Sarim said:Still this debate ;) And I still think that flying mounts very much improve the world immersion. Some of the most spectacular scenery is only seen from above!
I'm currently back in FF14, and they have a really good implementation there: When you enter a zone, you cannot fly right away. You have to unlock the "ether currents", which is done by visiting various spots in the zone and attuning to them. Some currents can only be unlocked by completing quests in the zone...and those quests only become available once you're finished with the story quests in the zone! This means that you have to play through the zone's story "on foot" (or ground mount) before you can fly around there. So there is no "content skipping", you have to go through the zone the way the designers intended it at least once.
But it is a grand reward when you can finally fly around! Here's a few videos of flying around different FF14 zones:
The Fringes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWQfvnLyvxU
The Lochs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVEWrwV01A8
Amh Araeng: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7K_BowsTtw
Rak'tika Greatwood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ascfjJXDWjoBtw. flying was not possible in the initial FF14 (A realm reborn) game, and it still isn't possible to fly in the original zones (which is explained with missing ether currents in the lore I think). Flying became only available in the later expansions. That would be a fair compromise for me with Pantheon too.
Immersion =/= landscapes. FFXIV revolves abount doing content and then making it obsolète and an unnecessary nuisance, from zones, to dungeons and raids. This is not what I hope for a return to the roots of MMO's, but it fits perfectly the aether current systems in the sense of "once explored, the zone is obsolète and you should not bother crossing it slowly".
Finding beautifull landscapes throught climbing, adventuring or from the highest tower of a dungeon, is far more immersive than scouting the whole zone from the air until you find a "perfect spot" that has not much value.
I know this might sound a bit harsh, and I'm sorry if it feels that way, I just played and play from time to time FFXIV but none of the "advanced" system they put in place appeals me.
MauvaisOeil said:Immersion =/= landscapes. FFXIV revolves abount doing content and then making it obsolète and an unnecessary nuisance, from zones, to dungeons and raids. This is not what I hope for a return to the roots of MMO's, but it fits perfectly the aether current systems in the sense of "once explored, the zone is obsolète and you should not bother crossing it slowly".
This unfortunately happens to all games when expansions come out. It is unavoidable without "revamping" an area to attract higher level content (which still comes from an expansion). People creating new characters is the only way to get players back into older content (and that's only if the expansion content does not have lower level and likely more attractive content), which is still irrelevant to having a mount if performing a quest on each character is required that takes a player across all of the content.
There's also nothing that says that they can't introduce an expansion that incorporates flying mounts + wall climbing simultaneously. EQ2 had "gliding" mounts that could jump from heights and glide for a little ways - this would be an awesome mechanic combined with climbing.
Just making a note about it - We already know there will be land mounts and there wont be flying mounts... at least not until a few expansions if at all.
Just making a note about it - We already know there will be land mounts and there wont be flying mounts... at least not until a few expansions if at all.
JW where have ground mounts been confirmed? Feels bad if so. I'll live but I was really hoping for no mounts.
Darch said:MauvaisOeil said:Immersion =/= landscapes. FFXIV revolves abount doing content and then making it obsolète and an unnecessary nuisance, from zones, to dungeons and raids. This is not what I hope for a return to the roots of MMO's, but it fits perfectly the aether current systems in the sense of "once explored, the zone is obsolète and you should not bother crossing it slowly".
This unfortunately happens to all games when expansions come out. It is unavoidable without "revamping" an area to attract higher level content (which still comes from an expansion). People creating new characters is the only way to get players back into older content (and that's only if the expansion content does not have lower level and likely more attractive content), which is still irrelevant to having a mount if performing a quest on each character is required that takes a player across all of the content.
There's also nothing that says that they can't introduce an expansion that incorporates flying mounts + wall climbing simultaneously. EQ2 had "gliding" mounts that could jump from heights and glide for a little ways - this would be an awesome mechanic combined with climbing.
Just making a note about it - We already know there will be land mounts and there wont be flying mounts... at least not until a few expansions if at all.
You have no idea how fast they do cycle the relevantness of their zones and content on this point. It's not even a matter of expansions but around 2/3 months until new instanced content overthrow the previous one.
I am in the no mount group. I think relying on other players for speed buffs or ports should be a standard part of the game experience. I would also say I am 100% against flying mounts and many people have stated how they feel flying mounts ruin the games they have played and I would agree with them. I also would argue that a need for a ground mount could be overcome by introducing quest items that enhance a players speed something like what J-boots provided payers in EQ. It would be resonable to have different quest items obtainable at various levels with different speed modifiers attached to them but I also agree that the speed should never over power the content you need to have a level of fear running around the world of Terminus.
Being able to use a mount from one point, to another, is okay with me. However, being able to travel from one point, to another, you should have to 'discover' those additional waypoints on foot before you can move between them. Meaning, you can go to a stable master who will charge you a fee to use one of their horses to ride from point A, to point B, but you need to have discovered / visited the destination before you can travel to it using a mount from your current destination. Fixed route, purely for long distance travel.
Free roaming mounts just ruin these games, they really do. It's odd that they have such an adverse impact given how desirable they tend to be. They destory the sense of scale, reliability on others (community / teamwork), and I just really don't like how odd they are, it's like you have a Pokemon pokeball in your pocket and you shout...
HORSEY... I CHOOSE YOU! Then Pop.... there's a seven foot tall shire horse for the Gnome to navigate the world on.
Dark Age of Camelot had the stable master system, they were spread out far enough that you still needed to adventure on foot to get to most places, but if you wanted / needed to travel long distances, you would go to one of the stables and rent a mount to travel to a specific location, on a fixed route. Having to know which stable masters allowed travel to other areas was also something to master as they weren't all connected to each other. It's a good long-term money sponge for the economy, too.
Maybe a system like that could have faster or slower mounts to travel betwen destinations, each with higher / lower costs associated with them (another money sponge to coounter inflation in the economy).
Mounts are fine , but at same time feel they trivialize the abilities og druids /wizards and maybe even summoners . ( flying mounts just bypass continents ) .
My reasoning I play a char in undesclosed game and flying does make the world feel smaller and far easier to handle . ( not mention bypasssing al lthe lore/quests/game ) .
Personally, I think mounts add flavor to a game. I honestly don't care about immersion. Immersion is for RP and story telling. I get it, Pantheon is going to have a ton of lore and a ton of a story to tell, and I can't wait to experience every bit of it; but I honestly don't care about immersion, at least when it comes to others. If some level 1 wants to race by all the content in the zone I'm in, sure, go ahead buddy, you do that. level 3 wants to fly around a zone to get to another area, fine, you do you. To me, the only immersion that matters to me, is mine and mine alone, and even then, I really don't care. I also understand the trivialization of content is annoying and bothers some, but if there are players that want to rush ahead and get to the end to be "first" in a sense, so what, and if they do that on a mount, even better for them. I'm not playing this game for them, I'm playing this game for me. A lot of posts in here go on about how someone else doing something they don't like takes away from their experience of the game, how some level one racing by would anger them and all because they are just racing by content. Why does it bother you? What does it matter? Just play the game. If buddy has a mount handed down from one of his other characters, great, let him have it, in the end, the person racing around and trying to get to "first" is the one that looses out on everything the game has to offer. If VR puts mounts in, no one has to use them, no one has to get one, it's not mandatory to have one. If they want to put in flying mounts and ground mounts, let them do so, you don't have to buy it and you don't have to have one. I also don't understand why getting a mount has to be this uber hard and grindy thing to get. Sure, I don't want one handed to me, I do want to work for one, but why force players to grind out 4 months worth of work for one just because YOU don't want them to have it because it somehow breaks YOUR immersion if they have one. I just don't get it.
I am all for immersion, I truly am despite the slight rant. I love going into an area and just taking a moment to listen to the ambiance, the music, look at the details and watch the creatures that reside within it. I love exploring every little piece of a map and opening that up and revealing what's there. I also know that not everyone wants to do this and that there are going to be people that don't play the game like I do. That's fine. If they have a mount that I don't have, cool, I will admire it and aspire to get there. I might even dislike the look of the mount and decide not to get one at all. If that person on the mount wants to run by all of the content that I am enjoying, then let them. It doesn't affect me in any way and they are the ones that miss a bunch of great stuff to look at an explore. They will be the ones that miss out on groups and other such things, like interacting with other people, but that's on them, and I'm not going to waste what little precious time I have in game to worry about what they are doing. I don't care honestly. My time is for me, and not to be wasted on worrying about what some low level is doing with their mount that they bought or got gifted, that wants to run through a zone. It won't break my immersion in the game, nor will I even take a second look at him. If everyone talking about immersion is truly immersed in what they are talking about, then how will you even notice others just rushing by? I say put mounts in, any mount really. I don't want one handed to me, as I'm sure no one else does; but at the same time, I don't want to waste 4 months worth of a sub to grind for a mount that I can only get at end game, what good does it do me then? Have the players work for it, but don't make it so that it's unobtainable to the majority of your player base.
OCastitatisLilium said:Personally, I think mounts add flavor to a game. I honestly don't care about immersion. Immersion is for RP and story telling. I get it, Pantheon is going to have a ton of lore and a ton of a story to tell, and I can't wait to experience every bit of it; but I honestly don't care about immersion, at least when it comes to others. If some level 1 wants to race by all the content in the zone I'm in, sure, go ahead buddy, you do that. level 3 wants to fly around a zone to get to another area, fine, you do you. To me, the only immersion that matters to me, is mine and mine alone, and even then, I really don't care. I also understand the trivialization of content is annoying and bothers some, but if there are players that want to rush ahead and get to the end to be "first" in a sense, so what, and if they do that on a mount, even better for them. I'm not playing this game for them, I'm playing this game for me. A lot of posts in here go on about how someone else doing something they don't like takes away from their experience of the game, how some level one racing by would anger them and all because they are just racing by content. Why does it bother you? What does it matter? Just play the game. If buddy has a mount handed down from one of his other characters, great, let him have it, in the end, the person racing around and trying to get to "first" is the one that looses out on everything the game has to offer. If VR puts mounts in, no one has to use them, no one has to get one, it's not mandatory to have one. If they want to put in flying mounts and ground mounts, let them do so, you don't have to buy it and you don't have to have one. I also don't understand why getting a mount has to be this uber hard and grindy thing to get. Sure, I don't want one handed to me, I do want to work for one, but why force players to grind out 4 months worth of work for one just because YOU don't want them to have it because it somehow breaks YOUR immersion if they have one. I just don't get it.
I am all for immersion, I truly am despite the slight rant. I love going into an area and just taking a moment to listen to the ambiance, the music, look at the details and watch the creatures that reside within it. I love exploring every little piece of a map and opening that up and revealing what's there. I also know that not everyone wants to do this and that there are going to be people that don't play the game like I do. That's fine. If they have a mount that I don't have, cool, I will admire it and aspire to get there. I might even dislike the look of the mount and decide not to get one at all. If that person on the mount wants to run by all of the content that I am enjoying, then let them. It doesn't affect me in any way and they are the ones that miss a bunch of great stuff to look at an explore. They will be the ones that miss out on groups and other such things, like interacting with other people, but that's on them, and I'm not going to waste what little precious time I have in game to worry about what they are doing. I don't care honestly. My time is for me, and not to be wasted on worrying about what some low level is doing with their mount that they bought or got gifted, that wants to run through a zone. It won't break my immersion in the game, nor will I even take a second look at him. If everyone talking about immersion is truly immersed in what they are talking about, then how will you even notice others just rushing by? I say put mounts in, any mount really. I don't want one handed to me, as I'm sure no one else does; but at the same time, I don't want to waste 4 months worth of a sub to grind for a mount that I can only get at end game, what good does it do me then? Have the players work for it, but don't make it so that it's unobtainable to the majority of your player base.
What you see is part of the experience of the world. By this logic anything could be put in the game and it would be fine because it's your choice to do it or not. The world and its inhabitants is what creates that immersion, and simply choosing to ignore things you don't like doesn't make it go away. This is a fantasy world yes, but it is also a fantasy world that tries to make sense in its own context. I don't think a WoW style mount system would fit at all. You may not, but many people will feel a pressure to use mounts even if they don't want to. People playing with their friends, and guild mates are not going to want to feel like they're being left behind because they're choosing not to use mounts. When a dungeon group is waiting for you to get to the dungeon, they're going to want you to use your mount. Its a human drive to want to be on the same playing field as everyone else. It also detracts from some of the social dependency that makes this type of game great. Classic with SoW will be overshadowed by mounts. Invisibility will likely not even be needed. Towns will no longer be filled with players but cluttered with mounts. In a game as playful as wow it works, but the feeling a game like Pantheon gives is a more serious tone IMO. The world is more dangerous. Traveling is supposed to be hard, especially if your level is lower than your surroundings. It gives a great feeling when you were once too weak to travel a zone, but then become powerful enough to make the journey. Mechanically it is difficult to preserve the lethality and danger of the world when you can summon your mount and outrun any NPC at any time, or even worse use your flying mount to bypass everything. I really want to see the world filled with people and not mounts. It's all opnion, but I truly believe no mounts is the most suitable for this type of game.
Pro said:What you see is part of the experience of the world. By this logic anything could be put in the game and it would be fine because it's your choice to do it or not. The world and its inhabitants is what creates that immersion, and simply choosing to ignore things you don't like doesn't make it go away. This is a fantasy world yes, but it is also a fantasy world that tries to make sense in its own context. I don't think a WoW style mount system would fit at all. You may not, but many people will feel a pressure to use mounts even if they don't want to. People playing with their friends, and guild mates are not going to want to feel like they're being left behind because they're choosing not to use mounts. When a dungeon group is waiting for you to get to the dungeon, they're going to want you to use your mount. Its a human drive to want to be on the same playing field as everyone else. It also detracts from some of the social dependency that makes this type of game great. Classic with SoW will be overshadowed by mounts. Invisibility will likely not even be needed. Towns will no longer be filled with players but cluttered with mounts. In a game as playful as wow it works, but the feeling a game like Pantheon gives is a more serious tone IMO. The world is more dangerous. Traveling is supposed to be hard, especially if your level is lower than your surroundings. It gives a great feeling when you were once too weak to travel a zone, but then become powerful enough to make the journey. Mechanically it is difficult to preserve the lethality and danger of the world when you can summon your mount and outrun any NPC at any time, or even worse use your flying mount to bypass everything. I really want to see the world filled with people and not mounts. It's all opnion, but I truly believe no mounts is the most suitable for this type of game.
I never said to have a WoW type system, in fact I hope that VR puts mounts in and improves on what WoW did. I don't care if what you consider a " problem" goes away or not, it doesn't take away form my playing of the game and what I do with my time there. As for the pressure bit, then it really speaks more of a person asking for this game to be as slow as possible, feeling pressured to use a mount when they have asked for this game to be as slow as it is. At that point you would have to ask WHY they are feeling the pressure to use it and WHY are people wanting to use it just because someone else does? Let's take this farther then, what about SoW and buffs that increase your speed, why have those then if you want the game slow. There are going to be times people aren't going to want to wait for a Sow to be cast on them randomly or even be able to get it at all. That's all you ever hear in P99 is people asking for Sow and spamming the ask in the chat bar, not to mention the prices people are asking for them; why? because the game is sluggish and no one can get anywhere at all without it. If adding a mount, a ground mount for instance, breaks immersion for the game, and forces people to feel pressured to get one, then what about Sow. I read this topic and a few of these answers to my husband who played when EQ first came out, he said that even back then people begged for Sow because of how slow it all was, granted no one really asked to be paid for it back then, but a tip was almost expected, just not verbally.
I get it, no one wants to feel left out or falling behind, but no matter what game you play or what MMO comes out, there is always going to be that feeling. There is a lot more that goes into the pressure a person feels when it comes to the mount, but at that point you have to look at the person themselves that are feeling the pressure and ask why? It kind of harkens back to the whole health class thing where peer pressure and drugs were heavily taught...which in turn honestly didn't happen as often as they made it sound. But even with that, you have to ask the person WHY they are feeling the pressure, because there is always a reason behind it and not just "because my friends want me to" Again, at the end of it, this is all opinion and everyone is entitled to it, no harm no foul. Though it does lead me to asking other questions that rise out of sheer curiosity, If a mount trivializes content and even some classes, then why have Sow, because it does the same thing, just not with a mount, at least in my opinion. Why have any speed buff or spell that can get you anywhere faster, if porting or Sowing is just going to have you running by content or even just trying to get from point A to point B faster?
OCastitatisLilium said:Pro said:What you see is part of the experience of the world. By this logic anything could be put in the game and it would be fine because it's your choice to do it or not. The world and its inhabitants is what creates that immersion, and simply choosing to ignore things you don't like doesn't make it go away. This is a fantasy world yes, but it is also a fantasy world that tries to make sense in its own context. I don't think a WoW style mount system would fit at all. You may not, but many people will feel a pressure to use mounts even if they don't want to. People playing with their friends, and guild mates are not going to want to feel like they're being left behind because they're choosing not to use mounts. When a dungeon group is waiting for you to get to the dungeon, they're going to want you to use your mount. Its a human drive to want to be on the same playing field as everyone else. It also detracts from some of the social dependency that makes this type of game great. Classic with SoW will be overshadowed by mounts. Invisibility will likely not even be needed. Towns will no longer be filled with players but cluttered with mounts. In a game as playful as wow it works, but the feeling a game like Pantheon gives is a more serious tone IMO. The world is more dangerous. Traveling is supposed to be hard, especially if your level is lower than your surroundings. It gives a great feeling when you were once too weak to travel a zone, but then become powerful enough to make the journey. Mechanically it is difficult to preserve the lethality and danger of the world when you can summon your mount and outrun any NPC at any time, or even worse use your flying mount to bypass everything. I really want to see the world filled with people and not mounts. It's all opnion, but I truly believe no mounts is the most suitable for this type of game.
I never said to have a WoW type system, in fact I hope that VR puts mounts in and improves on what WoW did. I don't care if what you consider a " problem" goes away or not, it doesn't take away form my playing of the game and what I do with my time there. As for the pressure bit, then it really speaks more of a person asking for this game to be as slow as possible, feeling pressured to use a mount when they have asked for this game to be as slow as it is. At that point you would have to ask WHY they are feeling the pressure to use it and WHY are people wanting to use it just because someone else does? Let's take this farther then, what about SoW and buffs that increase your speed, why have those then if you want the game slow. There are going to be times people aren't going to want to wait for a Sow to be cast on them randomly or even be able to get it at all. That's all you ever hear in P99 is people asking for Sow and spamming the ask in the chat bar, not to mention the prices people are asking for them; why? because the game is sluggish and no one can get anywhere at all without it. If adding a mount, a ground mount for instance, breaks immersion for the game, and forces people to feel pressured to get one, then what about Sow. I read this topic and a few of these answers to my husband who played when EQ first came out, he said that even back then people begged for Sow because of how slow it all was, granted no one really asked to be paid for it back then, but a tip was almost expected, just not verbally.
I get it, no one wants to feel left out or falling behind, but no matter what game you play or what MMO comes out, there is always going to be that feeling. There is a lot more that goes into the pressure a person feels when it comes to the mount, but at that point you have to look at the person themselves that are feeling the pressure and ask why? It kind of harkens back to the whole health class thing where peer pressure and drugs were heavily taught...which in turn honestly didn't happen as often as they made it sound. But even with that, you have to ask the person WHY they are feeling the pressure, because there is always a reason behind it and not just "because my friends want me to" Again, at the end of it, this is all opinion and everyone is entitled to it, no harm no foul. Though it does lead me to asking other questions that rise out of sheer curiosity, If a mount trivializes content and even some classes, then why have Sow, because it does the same thing, just not with a mount, at least in my opinion. Why have any speed buff or spell that can get you anywhere faster, if porting or Sowing is just going to have you running by content or even just trying to get from point A to point B faster?
Come on, you know well that porting and effects like SoW can be, and are in any game I can think of, much more controlled and less impactful than flying mounts.
As for peer pressure or feeling left out, to me, one of your comments actually exemplifies this being impactful: "That's all you ever hear in P99 is people asking for Sow and spamming the ask in the chat bar, not to mention the prices people are asking for them; why? because the game is sluggish and no one can get anywhere at all without it"
No, it's not because you can't get anywhere without it, it's because people are, on average, for whatever reason, wanting to do things quicker/easier. Maybe they have less time to play. Maybe they are lazy. Whatever the reason, it means that something like flying mounts will get used by nearly everyone and, if you don't use them, you will literally get left behind. The teleporting taxi services in P99 have utterly trivialised and made mundane the concept and impact of travelling to another continent. It's sad you can just type "/who Taxi" and "/tell TaxiDude WC to Kel, please" and be on another continent less than a minute later. Immersion gone. Impact of a large world gone. Social aspect of getting together a group with a character capable of teleports, gone. Group teleports are another conversation - you can still have a tough time getting to exactly where you are going or even getting to a teleport ring/spire, but flying mounts have a similarly ruinous effect on what should be meaningful (dangerous and time consuming) progress through the game world.
I'd guess that most players think they don't care that much about 'immersion'. They play a game and they don't know why it 'feels' so 'atmospheric'. But, that doesn't mean immersion is unimportant, it just means the average player doesn't think that deeply about it.
I'd guess most players think they don't care that much about content skipping and other 'easy' mechanics. They play a game and they get frustrated by things that take a while to do, but then they are elated when they've suceeded. They don't know why they game has such emotional impact. But, that doesn't mean the factors leading to that impact are unimportant, it just means the average players doesn't think that deeply about it.
Now, I'm not saying that flying mounts are definitely something that *seriously* hurt immersion and degrade content impact, *but* they definitely do *to some degree*.
It's up to the devs to weight up ease of travel against the immersion effects of tons of characters flitting around in the air and the challenge-reducing effect of easy content skipping.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say flying mounts are one of those things that has an overall negative effect and is one of the things that has lead to 'modern' MMOs being degraded by 'convenience', but I'm not suggesting that's a 'fact' - it's my subjective opinion - but I feel comfortable suggesting it will be shared by a lot of people wanting an 'old school' MMORPG where challenge is a primary concern.
Imagine a dragon encounter that takes 20 people to do. There is a whole zone of underlings and other difficulties 'guarding' that boss that those 4 groups must battle through before fighting the boss. It's an epic effort to even get to the boss. A trial of combat to be worthy. The boss is difficult enough, but the added jeopardy is, if you fail, you will have to fight your way back there again. It may well take 2 hours to get to, and fight, the boss, so you're probably talking one whole play session per attempt. The effort makes the whole thing more rewarding.
Now imagine your raid force can just fly over the zone and plop down in front of the boss. They can attempt the boss fight 25 times that session. Some of them may never even see the preceding zone.
Does that sound *more* immersive, epic and challenging? Or less?
P.S. The idea of adding flying enemies to counter the content skipping effect is, I think, much more complex and impactful than it might seem. I think it would turn any game adopting it into a completely different feeling experience. People are not used to concidering three dimensions to that degree. It would feel chaotic (it would *be* chaotic) and frantic to be continually looking up and around for enemies. VR are going to have to be very careful designing underwater areas for this reason, but that's another discussion.
P.P.S. As I write this I realise that what would happen in a 'realistic' world, would be every boss with any power and control would simply block air access. They would all live in dungeons or castles forcing you to walk through all their minions. There would be ballista and cannons mounted everywhere. Welcome to a world where anything 'difficult' has to be underground and characters can die pretty much randomly from unseen ground-to-air missiles. *shrug* could work, but again, is it better, or should we just not have flying mounts?
P.P.P.S. Please don't take this as an attack! ;^) I feel pretty strongly that immersion and challenge are aspects of MMORPGs that have sadly declined in the genre, so I can ramble on a bit (a lot!). There are plenty of games that are 'just games' out there. I'm really wanting Pantheon to be something more - or at least something different - and, if that puts off those not willing to 'endure' some of the more taxing aspects, well *shrug* as I say, there are plenty of appropriate games out there. One of the fundamental attractions of Pantheon to me is VR's stated willingness to target a niche audience wanting an 'old school' MMORPG. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would consider content-skipping and world-shrinking 'conveniences' like flying mounts to not be 'old school'.
I think content-skipping is a poor argument against (flying) mounts. Players will (try to) skip obstacles in any way they can, be it stealth/invis, pacify, CotH, aggro/run + fd, SoW/bard speed...do you want to remove all these things from the game to prevent content skipping too? Even high level is a tool for content skipping.
I do agree with the argument that mounts make the world feel smaller tho. However, this is an effect that happens with or without mounts. Once you know the world/zones and the best routes to get around, the world will automatically become "smaller". Once you're high level, you will not want to slowly walk around anymore, you will look for any chance to shorten the way with a druids/wizards port and SoW speed. And that is part of the immersion for me: You character learns, and earns the right to have these options available.
It is the developers responsibility to take care that these things do not get out of hand (like in EQ with adding porting hubs).
Mounts in most games are really just slightly restrictive movement speed buffs with a visual effect. As such they do not really add anything to game play (especially if the mounted buff is both the highest movement speed modifier and unstackable with other buffs) other than the vanity collector aspect.
Movement buffs of all types that trivialize dangerous content should be avoided unless there are in turn counters to those buffs within the game world.
Mounts/vehicles could be beneficial though if they were more about carrying capacity than speed. This would be doubly true if protecting said cargo was a style of game play itself. For that style of game play to mater though you would need to not be able to mail objects around the world. Also all teleportation abilities would also need to have some encumbrance limit so that you can not load up huge amounts then just teleport most of the distance. This really plays into a crafter/trader game play style.
I personally wish that all ground had movement speed modifiers. Really well made roads had the highest positive modifier and swamps had the highest negative modifier. Certain buffs would mimic the land being a certain movement modifier such as “Pass without a trace” treating underbrush (a moderate movement penalty) as open grass land (the neutral movement state).
In this way movement between cities on main roads would be the fastest travel method and could not be over matched by huge spell bonuses but those spells could improve moving through open country to nearly the same speed.
Sarim said:I think content-skipping is a poor argument against (flying) mounts. Players will (try to) skip obstacles in any way they can, be it stealth/invis, pacify, CotH, aggro/run + fd, SoW/bard speed...do you want to remove all these things from the game to prevent content skipping too? Even high level is a tool for content skipping.
I do agree with the argument that mounts make the world feel smaller tho. However, this is an effect that happens with or without mounts. Once you know the world/zones and the best routes to get around, the world will automatically become "smaller". Once you're high level, you will not want to slowly walk around anymore, you will look for any chance to shorten the way with a druids/wizards port and SoW speed. And that is part of the immersion for me: You character learns, and earns the right to have these options available.
It is the developers responsibility to take care that these things do not get out of hand (like in EQ with adding porting hubs).
You seem to be comparing apples to oranges. It's the difference of flying a jet across the country or riding your bike. Two completely different things.
Flying completely removes the flyer from all content (unless the design of this game is being changed) one can simply get from point A to B very quickly without any thought or danger. Your other examples still force the player to be immersed in the environment and danger of the world.
-stealth/invis: some mobs can still see through these. Invis has a tendancy to drop. stealth significantly slows your movement speed, you can still be stunned/rooted with a run speed buff, fd doesn't always work and if it does you are usually waiting there a while for the mob to walk away, pacify can only work so much and be time consuming.
These all require active engagement and vigilance while trying to "skip obstacles". Flying simply does not.
Lastly, I completely agree with not adding port hubs.
Impermanent ground mounts. Perhaps you could purchase from a tamer, a money sink, or have players become animal tamers and can sell mounts out of their homestead and make an economy out of it. Mounts could last an x amount of time in your posession: a few days, they could increasingly become subject to wear and tear, injury, etc. Mounts would only be necessary in few imaginative exceptions that you wouldn't otherwise be able to reach without one. In general they would be in used commonly by people with a lot of coin to spare, at max level, perhaps you could keep one for a longer time, or some other extra perk with regards to mounts. You could introduce leveling to mounts at max level, or some other progeny based effect. I think "mounts = yes" is just so lazy nowadays, you can really create more immersion with making things matter.
From a strictly lore perspective, you need to have mounts. It makes no sense that we can summon elementals, manipulate matter, turn undead, and all kinds of other super powerful things, but we can't tame a horse. Flying mounts only make sense if there's flying creatures large enough (which their typically are in fantasy MMO games).
Stepping outside of lore, we all have to be aware that mounts are a contentious issue and have polarized many. My suggestion would be to have mounts be persistant (you can't summon them or store them in your backpack). Persistant mounts can be killed and can't go everywhere, so they would mostly be used for travel between towns and then left in town when you go adventuring. Same with flying mounts, though they should also not be able to hover and should require a minimum distance to land (so you can't use them to bypass most climbing-only accessable places. The ground mounts should have their own inventory to provide for extra storage but have the same corpse rules as players if they die. Players would have a very limited carrying capacity and would use mounts to store items and as a kind of supply train for long expiditions. Ground mounts would also generally be slow, though some that are low capacity and low health could be quicker. Flying mounts should not have much if any extra storage, but be fast.
Counterfleche said:From a strictly lore perspective, you need to have mounts. It makes no sense that we can summon elementals, manipulate matter, turn undead, and all kinds of other super powerful things, but we can't tame a horse. Flying mounts only make sense if there's flying creatures large enough (which their typically are in fantasy MMO games).
Stepping outside of lore, we all have to be aware that mounts are a contentious issue and have polarized many. My suggestion would be to have mounts be persistant (you can't summon them or store them in your backpack). Persistant mounts can be killed and can't go everywhere, so they would mostly be used for travel between towns and then left in town when you go adventuring. Same with flying mounts, though they should also not be able to hover and should require a minimum distance to land (so you can't use them to bypass most climbing-only accessable places. The ground mounts should have their own inventory to provide for extra storage but have the same corpse rules as players if they die. Players would have a very limited carrying capacity and would use mounts to store items and as a kind of supply train for long expiditions. Ground mounts would also generally be slow, though some that are low capacity and low health could be quicker. Flying mounts should not have much if any extra storage, but be fast.
I agree that mounts would/should be useless for adventurers. You can't train a horse to survive fireball splash damage while you dismount for an ambush and it can't traverse a dungeon and will not survive being left outside one in the wilderness for 30 seconds.
Horses are practical as mounts in real life because they are cared for and not in mortal danger every minute.
P.S. The same goes for vanity pets as far as I'm concerned. Nothing more ridiculous than those indestructable furry animals surviving fireballs better than their owners.
Your suggestion for using mounts between 'stables' is good. I've never had a problem with flying or riding as an equivalent to teleporting between portals. LOTRO did this well: You would visit a town stable and could hire a horse to ride to a couple of major, known hubs. As you visited out-of-the-way stables, it opened up more and more riding routes for hire.
It would be interesting to add the ability to go off-route and, when you abandon your horse, it runs straight back to the route (with the risk of being killed) and then on to the destination you originally picked. *shrug*
The added customization and play is fun with mounts...but that shouldnt mean that mounts delineate sections of the game population. Spirit of the wolf was plenty fast enough before mounts become so fast that the landscape blurs past...eventually the speed argument ends with a /travel command. I like a game that ends the question with the first letter in MMORPG. I don't want the game to feel that much smaller. A giant fire breathing horse that eliminates the need for SoW potions...that's my kind of end game buff...but only if a newbie can keep up in some way...and even then, only as a trivial bonus and not as a means to bypass the massive world
I imagine it could be fun to have certain types of mounts locked to a class/race type and maybe some gear...Fiery Lance of Doom equippable only if you're on said fire breathing battle horse
I feel like a Ranged attack specialty weapon could work for flying mounts although to avoid confusion any type of bomb dropping should be avoided from flying mounts entirely
disposalist said:...I agree that mounts would/should be useless for adventurers. You can't train a horse to survive fireball splash damage while you dismount for an ambush and it can't traverse a dungeon and will not survive being left outside one in the wilderness for 30 seconds....
Your suggestion for using mounts between 'stables' is good. I've never had a problem with flying or riding as an equivalent to teleporting between portals. LOTRO did this well: You would visit a town stable and could hire a horse to ride to a couple of major, known hubs. As you visited out-of-the-way stables, it opened up more and more riding routes for hire....
In the scenario where you can purchase a ride between stable (stations). It could provide some money sink. If the mount had some hp and variety in how much it could carry or what kind or armoured mount you could ride on, you can bring some variety to the expenses.
So at the stable you have certain mount choices (mountspeed is (close to?) equal overall): a low hp mount but cheap, a normal hp mount more expensive, a large hp mount (not graphically just in its hp stat), a mount with no extra inventory but cheap, with X saddlebags more expensive, with >X saddlebags even more expensive, no armour mount but cheap, slight armour more expensive, highly armoured expensive (and slower?).
You can have a variety of all the above and also regions could define what mount options are available. Some regions might be more suited to armoured mounts running around while others would not.
In case the mount could die, it still offers a risk to the riding player. If they reach their desired stable, they might get some cash return but not the whole cost.
Ground mounts only preferred, but give it a few expansions before we add them.
Flying would be ok if it were just between 2 points after you have discovered those two points (Think griffon towers in EQ2).
Do not allow free flying anywhere in the zonebox. Please.