decarsul said:Chanus said:I think "I don't like this" --SNIP--
In the end, both are opinions, and both are requested by the topic starter. People saying 'i don't like this' is as legitimate as thinking it is not.
yes, it is legitimate response, but quantifying such a reply aides in discussion and overall leads to a better product for all. :)
Fulton said:decarsul said:Chanus said:I think "I don't like this" --SNIP--
In the end, both are opinions, and both are requested by the topic starter. People saying 'i don't like this' is as legitimate as thinking it is not.
yes, it is legitimate response, but quantifying such a reply aides in discussion and overall leads to a better product for all. :)
There's a difference between "I don't like this, how can we make it better?" and "I don't like this, so it should never be in a game even if other people find it useful", though.
A lot of old Everquest diehards too often espouse the latter instead of the former. I played Everquest from 1999 until 2008, and have recently started playing again, but I can fully recognize that not everything Everquest did was good game design just because I loved Everquest in 1999.
Chanus said:Fulton said:decarsul said:Chanus said:I think "I don't like this" --SNIP--
In the end, both are opinions, and both are requested by the topic starter. People saying 'i don't like this' is as legitimate as thinking it is not.
yes, it is legitimate response, but quantifying such a reply aides in discussion and overall leads to a better product for all. :)
There's a difference between "I don't like this, how can we make it better?" and "I don't like this, so it should never be in a game even if other people find it useful", though.
A lot of old Everquest diehards too often espouse the latter instead of the former. I played Everquest from 1999 until 2008, and have recently started playing again, but I can fully recognize that not everything Everquest did was good game design just because I loved Everquest in 1999.
Some things should never be in an MMO...lol.
Chanus said:Trasak said:On a side note I see no reason that the LFG tool could not be a server setting. I see a very vocal subset of players that want a very bare bones, low QoL, highly punishing gaming experience. Rather than forcing a one size fits all we might as well have the LFG tool turned off on the same server that teleporting, auction houses and global chat channels are turned off and simple guild controls, high death penalty and the most brutal corpse recovery mechanics are turned on.These people are a much smaller minority than they think, and while ignoring QoL additions so they can play the game they want is a choice they can easily make, prohibiting QoL additions so they can have the game they want severely limits the playerbase in a way that doesn't actually improve a game.
I would tend to agree that the barebones/hardcore demographic is fairly small, at least for long term play, but that does not invalidate their preference in my mind. In a competitive open world any QoL tool you choose not to use, the further you are behind on the competitive curve. For the gameplay of no QoL tools to be valid it must be universal for the entire server otherwise you are dealing with an uneven playing field.
With how technology works now it should not be too hard to have multiple niche servers launch without much of an increased hardware investment. Basically set the different options up and let people vote with their play time. Unpopular servers will wither and possibly be merged with a similar one or left virtually empty. What I do not agree with is the barebones/hardcore players trying to mandate that no servers have those features because it “dilutes the value of their achievements” or some such other non-sense.
Trasak said:I would tend to agree that the barebones/hardcore demographic is fairly small, at least for long term play, but that does not invalidate their preference in my mind. In a competitive open world any QoL tool you choose not to use, the further you are behind on the competitive curve. For the gameplay of no QoL tools to be valid it must be universal for the entire server otherwise you are dealing with an uneven playing field.With how technology works now it should not be too hard to have multiple niche servers launch without much of an increased hardware investment. Basically set the different options up and let people vote with their play time. Unpopular servers will wither and possibly be merged with a similar one or left virtually empty. What I do not agree with is the barebones/hardcore players trying to mandate that no servers have those features because it “dilutes the value of their achievements” or some such other non-sense.
I am always a proponent of more options that people can choose to use or not use. If the option is there in a competitive game and you choose not to use it, you're making that choice. In this specific case, nobody who is interested in racing content is going to be successful if they have to rely on finding pickup groups in the first place, so it would be a moot point.
I don't have any real opposition to the idea of different ruleset servers as long as the resources are available and don't detract from other aspects of development. If it's a choice between setting up a server with no DF/LFG but not getting other content developed, or simply letting people who insist on not having these things just choose not to use them, I will absolutely support the latter over the former.
Well, there won't be instances or any teleporting dungeon finders at all. Sooo we are good on that. The only thing that they will probably implement is something of a lfg screen where you can find people in your level range to group with and then will have to physically travel to the dungeon you guys decide to do.
Chanus said:Trasak said:I would tend to agree that the barebones/hardcore demographic is fairly small, at least for long term play, but that does not invalidate their preference in my mind. In a competitive open world any QoL tool you choose not to use, the further you are behind on the competitive curve. For the gameplay of no QoL tools to be valid it must be universal for the entire server otherwise you are dealing with an uneven playing field.With how technology works now it should not be too hard to have multiple niche servers launch without much of an increased hardware investment. Basically set the different options up and let people vote with their play time. Unpopular servers will wither and possibly be merged with a similar one or left virtually empty. What I do not agree with is the barebones/hardcore players trying to mandate that no servers have those features because it “dilutes the value of their achievements” or some such other non-sense.
I am always a proponent of more options that people can choose to use or not use. If the option is there in a competitive game and you choose not to use it, you're making that choice. In this specific case, nobody who is interested in racing content is going to be successful if they have to rely on finding pickup groups in the first place, so it would be a moot point.
I don't have any real opposition to the idea of different ruleset servers as long as the resources are available and don't detract from other aspects of development. If it's a choice between setting up a server with no DF/LFG but not getting other content developed, or simply letting people who insist on not having these things just choose not to use them, I will absolutely support the latter over the former.
Lol, what's "competitive" about an MMORPG?
Competing against people that aren't competing.
Chanus said:Fulton said:decarsul said:Chanus said:I think "I don't like this" --SNIP--
In the end, both are opinions, and both are requested by the topic starter. People saying 'i don't like this' is as legitimate as thinking it is not.
yes, it is legitimate response, but quantifying such a reply aides in discussion and overall leads to a better product for all. :)
There's a difference between "I don't like this, how can we make it better?" and "I don't like this, so it should never be in a game even if other people find it useful", though.
A lot of old Everquest diehards too often espouse the latter instead of the former. I played Everquest from 1999 until 2008, and have recently started playing again, but I can fully recognize that not everything Everquest did was good game design just because I loved Everquest in 1999.
where is overseer kilsin? this is a clear violation of general rule 6. thanos snap make it happen!
^ Not to make it overly-burdensome or anything, but why would you make everything soo convienent for the core of the game? Sounds like you don't want a game then really. If it is convienent all the time in the core aspect of the game. Wouldn't that make the game a little too easy then?
Zorkon said:Chanus said:Trasak said:I would tend to agree that the barebones/hardcore demographic is fairly small, at least for long term play, but that does not invalidate their preference in my mind. In a competitive open world any QoL tool you choose not to use, the further you are behind on the competitive curve. For the gameplay of no QoL tools to be valid it must be universal for the entire server otherwise you are dealing with an uneven playing field.With how technology works now it should not be too hard to have multiple niche servers launch without much of an increased hardware investment. Basically set the different options up and let people vote with their play time. Unpopular servers will wither and possibly be merged with a similar one or left virtually empty. What I do not agree with is the barebones/hardcore players trying to mandate that no servers have those features because it “dilutes the value of their achievements” or some such other non-sense.
I am always a proponent of more options that people can choose to use or not use. If the option is there in a competitive game and you choose not to use it, you're making that choice. In this specific case, nobody who is interested in racing content is going to be successful if they have to rely on finding pickup groups in the first place, so it would be a moot point.
I don't have any real opposition to the idea of different ruleset servers as long as the resources are available and don't detract from other aspects of development. If it's a choice between setting up a server with no DF/LFG but not getting other content developed, or simply letting people who insist on not having these things just choose not to use them, I will absolutely support the latter over the former.
Lol, what's "competitive" about an MMORPG?
Competing against people that aren't competing.
Every time you roll against a party member on an item you are competing. For this statement though the competing I am referring to is competing for resources not in some e-sport way. Most of the QoL tools make it easier to get and keep resources by increasing time and material efficiency and general availability. If there are also a limited quantity of resources available on a server then those who use the QoL tools will gain a larger percentage over those that do not than their relative to their server population percentage.
I consider that competing, you might use another term.
Watemper said:^ Not to make it overly-burdensome or anything, but why would you make everything soo convienent for the core of the game? Sounds like you don't want a game then really. If it is convienent all the time in the core aspect of the game. Wouldn't that make the game a little too easy then?
Finding a group should absolutely be convenient. The challenge of the game should never be whether or not you're able to actually engage with it in the first place.
The challenge should be the content itself.
Trasak said:Every time you roll against a party member on an item you are competing. For this statement though the competing I am referring to is competing for resources not in some e-sport way. Most of the QoL tools make it easier to get and keep resources by increasing time and material efficiency and general availability. If there are also a limited quantity of resources available on a server then those who use the QoL tools will gain a larger percentage over those that do not than their relative to their server population percentage.I consider that competing, you might use another term.
The game isn't really responsible for you choosing whether or not to use the tools available. There needs to be a better reason for not including a QoL improvement than simply it not being fair to people who choose not to use it.
Watemper said:Well, there won't be instances or any teleporting dungeon finders at all. Sooo we are good on that. The only thing that they will probably implement is something of a lfg screen where you can find people in your level range to group with and then will have to physically travel to the dungeon you guys decide to do.
also should have some kind of distance from group option. some groups would rather someone that is 2 mins away than 15 mins away. then again i'd rather have a chat feed of someone spamming
[LFG][13:37]stellarmind: lvl 17 enchanter lfg black rose keep waiting outside
[LFG][13:38]stellarmind: lvl 17 enchanter lfg black rose keep waiting outside
[LFG][13:39]stellarmind: lvl 17 enchanter lfg black rose keep waiting outside
[LFG][13:40]stellarmind: lvl 17 enchanter lfg black rose keep waiting outside
[LFG][13:40]leeztor: stop spamming you nnoob no one wants a enchanter scrub
than to see a:
you have que as a enchanter your avg wait time is 15 mins.
i've been waiting for 3 hours picking flowers outside the keep.
[trade][16:40]stellarmind: anyone got room for an enchanter? i'm right outisde black rose keep.
[trade][16:40]tanix: sure we'll pick you up.
[party][16:41]stellarmind: so where are you guys at?
[party[16:41]tanix: we are at 47, 63: 13, 2
[party][16:41]stellarmind: uhh english pls?
[16:43]you have been removed from the group
[whisper][16:43]tanix: you don't have dungeon helper mod so we decided to boot you because we'll just wipe since you don't know when to stop dps, move out the fire, step on the stones in the right sequence and when to throw the switches for the encounters.
[whisper][16:43]stellarmind: dungeon helper is for mindless idiots
[16:43]you have been invited to tanix's guild
Chanus said:I think "I don't like this" is probably the least legitimate reason to not implement QoL features that others will find useful. If you don't like it, you are completely free to not use it.
An LFG or Dungeon Finder tool would be immensely helpful to people who have limited playtime, are new to the game and haven't formed steady groups, or play at odd hours and don't have the ability to form regular groups with others.
Sometimes I like to leave the possibility of finding a group open while I do other things, like work on Tradeskills or run errands around a town like organizing my bags/bank after a day of playing previously. Throwing up an LFG flag while I do other things is a good way to be found by a group needing me at a time when I may not necessarily be able to actively focus on finding or forming a group.
These are all good options, and each can safely be ignored by someone who just doesn't like them personally.
I don’t like QoL features that make the aquisition of experience and loot easier for players. I don’t like anything thats going to diminish the social aspects of lfg channels and ooc zone channels.
As for the trade skill thing: I First of all don’t want tradeskills to be so simple that if you’re working then you can set up/close down working them in a matter of minutes. Second, the idea that you can travel from town ‘A’ to the dungeon next to town ‘D’ in a matter of minutes without a port from a port class is def Not the game for me.
I strongly believe that all of these aspects of QoL take from the immersion And also the value of achievement.
Spending hours setting up all your regrants for a good 5-10 skill ups is a consuming task. Traveling around the world checking the ooc of dungeons trying to find a group is a daunting task. Completing daunting task contribute greatly to the value invested in characters, thus amplifying immersion- constituting a captivating game vice mindless time waster.
Grime said:I don’t like QoL features that make the aquisition of experience and loot easier for players. I don’t like anything thats going to diminish the social aspects of lfg channels and ooc zone channels.As for the trade skill thing: I First of all don’t want tradeskills to be so simple that if you’re working then you can set up/close down working them in a matter of minutes. Second, the idea that you can travel from town ‘A’ to the dungeon next to town ‘D’ in a matter of minutes without a port from a port class is def Not the game for me.
I strongly believe that all of these aspects of QoL take from the immersion And also the value of achievement.
Spending hours setting up all your regrants for a good 5-10 skill ups is a consuming task. Traveling around the world checking the ooc of dungeons trying to find a group is a daunting task. Completing daunting task contribute greatly to the value invested in characters, thus amplifying immersion- constituting a captivating game vice mindless time waster.
We clearly have fundamentally differing ideas about the definition of the word "fun".
The game you want sounds absolutely abhorrent to me. I want to be able to play a game for an hour or two and feel like I've not just completely wasted my time running from point A to point B. I have a job and adult responsibilities now.
Key takeaway as it relates to this thread:
"The commitment on our part that if we are making a game where most of the content is being built around grouping that we facilitate finding the group, keeping the group together, and making the group turn into relationships that last, that lead to a community, to shared experiences, etc."
This game isn't going to have a dungeon finder tool that teleports people around as WoW did. This game will have a variety of other tools that help players find a group, keep it together, and help build lasting relationships. One of the key differentiators for Pantheon compared to other MMO's is having an emphasis on player interdependence. A robust LFG tool has already been promised. If people don't want to utilize it, that's their own business.
Chanus said:We clearly have fundamentally differing ideas about the definition of the word "fun".
The game you want sounds absolutely abhorrent to me. I want to be able to play a game for an hour or two and feel like I've not just completely wasted my time running from point A to point B. I have a job and adult responsibilities now.
How did you waste your time if you made it to point B? There’s lots of zones along the way, same banter in /ooc as we’re having here- plenty to entertain along your journeys. Let’s say you don’t make it, a named giant one shots you- now you know where the names giant roams, all is still not yet a waste of time.
I have those real life things as well- but what’s a worse argument: I don’t like it OR I don’t have time for it?
oneADseven said:Key takeaway as it relates to this thread:
"The commitment on our part that if we are making a game where most of the content is being built around grouping that we facilitate finding the group, keeping the group together, and making the group turn into relationships that last, that lead to a community, to shared experiences, etc."This game isn't going to have a dungeon finder tool that teleports people around as WoW did. This game will have a variety of other tools that help players find a group, keep it together, and help build lasting relationships. One of the key differentiators for Pantheon compared to other MMO's is having an emphasis on player interdependence. A robust LFG tool has already been promised. If people don't want to utilize it, that's their own business.
wow was like the high school sweetheart that would go anywhere and do anything. then she changed when activision turned her into a cash shop, mount collecting, pet battle, theme park, dungeon menu queing, never leaving the town, 15 dollar shake down, gold buying, afk in raids, macroing, mod draping, segregated disconnected mmorpg but not really mmo game because you don't talk to anyone during the dungeon or raid lfg.
and no im not going to play classic.
right general rule 6. yes i believe that you need some type of lfg tool(although i'd rather not use it to form my groups. it's too formal for my tastes). usually i like to see what kind of quirky advertisments i see in lfg chat. i remember someone spamming hi i'm dps and i've been in que for 1 hr 36 mins and 14-15 secs now. please inv me to your group and me shall luv you long time.
great player btw. too bad the waifu and kids took him away =(
speaking of kids i remember one guy saying my baby is asleep and i only have 1 hour maybe plz inv me now i'm filthy dps just like my daughter's diapers i'll sh8t on the dps meters. there were some good ones then. until the lfg tools took them away. =(
Grime said:Chanus said:We clearly have fundamentally differing ideas about the definition of the word "fun".
The game you want sounds absolutely abhorrent to me. I want to be able to play a game for an hour or two and feel like I've not just completely wasted my time running from point A to point B. I have a job and adult responsibilities now.
How did you waste your time if you made it to point B? There’s lots of zones along the way, same banter in /ooc as we’re having here- plenty to entertain along your journeys. Let’s say you don’t make it, a named giant one shots you- now you know where the names giant roams, all is still not yet a waste of time.
I have those real life things as well- but what’s a worse argument: I don’t like it OR I don’t have time for it?
This is the crucial difference among players and people on these forums. Some people here view getting to the dungeon as much fun as being in the dungeon. Now I admit adversity in getting to the dungeon plays some aspect in making you appreciate the dungeon, but where adversity ends and tedius begins varies greatly depending on the person.
A list of who was looking for a group, by level, and class, has always existed. Moving it from a chat channel to a UI window isn't game breaking. It doesn't alter the fundamentals. It is one of those pure QoL graphical improvements. The information always existed, almost exactly as it did via CLI, but it's been moved to a separate window.
Finding a group and getting to a group are two different things. Finding a group should be extremely intuitive and easy... that is assuming a group needs a player and you fit that criteria. If a group is out there looking for a 35 Rogue and I'm a 35 Rogue looking for a group there should be a system in place to put us in touch with one another. We can discuss how to bring the "physical" players in contact with each other in another thread as that has been beaten to death.
This doesn't prevent you from sitting in a zone and /ooc 35 Rogue LFG or /ooc GY LF1M DPS. It doesn't prevent you from /whisper JoeTank hey can I get on your list 35 Rogue. What it does is take existing information and presents it in a window.
Tigersin said:stellarmind said:where is overseer kilsin? this is a clear violation of general rule 6. thanos snap make it happen!
HE IS BUT ONE MAN IN A FAR AWAY LAND...
what if overseer kilsin scanned his brain, created an ai that acts in his stead and carries on his will in the digital space? oh boy we breaking general rule 6 man. he comes the thanos snap.