Bazgrim said:Aradune said:barod1989 said:thank you
are we going to get another pre alpha ? and when ?
Our official message here is this: No, pre-alpha is not over. We do have an idea as to how many more sessions, but keeping that internal at the moment. Project Faerthale is something we need to do to take the game to the next level and after all of the hard work on the game's foundation and all of the great feedback and bugs reported thus far in pre-alpha this is the perfect time to tackle such a endeavor. Lastly and again, we are not done with pre-alpha, but PF is our focal point right now. Thanks for all of the patience and faith in us.
Just so we're absolutely clear with terminology here, is it safe to say that Project Faerthale and PA5 are synonymous? The terms seem to be used interchangeably. I'm sure the longterm implications of Project Faerthale extend beyond just PA5. But is PA5 going to be the first introduction to the work that's being done in Faerthale?
NO, we are not saying PA5 = PF. Not at all. PA5 is one of several big efforts that PF makes possible. Can't say more than one should consider PF a major internal milestone that should open up lots of opportunities to reach and grow the community.
I'm excited about the artifacts! (Already fantasizing about a warrior with shield of mirrors and a crest of illumination... and J-boots, we will need Journeyman boots!) I personally found that the most interesting part of the Newletter. Oh, and good spotlight Dorotea.
I'm ok with a more developed game before Alpha - I didn't pledge pre-alpha because I couldn't dedicate the time to put in the work that I know is required of the testers in a game that is still in its infancy. With two children of my own, I'm fine waiting for the toddler stages of PRotF before jumping in to help bug fix... and then I look forward to seeing its full maturity.
It's so nice to see the Creative director acknowledge and make eye-contact on these forums, metaphorically speaking, during this cool winter-time.
"I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day."
I haven;t read the newsletter yet! I am saving it for this evening when I get home!
Best part was the Brad McQuaid Q&A. Newsletter seems scarce of info except "Everybody hold tight, we got this!". That was excpected though they said that last month. Love the idea of finding artifacts that help/mitigate certain climates, sorta like Zelda. I know its hard to be patient when you've already pledged your money and want to play the game but:
"A delayed game is eventually good. A rushed game is bad forever."
-Shigeru Miyamoto
Who are also pirates :) ))
Eek - not PIRATES!!!!
Maybe a starter island like the one in Age of Conan - killed pirates by the hundred there. They did a great job on the island - the rest of the game ...less so.
((Best part was the Brad McQuaid Q&A.))
Definitely. What he said on the stae of the game came a lot better from him personally than it would have from others.
The guts of what he said on game progress is that things will be slower than many of you hope, but the results will be a lot better than many of you expect - trust us. Also we do not have all the money we need yet but the extra time working on things before alpha is released and word gets around positively or negatively will really help there too.
Oddly enough after a long career when I saw that "trust me" so often meant "I am lying" I do trust what he said.
Aradune said:I hear you and understand where you are coming from. Thanks for taking the time to post that and to share your feelings -- I'm sure you're not alone.
I want to do my best to manage expectations early on here while we are engaging PF -- it's ambitous and will include a ton of newness. The closer we get to it being ready, the more we will be able to reveal. We've planned this milestone out in great detail and have eagerly begun to work through it. But we'll be at this point where we need to keep things vague for a bit.
But here's where I can be open and hopefully help with the expectations, although you may not like the answer:
PF has all sorts of moving parts, involves the entire company, all of the departments. A lot of the work is done by different people and early on it doesn't make sense to try to keep everything hooked up. In other words, Pantheon is getting some significant surgery. What that reallly truly means is at the beginning you're not going to see a lot. We're making great progress but you'll have to trust us on it. Again, the closer we get to finishing it the more parts and pieces will come together and the more we can share. But not this first big effort -- it's going to very much stay internally.
I know that's a bummer. I know I'm asking you guys to be patient and to have faith. I hope as you look back at where we have come from and where we've brough the game thus far that we have earned that trust and faith.
thanks for listening
-Brad
Alright man. You've got it. Honesty goes a long way with me, your interview and replies in this thread alleviate some concerns. I hope you guys hit a homerun with PF.
Darch said:I'm excited about the artifacts! (Already fantasizing about a warrior with shield of mirrors and a crest of illumination... and J-boots, we will need Journeyman boots!) I personally found that the most interesting part of the Newletter. Oh, and good spotlight Dorotea.
I'm ok with a more developed game before Alpha - I didn't pledge pre-alpha because I couldn't dedicate the time to put in the work that I know is required of the testers in a game that is still in its infancy. With two children of my own, I'm fine waiting for the toddler stages of PRotF before jumping in to help bug fix... and then I look forward to seeing its full maturity.
We have decided to make alpha more like what is traditionally early beta. There are accepted definitions for alpha and beta that are used generally in software development. Then there are definitions the game industry and community have been using for some time. We made the decision to veer back towards the more standard (not gaming/mmo world) definitions. Using the more 'gaming/MMO' definitions pre-alpha is sort of more like alpha, and our alpha and beta like one really long beta (which we've consistently said we've wanted since the game's inception). That said, we don't want to lock ourselves into any definitions or pre-conceived notions of where we say we are at and where you guys think we're at -- it's just not realistic to go into too much detail. That's why we don't get into too much detail most of the time and definitely why we stay away from dates (except for a few slip ups). It's imperative regardless that we try to manage expectations as best as we can.
I can say this: many in PA have exclaimed that the game in their opinion felt like it was in alpha already. Take that I guess any way you want to -- everyone has pre-conceived notions and I think some will find the game where they expect it to be, others not so much, and others of the opinion that it's farther along than they had assumed. This is all what happens when you let hundreds and later thousdands of people into your unfinished games --people's pre-conceptions are suddenly met with reality. Then again, this is a largely crowdfunded game along with private investors -- we need to show and talk about the game earlier than in the old days -- it just is what it is :)
All that said, the vast majority of people thus far, pre-alpha testers, streamers, and others, have been pleasantly surprised, so I think ultimately all is good :) Our degree of transparency has more upsides than downsides. Lastly, if you're not in PA, I'd probably look at our various streams, the time difference between them, and then judge for yourselves both where the game is at at the time of the stream and then how much appears to have been accomplished since the last stream.
Aradune said:Darch said:I'm excited about the artifacts! (Already fantasizing about a warrior with shield of mirrors and a crest of illumination... and J-boots, we will need Journeyman boots!) I personally found that the most interesting part of the Newletter. Oh, and good spotlight Dorotea.
I'm ok with a more developed game before Alpha - I didn't pledge pre-alpha because I couldn't dedicate the time to put in the work that I know is required of the testers in a game that is still in its infancy. With two children of my own, I'm fine waiting for the toddler stages of PRotF before jumping in to help bug fix... and then I look forward to seeing its full maturity.
We have decided to make alpha more like what is traditionally early beta. There are accepted definitions for alpha and beta that are used generally in software development. Then there are definitions the game industry and community have been using for some time. We made the decision to veer back towards the more standard (not gaming/mmo world) definitions. Using the more 'gaming/MMO' definitions pre-alpha is sort of more like alpha, and our alpha and beta like one really long beta (which we've consistently said we've wanted since the game's inception).
This speaks volumes. I think many in the community would be much more apt to overlook the perceived timeframe paradox (emphasis on perceived) if they were aware that this was the goal and expectation.
Nikademis said:Aradune said:Darch said:I'm excited about the artifacts! (Already fantasizing about a warrior with shield of mirrors and a crest of illumination... and J-boots, we will need Journeyman boots!) I personally found that the most interesting part of the Newletter. Oh, and good spotlight Dorotea.
I'm ok with a more developed game before Alpha - I didn't pledge pre-alpha because I couldn't dedicate the time to put in the work that I know is required of the testers in a game that is still in its infancy. With two children of my own, I'm fine waiting for the toddler stages of PRotF before jumping in to help bug fix... and then I look forward to seeing its full maturity.
We have decided to make alpha more like what is traditionally early beta. There are accepted definitions for alpha and beta that are used generally in software development. Then there are definitions the game industry and community have been using for some time. We made the decision to veer back towards the more standard (not gaming/mmo world) definitions. Using the more 'gaming/MMO' definitions pre-alpha is sort of more like alpha, and our alpha and beta like one really long beta (which we've consistently said we've wanted since the game's inception).
This speaks volumes. I think many in the community would be much more apt to overlook the perceived timeframe paradox (emphasis on perceived) if they were aware that this was the goal and expectation.
I hear ya. It's just that I don't want to dive deep into what our defintions are, yours, his, theirs, and those other companies, etc. I think we were pretty clear about at what point the game was when we began pre-alpha in order to manage expectations. As we get closer to Alpha I think it's reasonable for us to again set expectations. Same with beta.
But today I think it's too early to try to set your expecations of what Alpha is going to be like.
Aradune said:Nikademis said:Aradune said:Darch said:I'm excited about the artifacts! (Already fantasizing about a warrior with shield of mirrors and a crest of illumination... and J-boots, we will need Journeyman boots!) I personally found that the most interesting part of the Newletter. Oh, and good spotlight Dorotea.
I'm ok with a more developed game before Alpha - I didn't pledge pre-alpha because I couldn't dedicate the time to put in the work that I know is required of the testers in a game that is still in its infancy. With two children of my own, I'm fine waiting for the toddler stages of PRotF before jumping in to help bug fix... and then I look forward to seeing its full maturity.
We have decided to make alpha more like what is traditionally early beta. There are accepted definitions for alpha and beta that are used generally in software development. Then there are definitions the game industry and community have been using for some time. We made the decision to veer back towards the more standard (not gaming/mmo world) definitions. Using the more 'gaming/MMO' definitions pre-alpha is sort of more like alpha, and our alpha and beta like one really long beta (which we've consistently said we've wanted since the game's inception).
This speaks volumes. I think many in the community would be much more apt to overlook the perceived timeframe paradox (emphasis on perceived) if they were aware that this was the goal and expectation.
I hear ya. It's just that I don't want to dive deep into what our defintions are, yours, his, theirs, and those other companies, etc. I think we were pretty clear about at what point the game was when we began pre-alpha in order to manage expectations. As we get closer to Alpha I think it's reasonable for us to again set expectations. Same with beta.
But today I think it's too early to try to set your expecations of what Alpha is going to be like.
Oh yea, absolutely. I just meant that it was a great point of clarification more than anything, or at least something to consider. Thanks Brad \m/
((We have decided to make alpha more like what is traditionally early beta))
This in and of itself makes an enormous difference.
With alpha meaning what almost all of us have assumed, and expecting at least a year of testing after alpha hits, the newsletter supports a reasonable expectation that if all goes *well* including extra funding - release by the middle of 2021 may be the earliest we can hope for. Not long ago only a few "pessimists" on the forums predicted a release date that late. Thus the fairly universal perception that although having you talk to us so extensively was very much appreciated, the substance of what was communicated was ...not good in terms of timing.
With this, one can at least *hope* that alpha will start not too late next year - this year maybe not too likely given the number of PA phases and the need to do things between PA and alpha. If that previously mentioned one year for testing includes some of pre-alpha now, it is not outrageous to predict release 6-12 months after what is functionally early beta. That would mean release in 2020 is not impossible. Not necessarily the way the smart money would bet but not impossible - you have just tossed an in-combat rez on the dead hopes of the "glass is half full" optimists.
dorotea said:((We have decided to make alpha more like what is traditionally early beta))
This in and of itself makes an enormous difference.
With alpha meaning what almost all of us have assumed, and expecting at least a year of testing after alpha hits, the newsletter supports a reasonable expectation that if all goes *well* including extra funding - release by the middle of 2021 may be the earliest we can hope for. Not long ago only a few "pessimists" on the forums predicted a release date that late. Thus the fairly universal perception that although having you talk to us so extensively was very much appreciated, the substance of what was communicated was ...not good in terms of timing.
With this, one can at least *hope* that alpha will start not too late next year - this year maybe not too likely given the number of PA phases and the need to do things between PA and alpha. If that previously mentioned one year for testing includes some of pre-alpha now, it is not outrageous to predict release 6-12 months after what is functionally early beta. That would mean release in 2020 is not impossible. Not necessarily the way the smart money would bet but not impossible - you have just tossed an in-combat rez on the dead hopes of the "glass is half full" optimists.
What we've done is built a situation in which we can take the time needed. We're not rushed. We don't have to meet dates that aren't ones we chose ourselves. It's a scenario I've dreamed about for decades but as I mentioned in the newletter, compromise is the enemy. I know it's a wild ride for you guys as well and it can be frustrating not getting dates and keeping the faith, etc. I get it, but it's the only way we can remain true to ourselves, that we place excellence up on a pedestal. We have to be able to change dates, goals, specifications, design, etc. in-house without dumping that fluidity on you guys.
Mathir said:Brad, are you guys still feeling pretty good about getting all three continents in prior to release? Is there any scenario you can see where the game might have to launch with just one or two of the continents finished?
Possibly. We may only need two. The sizes of these zones are huge. But maybe a continent feels to big and we want to do 4 smaller ones instead. And sure I'm always worried to an extent, hopefully a healthy one. The team is growing, the project is becoming more complex. There's a lot of vigilance needed. We need to be efficient and smart, not just work hard. But, overall, I feel very good about where we're at.
Dorotea: I would like to express my sincere appreciation of your Community Spotlight. Sure, sure the rest of the newsletter made me smile as always - but three things you said made my week:
1) Main class / race and why: all of them (bravo - though I am certain you will enjoy your bard most of all *wink*)
2) Favorite place in the game: character creation (kudos - one must look the part for good or ill *adjusts feathered cap*)
3) Your choice in #6: Sorry kids but pirates are murderous, criminal scum that just happen to ply their evil on water & At least the land doesn't shake too much (priceless!)
Thank you...was a pleasure to read.
PS - Oh and Brad: your Q&A was good too...(*wanders off muttering about paladins and rangers - everyone knows human bards rock*)
Thank you Kumu I try to write cleverly - don't always *succeed* but as the lawyer (barrister) said - I try.
I may well enjoy the bard a lot - I did in Vanguard. Loved the run speed buffs - how can you go wrong playing a fast woman? Very notable.
If a bard can be non-human that opens up other possibilities too - a lot of nostalgia there as I see myself speeding along and after all these years again get to enjoy the bard's tail.
Aradune said:What we've done is built a situation in which we can take the time needed. We're not rushed. We don't have to meet dates that aren't ones we chose ourselves. It's a scenario I've dreamed about for decades but as I mentioned in the newletter, compromise is the enemy. I know it's a wild ride for you guys as well and it can be frustrating not getting dates and keeping the faith, etc. I get it, but it's the only way we can remain true to ourselves, that we place excellence up on a pedestal. We have to be able to change dates, goals, specifications, design, etc. in-house without dumping that fluidity on you guys.
This is the best Pantheon news I have read for a very long time. The possibility of getting a polished uncompromised old-school McQuaid MMO again is well worth another 3+ years of waiting.
Keep up the good work!
Thank you for the newsletter and especially thank you, Brad, for the clarifications in this thread.
I was hoping for an alpha phase that focused on testing rather than displaying final systems. I get it though, one has to follow the times and when VR hits the alpha mark, the broader audience have their expectations on where the game should be. We have already seen a lot of Youtube comments mentioning graphics and animations in early pre-alpha.
Aradune said:I hear you and understand where you are coming from. Thanks for taking the time to post that and to share your feelings -- I'm sure you're not alone.
I want to do my best to manage expectations early on here while we are engaging PF -- it's ambitous and will include a ton of newness. The closer we get to it being ready, the more we will be able to reveal. We've planned this milestone out in great detail and have eagerly begun to work through it. But we'll be at this point where we need to keep things vague for a bit.
But here's where I can be open and hopefully help with the expectations, although you may not like the answer:
PF has all sorts of moving parts, involves the entire company, all of the departments. A lot of the work is done by different people and early on it doesn't make sense to try to keep everything hooked up. In other words, Pantheon is getting some significant surgery. What that reallly truly means is at the beginning you're not going to see a lot. We're making great progress but you'll have to trust us on it. Again, the closer we get to finishing it the more parts and pieces will come together and the more we can share. But not this first big effort -- it's going to very much stay internally.
I know that's a bummer. I know I'm asking you guys to be patient and to have faith. I hope as you look back at where we have come from and where we've brough the game thus far that we have earned that trust and faith.
thanks for listening
-Brad
Perfect answer! I take it back, you do not look like Mark Hamill.
Seriously though, the community you have created here is rock solid. We believe in the same things you believe in. We want the same things. If this game takes 10 years to come out you will meet everyone of us in game on day 1. Although, some of us will be playing from nursing homes by then.
Keep going, don't compromise on vision, you are not alone!
Blood
Aradune said:Mathir said:Brad, are you guys still feeling pretty good about getting all three continents in prior to release? Is there any scenario you can see where the game might have to launch with just one or two of the continents finished?
Possibly. We may only need two. The sizes of these zones are huge. But maybe a continent feels to big and we want to do 4 smaller ones instead. And sure I'm always worried to an extent, hopefully a healthy one. The team is growing, the project is becoming more complex. There's a lot of vigilance needed. We need to be efficient and smart, not just work hard. But, overall, I feel very good about where we're at.
Understood. Speaking on behalf of the Community, we will gladly trade Whitethaw for assurances the Bard and Necro will make it in by launch.
Mathir said:Aradune said:Mathir said:Brad, are you guys still feeling pretty good about getting all three continents in prior to release? Is there any scenario you can see where the game might have to launch with just one or two of the continents finished?
Possibly. We may only need two. The sizes of these zones are huge. But maybe a continent feels to big and we want to do 4 smaller ones instead. And sure I'm always worried to an extent, hopefully a healthy one. The team is growing, the project is becoming more complex. There's a lot of vigilance needed. We need to be efficient and smart, not just work hard. But, overall, I feel very good about where we're at.
Ha! LoL
Understood. Speaking on behalf of the Community, we will gladly trade Whitethaw for assurances the Bard and Necro will make it in by launch.
Bloodfire said:Seriously though, the community you have created here is rock solid. We believe in the same things you believe in. We want the same things. If this game takes 10 years to come out you will meet everyone of us in game on day 1. Although, some of us will be playing from nursing homes by then.
Keep going, don't compromise on vision, you are not alone!
Blood
Ditto. VR taking the time it needs to make the game good (& doing it right) is key. I’m loving all of it thus far.
#communitymatters
#makenightmatteragain