Forums » The Dire Lord

Cool stream

    • 131 posts
    April 26, 2019 7:58 AM PDT
    What did u guys thank about what Joppa said that the warriors where the mega tank in both dps and defence
    • 467 posts
    April 26, 2019 11:34 AM PDT

    What is the quote from Joppa?

    I found: "The warrior represents kind a the battlefield commander. I mean, they certainly are the strongest, physically strongest, of the physical based classes when it comes to combat. They're using melee weapons and stuff but they also have that battlefield commanders aspect to them."

    I don't recall the dps + defense comment.


    This post was edited by Tigersin at April 26, 2019 11:37 AM PDT
    • 131 posts
    April 26, 2019 11:59 AM PDT

    Deleted


    This post was edited by Raidil at April 26, 2019 12:03 PM PDT
    • 131 posts
    April 26, 2019 12:02 PM PDT
    At 2110 he say there unparalleled in defense and thin he make your comment u posted and talks so..
    • 467 posts
    April 26, 2019 12:17 PM PDT

    To answer your question, 

    I think the Direlord has a bit of an arcane feeling so it's Physical + Arcane.
    I think the Paladin has a bit of a divine feeling so it's Physical + Divine.
    I think the Monk doesn't use the heavy armor and shield and banners and, and, and... it's also classified as only an off-tank and a dps so he isn't meant to have the best defense and doesn't need to be as strong as a warrior.
    So, compared to the above three tanks, I would imagine the warrior being physically stronger as well as more physically strong with defense. Meaning he uses, say, a metal shield instead of a shield conjured from blood.


    This post was edited by Tigersin at April 26, 2019 12:18 PM PDT
    • 264 posts
    April 26, 2019 12:33 PM PDT

    Raidil said: What did u guys thank about what Joppa said that the warriors where the mega tank in both dps and defence

    He did not say that. He did not mean that.

    Warriors like other classes can play different roles depending on the group needs and composition. Warriors via banners and other abilties (and group buffs) could either play as main tank, main assist, or damage dealer if the group does not have a real damage dealer.

    • 44 posts
    April 26, 2019 5:13 PM PDT

    I to was sorta distrought. about this... the warrior while fairly well geared seemed to tank really really well in comparison to previous streams (understood itds been months so who knows) the thing that really bothered me the most is the fact that they said warriors at end game would have the ability to keep 4 banners active at a time. thats crazy.. did anyone else notice the benefits of those banners? trying not to be to hard on the DL class but this ones gonna be hard to beat.  I sure hope they do a revisist of an updated DL class, I really do need a boost of confidence here. im not saying or implying anything... but would really like a comparison... Honestly when they did the last DL stream vs paladin the community one... DL seemed superior. so this could very well be just a progresssion that hasnt been revealed to all the classes and i really hope so because that was hurtful to watch. ( also i know that ((unelss i missed it)) the mobs werent conned so they could have been blue if not green at level 25... ) will rewatch it again another 10 times to nitpick but those are my initial respenses :D

     

    • 240 posts
    April 26, 2019 5:50 PM PDT

    There has been a lot of worry about tank class balance on the forums already, but I don't think it's really something to be concerned about. They've said repeatedly that they're not designing any one tank to be better than the others, and I'm sure they will continue to tune and balance as development progresses so that each will shine in its own unique way.

    • 264 posts
    April 26, 2019 6:22 PM PDT

    I don't think people should be worried or discussed balance at the moment. It is not the time for that. Pre Alpha is time to discuss design! I hope Joppa and VR got ton of feedback in Pre-Alpha because banners feels wrong. Let's read together more about those banners abilities: 

    War Banners

    The Warrior is capable of planting a variety of banners in the ground, providing a wide array of beneficial and detrimental effects to friends and foes nearby.

    Challenger's Banner
    Group - Increases the resource generation rate for the Melee classes in your group.
    Self - Causes your Resilience to replenish automatically at a rate determined by your Constitution.
    Enemies - Your attacks generate additional Hate on enemies in range of this banner.

    Banner of Arms
    Group - Improves the chance to hit with melee attacks.
    Enemies - Your enemies are less likely to dodge your group’s melee attacks when in range of this banner.

    Shieldman's Banner
    Self - Increases the damage reduction of your Shield Block ability.

    Rallying Banner
    Group - Reduces the duration of control effects afflicting members of your group.
    Enemies - Increases the duration of control effects applied by your group on enemies in range of this banner.

    Banner of Onslaught
    Group - Improves the critical strike chance and damage from melee attacks.
    Enemies - Your enemies become more vulnerable to physical damage when in range of this banner.

    Banner of Havoc
    Enemies - Your enemies are less likely to hit with Ranged attacks when in range of this banner.

     

    Most banners at the moment have:

    - a self buff

    - a group buff

    - a AOE debuff

     

    Now, on top of that, warriors can have 4 active banners late game simultaneously. Does this make sense to you? It seems strong, but also cumbersome because basically, it is so strong, that you would have to place your banners each fight. Is that fun? Why would a warrior not be using their maximum number of banners?

    Why banners are doing all those difference things...I do not remember any abilties doing all those difference things... maybe some epic abiltiies could be complex and have many different effects.. but they would have long cooldown or an high cost of resources which is the opposite of those banners that are designed to be used for each encounter. That is weird.

    Either limit the number of banners being active, or redesign them... but I hope I am not going to see each warrior spamming their banners every fight for the whole game.

    I think Banners in general are cool, and I think they look cool in Pantheon even if they feel clutterish at the moment. I feel we would appreciate them more if they were more rare. Either difficult to get/unlock, costly to use, therefore Warrior will have to make important choices whether or not they decide to use their banners. 

    What do you guys think? Isn't weird that an ability provide a self buff, group buff, and debuff all in-one? 

    • 467 posts
    April 26, 2019 7:38 PM PDT

    The quote was physically strongest ... it doesn't have anything to do with being the "best" tank or game balance. A monk, rogue, wizard, etc aren't as physically strong as a warrior but they'll do plenty of damage.  Just don't read too much into these words. It's more of a trait or description than it is a term used to estimate role effectiveness.  Short version: they're not trying to make a best tank - anyone in the TANK role will be able to tank. 

    • 131 posts
    April 26, 2019 7:55 PM PDT
    I know what they said but I know people that's played. And the dire lord could not tank well so they need to work on stuff some place I seen that warriors would have higher ripost deflect they get a skill to boost there armor ac and so far dire Lord's get stuck with heavy chain means we are going to be at a advantage from the start and the warriors get stuff like banners.. I've been told the dire lord is to hard to heal do to how un stable there health is it drops fast do to lower hp. And they take more damage .. thin the Regen taps heal but it's random based on crits so they never know when to heal. I think from all the classes I have seen we Lord's need the more look at.. and ps the monk is considered a dps class like rogue and both rogue and monk can off tank .. cc ish
    • 131 posts
    April 26, 2019 8:01 PM PDT
    Of we could Mt for groups and be a bit higher dose tank I could understand not being a main tank but from what I've seen we are in last place. I'm really worried for us. I was a big time sk in eq start before the 1st expansion and played for 4-5 years i seen that class go from one of the best to just ok Im hoping that's not going to be the case here and sorry if I here xx tank is the strongest it makes me worrie
    • 264 posts
    April 26, 2019 10:05 PM PDT

    Dude relax. Dire Lord will be just fine. There is plenny of time to play them, test them, and tweak numbers.

    Dire Lord will be able to deal damage, and/or tank if they prefer. They will leach a lot and will be very strong in magicial type encounters.   

    • 103 posts
    April 29, 2019 3:47 PM PDT

    I brought up concerns about DL as end game MT way back when all the classes were first announced. I was shouted down by the fanbois who apparently know more than me about end game raiding content in games Pantheon is being derived from: EQ and VG.

    Simply put, end game content is going to require mobs that can one-shot all but the MT, or those encounters won't be challenging enough. As it's currently stacking up, that MT will be a Warrior when attempting end game content. Nobody cares about who tanks in trivial group content, or end game content the 20th time a guild has cleared it. If you want to be the MT the first time your guild steps into the final dungeon for the first time, you will probably need to roll as a Warrior.

    The root cause of this is simply the fact that Warriors will have an easily quantifable mitigation advantage, and self-healing damage after it is taken is not as powerful as mitigating the damage from ever happening at all. A DL can't self heal if one-shotted by a mob that can't one-shot a Warrior, thereby rendering the self-healing useless from an MT point of view.

    There is certainly a case to be made for the DL being the "magic tank" with superior magic mitigation that allows them to MT caster mobs better than Warriors. That's perfectly fine from a game balance perspective as long as 20%-35% of the end game content favors the DL as a "magic tank". Perhaps 1/3 of the content requires the AE tanking of a Paladin, 1/3 requires the physical tanking of the Warrior, and 1/3 requires the magic tanking of the DL. Whether the tanks are balanced through abilities or content, balance is balance.

    It's fine to have 3 equally viable MTs if they are truly all equally viable, either through abilities or content balance. It's fine to have 1 MT class, and 2 "group tank" or "off tank" or "AE tank" classes. What's not fine is selling Warrior/Paladin/DL as equally viable MTs, and then at end game the players find out that's not the case.

     


    This post was edited by nscheffel at April 29, 2019 3:49 PM PDT
    • 264 posts
    April 29, 2019 5:22 PM PDT

    I agree with you. And it is totally okay to have concerns as it will be extremely difficult to design 'equally' 3 classes when each of them will have different abilities and passives. They will not be exactly 'equal' per say, but it does not mean that Paladin and DK will not be able to tank. Perhaps Paladin/DK might even do better than Warriors for certain encounters. Same for the healers, some encounters will be easier to manage with certain classes, and same with DPS, some fights will be much easier for Rogues, others for Wizards. VR had to communicate and aim to deliver 3 classes than can tank. I agree with you, most likely most of the late game raid MT will be Warriors. Perhaps top 1% of both Paladin and DK will play MT for great guilds too, who knows. VR does not think it is an impossible task, Joppa and his team are going to try to design 3 classes than can do the role of the tank in different ways.

    Warrior: Resiliance, banners, high armor 

    Dire Lord: High regen, Life leeach, high HP?

    Paladin: Heals, golden aegis, parry/block

    Dire Lord might be able to magical damage and nuke well but not only. They can steal NPC buffs, and that could be pretty powerful if you remove a powerful boon from a Named and use it for yourself (Edge of Midnight)

    • 1660 posts
    April 30, 2019 1:14 AM PDT

    Honestly it's a bit early to wonder what "end game" is planned, because nothing ensure there will be end game at all.

     

    The fact is, if Endgame is anything like EQ, then the only tank that will be better than the others will be the one with the most Health and the flat mitigation associated (not armor, but flat damage reduction).

     

    In this design, neither the warrior's resilience, the DL's mail and HP leech, and the paladin's self healings will have any importance at all, because none of them will mitigate any damage at all.

     

    I fairly don't think dangerous targets will be designed that way, but IF it does like it was in velious end, then none of all thoses little tank"s "flavour" will really matter. Warriors were not kings of tanks in EQ because of armor, but just because they had slight higher HP, couldn't roll a 20 in damage formula (1-19 only), and had a high uptime of defensive stance allowing a roll of a few warriors to optimize damage taken.

    • 131 posts
    May 1, 2019 2:15 PM PDT
    My concern is getting a group as much as end game I have heard the dire Lord's are super hard to heal right now there life is to spike change if we end up with more hp than the other tanks but last stream I seen and compare to dl of same lv the warriors own. So it comes down to hopefully people are vocieing this to VR in pa I'm half tempted to to go vip just to have a voice for the class
    • 131 posts
    May 1, 2019 2:17 PM PDT
    I really hope we are not so week tanking that we can be replaced by a monk or rouge who have defence abilities that let them off tank.
    • 467 posts
    May 1, 2019 4:33 PM PDT

    You really should relax and enjoy this as your main choice. They have plenty of defenses and built-in magic resist. What the warrior has in physicial str, they have more of in magic-psychic-terror juice. They sound very defensive.

    • 2484 posts
    May 1, 2019 4:37 PM PDT

    Spiking health is just something healers would get familiar with to where it's just a known "If the DL has 70%+ HP, let them heal themselves and don't worry about it unless otherwise directed."