can still have a LFG chat but something that lets you check a few boxes for filters makes finding teams less of a pain and down time in any game quickly makes people look for other things to do, like play other games. You dont have to use it but in a modern day, its a NEEDED system and the LFG window dose not even need to make your teams. Can just be a filter. Looking for a healer your level. Search and see the 5 options, right click name and send a tell. We are here, want to join us? They say yes. Right click name to invite. This is needed


    This post was edited by Nanfoodle at June 6, 2019 8:03 AM PDT
    • 9 posts
    June 6, 2019 8:10 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    Tigersin said:

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Dungeon finders, player spam in chat, dedicated group/raid forums or something else entirely, how do you prefer to form or join groups in-game? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    -

    No dungeon finders

    No in-game techy 'build-a-group' features

    No social 'do-it-for-me' features

    Player spam in chat is fine with me

     

    the pros of not having dungeon finder is forming more meaningful companionship.  the cons is it takes time. from a dev point of view, this usually creates a steady player base at the cost volume because players that don't have time or aren't good at socializing can't get a group.  vice versa if you had a group finder.

     

    keep it stupid simple.  i'm a simple man and when i start seeing all kinds of bells and whistles i get turned off.

     

    I completely agree dungeon finders / group finders ruin what the devs are trying to acomplish here a game that makes people create social bonds, this is what made early EQ so legendary, not oh wow the graphics are amazing! It was all about WE did this and it was amazing!

    Also take into thought the simple mechanics that are put in place. lets take... wizard teleportation for exsample.  while i know pop ultimetly was the ruin for it  think of what would have happened to that delecate thought out mechanic if a dungeon finder was added?

    Good things take time, you delete that and you end up with a stale community where no one really knows anyone and there is no reason too.  I'm tellin ya, they do this and it will just be one more step to being a toxic community, so you cant get it now.. so what? it makes it that much better when you do get it.  

    No one takes time to enjoy simple things anymore and that is a shame.  I mean take how eq is now.. and from someone like me who was around when kunark was fresh and new  vs what it is now, and i gotta say, it just isint what it use to be.  Hell even world of warcraft when it first came out didnt have a dungeon finder and let me tell you.  It made the game awsome!  poor warlocks....


    This post was edited by kiljoe at June 6, 2019 8:35 AM PDT
    • 441 posts
    June 6, 2019 9:00 AM PDT

    kiljoe said:

    stellarmind said:

    Tigersin said:

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Dungeon finders, player spam in chat, dedicated group/raid forums or something else entirely, how do you prefer to form or join groups in-game? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    -

    No dungeon finders

    No in-game techy 'build-a-group' features

    No social 'do-it-for-me' features

    Player spam in chat is fine with me

     

    the pros of not having dungeon finder is forming more meaningful companionship.  the cons is it takes time. from a dev point of view, this usually creates a steady player base at the cost volume because players that don't have time or aren't good at socializing can't get a group.  vice versa if you had a group finder.

     

    keep it stupid simple.  i'm a simple man and when i start seeing all kinds of bells and whistles i get turned off.

     

    I completely agree dungeon finders / group finders ruin what the devs are trying to acomplish here a game that makes people create social bonds, this is what made early EQ so legendary, not oh wow the graphics are amazing! It was all about WE did this and it was amazing!

    Also take into thought the simple mechanics that are put in place. lets take... wizard teleportation for exsample.  while i know pop ultimetly was the ruin for it  think of what would have happened to that delecate thought out mechanic if a dungeon finder was added?

    Good things take time, you delete that and you end up with a stale community where no one really knows anyone and there is no reason too.  I'm tellin ya, they do this and it will just be one more step to being a toxic community, so you cant get it now.. so what? it makes it that much better when you do get it.  

    No one takes time to enjoy simple things anymore and that is a shame.  I mean take how eq is now.. and from someone like me who was around when kunark was fresh and new  vs what it is now, and i gotta say, it just isint what it use to be.  Hell even world of warcraft when it first came out didnt have a dungeon finder and let me tell you.  It made the game awsome!  poor warlocks....

     

    Dungeon finder in WoW did not break the game. The removal of your name meaning something is what broke that game. Players became classes. Making something cross server to find a team where you could just poof into obscurity let people not care. That’s what needs to be kept out of Pantheon. System auto making teams is not helpful. Having a LFG window that let you filter by level and class and what type of team you are looking for, that does not auto form a group is needed. So you can search for that tank you need, healer or CCer. See the names and level of these players and the ability in the LFG window to click their name and pitch them on what you are doing. LFG spam is backwards and unhelpful. It does not make friends, it’s the game you play that makes friends. Playing with people on your server makes friends. This type of systems also help small guilds grow by getting to know more people that are like minded. Large guilds do not need a LFG helper. Saving people time so they can play and make friends, that’s the kind of tools we NEED.

    • 372 posts
    June 6, 2019 9:08 AM PDT

    Nanfoodle said:

    Dungeon finder in WoW did not break the game. The removal of your name meaning something is what broke that game. Players became classes. Making something cross server to find a team where you could just poof into obscurity let people not care. That’s what needs to be kept out of Pantheon. System auto making teams is not helpful. Having a LFG window that let you filter by level and class and what type of team you are looking for, that does not auto form a group is needed. So you can search for that tank you need, healer or CCer. See the names and level of these players and the ability in the LFG window to click their name and pitch them on what you are doing. LFG spam is backwards and unhelpful. It does not make friends, it’s the game you play that makes friends. Playing with people on your server makes friends. This type of systems also help small guilds grow by getting to know more people that are like minded. Large guilds do not need a LFG helper. Saving people time so they can play and make friends, that’s the kind of tools we NEED.

    I mean, despite being in the quote somewhere, I agree with what you write here. I've since come to agree with others that a simple group finder would be useful. Some people love to see the spam. I just think it's fun to have that going on even if I don't jump in on it. Overall some LFG tool is needed and they have already explained their intent to give us one (that even allows for us to provide info about the type of person for which we're looking).


    This post was edited by Tigersin at June 6, 2019 9:10 AM PDT
    • 297 posts
    June 6, 2019 11:21 AM PDT

    I really don't understand this idea that you can't possibly just remember someone's name if they are on a different server.

    I don't even necessarily want cross-server grouping, but the idea that cross-server grouping destroys a community is just complete nonsense to me. The whole "your name means something" conceit is complete bunk. Trolls and bad actors have existed in multi-player games as long as there have been multi-player games. They aren't some new invention created out of thin air since WoW introduced a dungeon finder.

    All we really need is a simple LFG tool window with filters for level and maybe zone or desired content anyway.

    • 103 posts
    June 7, 2019 12:42 PM PDT
    Please No group finders!!!, Please No EASY BUTTON, I believe you should have to realy look hard and put your name out there in chat. While this is not convenient it realy realy helps build strong bonds between people, all I need is a simple little tag that says LFG and a world chat channel and im happy.
    • 370 posts
    June 7, 2019 2:56 PM PDT

    Laneir said: Please No group finders!!!, Please No EASY BUTTON, I believe you should have to realy look hard and put your name out there in chat. While this is not convenient it realy realy helps build strong bonds between people, all I need is a simple little tag that says LFG and a world chat channel and im happy.

     

    How does someone doing /shout 30 Cleric LFG build strong bonds? How is /who all 30 cleric lfg and getting a list in chat of players some how acceptable but making a UI that show the same information an "easy button"? A UI showing the same list that would be spouted out in the chat window is somehow easy mode? You still need to message people.

     

    No one is asking for Dungeon Finder like WoW or Duty Finder like FFXIV. You can't have that in a non instanced MMO. What people are looking for is a UI enhancement. 

     

    I think Kilsin did this topic a disservice by calling it Dunegon Finder when LFG windows existed in WoW and EQ long before the Dungeon Finder and means a completely different thing to most gmaers. 


    This post was edited by EppE at June 7, 2019 2:58 PM PDT
    • 103 posts
    June 7, 2019 4:33 PM PDT
    Killsin said Community Debate - Dungeon finders, player spam in chat, dedicated group/raid forums or something else entirely, how do you prefer to form or join groups in-game? #MMORPG #communitymatters

    Laneir said: Please No group finders!!!, Please No EASY BUTTON, I believe you should have to realy look hard and put your name out there in chat. While this is not convenient it realy realy helps build strong bonds between people, all I need is a simple little tag that says LFG and a world chat channel and im happy.

    Going to world chat an untold amout of times puting together pickup raids for Labs of Lord Vimm, Built up our guild gave me a raidforce that went on to great things and the entire server knew my name after that. Name recognition. As far as UI goes again a lfg tag is fine by me.

    • 441 posts
    June 10, 2019 9:35 AM PDT

    Chanus said:

    I really don't understand this idea that you can't possibly just remember someone's name if they are on a different server.

    I don't even necessarily want cross-server grouping, but the idea that cross-server grouping destroys a community is just complete nonsense to me. The whole "your name means something" conceit is complete bunk. Trolls and bad actors have existed in multi-player games as long as there have been multi-player games. They aren't some new invention created out of thin air since WoW introduced a dungeon finder.

    All we really need is a simple LFG tool window with filters for level and maybe zone or desired content anyway.

     

    Because someone asks like a jerk, rips off the team with some loot from a drop and if they are from another server how does that impact them? You cant look them up and tell their guild leader what they did. If they do that over and over people on your server will remember their name and not invite them. Cross server group finders are a plague on any gaming community. Find someone on your server with a group finder, you can add them to your friends or ingnore list. Their actions impact their game play latter. 


    This post was edited by Nanfoodle at June 10, 2019 9:38 AM PDT