I'd go even further and say they shouldn't have the WOW style gainers and spenders. Rage=Momentum=Mana=Chi=Essence=Wrath=Endurance=Vision. All they've done is rename mana to 10 different things and act like it's some new amazing thing. It's a try hard mechanic. I think free, cooldown based abilities like flying kick/mend/backstab/taunt/etc are extremely important for these classes.
Keno Monster said:I'd go even further and say they shouldn't have the WOW style gainers and spenders. Rage=Momentum=Mana=Chi=Essence=Wrath=Endurance=Vision. All they've done is rename mana to 10 different things and act like it's some new amazing thing. It's a try hard mechanic. I think free, cooldown based abilities like flying kick/mend/backstab/taunt/etc are extremely important for these classes.
I tend to disagree,
1- gainers and spenders are not "wow style", they are much older. 'gainers and spenders' is a shallow pool of resource that starts empty, actively replenished by certain skills and depletes by other skills of the same class, the gainers are usually weak single target attacks and spenders are usually strong or AOE attacks.
2- mana, rage, energy are completely different mechanics:
mana his a deep pool of resource that starts full , depleted, and does not replenish during the combat.-> the mechanic is to win the fight before you completely deplete the resource pool.
because when you dont have mana you are completely useless.
rage is a shallow pool of resource that starts empty, and replenish with damage recieved. ->the mechanic is to balance the incoming damage and not to die while being able to use skills and hold aggro.
energy is a shallow pool of resource that starts full, depletes fast but passively replenish fast, so the mechanic here is to choose between burst damage spikes followed by nothing or constant steady but mediocre DPS.
3- i would add another type of resource which is unfortunately underused in most of the MMOs:
the "blood magic". it is a deep pool of resource that starts empty, and actively replenish only when enemy dies in vicinity. the mechanic is slow build, to accumulate resource untill you know that this is enough for you to enter active combat.
and these resource types are dependent one on each other. ( rage is dependent on mana for maintaining the HP, energy dependent on rage to hold aggro, and mana dependent on energy to finish the fight before the rage dies)
sometimes these types are mixed:
like in wow rogue had energy and gainer/spender together, or warlock who have mana and blood magic together (once upon a time you had to gain soul shards from dead enemies), warrior is a mix of rage and gainer system etc...
this type of mixing adds flavour to the class, makes it little different from another class who use similar resource mechanic but different mix.
IMHO: each class should have its own resource mix style.
simple cooldown based abilities completely remove any strategic thought in the combat (if its off CD and you need it, use it) and make all classes exactly the same.
it is fine when only one class has simple cooldown mechanics, it is the 'noob class' , but it is very lame when everybody have simple cooldown mechanic.
I've seen alot of forum talk over the years here about how melee need a resource so we dont run into an issue of "why bring a wizard, they have to med, rogues/monks dont". Gaining and spending resources also seeks to add depth and choices to the combat, increasing the individual use of tactics and strategy by the player. I can understand your points and appreciate your dislike of the mechanic, however I dont think you are going to gain much traction on that front. Good luck tho.
I agree on the part where flying kicks and taunts give spell effects. Sure its nice to know if a warrior is taunting or not, but aside of that it has no added benefit. Afterall for a monk doing a flying kick, you can see it from the animation itsself if you're really interested in that.
I do think there should be a mana like pool for these classes to do abilities other than their absolute core. A taunt for a warrior should be 0 cost like auto attack on a rogue should be 0 cost too. But an AE taunt from a warrior should cost as effectively using this means the group is either overpowered or someone didn't pay attention like they should. Also as pointed out it is to equal DPS classes among the different variations.
If you remove this requirement from a Rogue, it would basically mean you have to remove it from a wizard too. If a rogue gets to use their high dps skill indefinitely so should a wizard.
Keno Monster said:I'd go even further and say they shouldn't have the WOW style gainers and spenders. Rage=Momentum=Mana=Chi=Essence=Wrath=Endurance=Vision. All they've done is rename mana to 10 different things and act like it's some new amazing thing. It's a try hard mechanic. I think free, cooldown based abilities like flying kick/mend/backstab/taunt/etc are extremely important for these classes.
I am going to respectfully yet strongly disagree with the OP and Keno. Having a melee tactical combat resource is critical to having an engaging combat system. Cool down abilities just drive clicking the abilities in a specific order with little to no choice. On the other hand having a tactical resource for fights will force you to think when the right time to use a special ability is rather than how soon is the next time I can use a special ability.
Tactical resources also allow melee characters to have focused effect periods. This could be for high threat, high mitigation/avoidance or high damage. This would allow the focus ability to be used once per rest rather than only once per hour or longer. A really long fight may not give you the opportunity to regenerate enough tactical resource to use your focus ability a second time unless you forgo using your other lesser special abilities.
Ultimately cooldown combat is spreadsheet combat and does more to “dumb down” the game than visualized quest hints, minimaps, at will fast travel and global auction houses, possibly combined.
@Lotuss79 Thanks for addressing this. I agree with everything. We don't need Pantheon cartooned-out and disneyland-uped like every other game out there. Non-hybrid melee is non-hybrid melee plain and simple. If a player wants a lot of magic, then player can play a wizard or magician (summoner). Let's leave Disneyland at Disneyland.
IMO it is the 'gainers' which are the issue. For Casters gains should come from meditation, increased through intellect boosts, potions or spells, not from action but inaction, which is where I think it becomes possible to discern 'gainers' for meelee which should come from action; rage, focus etc.
If the game took this route I'd be quite happy. I also agree with the OP concerning light effects, save it for the casters.
In a world where magic is both real and powerful I am not sure I see the reason to argue that anyone using a sword or bow as their primary means of damage dealing should have so little connection with the Gods and the natural world that they cannot have so much as a single magical ability to go with it. I am sympathetic to the OP's attitude but it does seem reasonable to me that even plain warriors (not paladins) for example could also have some non-mundane abilities.
Even were this not true I agree that having some things that are accumulated and used up makes perfect sense for a physical damage dealer. Endurance is a classic example often used in the genre. Why not?
Unless I've missed something recent, the last we heard on colored mana was that while it would still be a thing, it probably wouldn't be implemented in the way that was originally envisioned.
As far as gainers/spenders, I hope and expect that all the pre-alpha testers who have had a chance to work with the initial class designs have provided a lot of feedback that will ensure that classes all play uniquely - I know I'll be disappointed if classes end up feeling too much alike, gameplay-wise. But, I'm keeping an open mind since there's still a lot of testing and iteration that classes will go through prior to launch.
The whole builder -> spender dynamic is the main reason (IMO) we are stuck in endless MMOs of set rotations and button/GCD spamming.
I think building class resources should mostly be decoupled from abilities and be more of a slow fluctuating passive generation, making spender abilities require more forethought.
I 100% agree with this, having "resource" limits play and creates a headache for developers, its why WoW changes its classes every half expansion.
Melee classes shouldnt have "resource" just CD's, melee damage should come mostly from auto attacks secondly from power attacks.
Personally i hate magical affects on non magical things, you should have to be more aware and patient while doing an encounter, you should look at everything, watch everything, and be ready for anything, rotations are lame as the combat becomes more dependant on that instead of the items you have equipped.
What I find the most irritating and why I dont play WoW anymore is the fact that everyclass has a energy pool now, literally non of it has anything to do with mana anymore which isnt the game i originally bought or put my time into so deeply, if pantheon goes this route perhaps that can communicate with world of warcraft and alternate content releases so we have something to play year around instead of in 2 month increments
In general, I agree with avoiding super magical looking effects for non magic abilities but I think you can have great effects for non-magical abilities without going "Disneyland". However, I don't see why you couldn't have magical effects on magical items-- If the sword has a fire proc by golly I want to see some flames!
In regard to the combat resource chatter--I am a fan of build and spend--it makes it more interesting to me rather than just waiting on cooldowns--You will always end up with an "optimal" rotation as that is just the nature of the beast. I think it is fun to build up to a finishing move and just blast big damage all over the mobs face. Big Crits baby!!
Some level of magical channeling into their attacks is pretty much needed just for monks and the mundane melee classes to work. I mean I guess we could have monks that do only non magical damage, but only if they're absolutely ineffective at dealing damage to armored opponents. Can you imagine punching someone in plate armor? Its not going to be a pretty outcome for the puncher unless they're working some sort of supernatural energy into their blows. This extends somewhat to swords and daggers which weren't very effective against heavier armors.
As far as combat resources, I'd preffer them over cooldowns if only because they make gameplay a little less rigid. Both playstyles can result in optimal skill rotations (and probably will because theres always going to be min/maxers) but I find that resource builders/spenders tend to have a little more flex in them.
Trasak said:Keno Monster said:I'd go even further and say they shouldn't have the WOW style gainers and spenders. Rage=Momentum=Mana=Chi=Essence=Wrath=Endurance=Vision. All they've done is rename mana to 10 different things and act like it's some new amazing thing. It's a try hard mechanic. I think free, cooldown based abilities like flying kick/mend/backstab/taunt/etc are extremely important for these classes.
I am going to respectfully yet strongly disagree with the OP and Keno. Having a melee tactical combat resource is critical to having an engaging combat system. Cool down abilities just drive clicking the abilities in a specific order with little to no choice. On the other hand having a tactical resource for fights will force you to think when the right time to use a special ability is rather than how soon is the next time I can use a special ability.
Tactical resources also allow melee characters to have focused effect periods. This could be for high threat, high mitigation/avoidance or high damage. This would allow the focus ability to be used once per rest rather than only once per hour or longer. A really long fight may not give you the opportunity to regenerate enough tactical resource to use your focus ability a second time unless you forgo using your other lesser special abilities.
Ultimately cooldown combat is spreadsheet combat and does more to “dumb down” the game than visualized quest hints, minimaps, at will fast travel and global auction houses, possibly combined.
Cant agree more, its vital that we dont turn this into ESO combat...
((Cool down abilities just drive clicking the abilities in a specific order with little to no choice. On the other hand having a tactical resource for fights will force you to think when the right time to use a special ability is rather than how soon is the next time I can use a special ability.))
I wholeheartedly agree that the more combat is tactically based rather than rote clicking the better off we are all.
Is cooldown more condusive to set rotations and building up energy or endurance and then using it more condusive to tactical thinking? Here is where you may be right but the case doesn't seem compelling to me.
Suppose I have a really strong damage attack I can use every 60 seconds. Sure I may want to be sure to use it precisely on schedule. But if my endurance builds up and every 60 seconds I can use the endurance for that same attack won't I also want to use it precisely on schedule.
The difference may be that the endurance powers other abilities and I need to consider what ability to use it for. But. then again, if the damage attack is strong enough I may always use the endurance for it. In which case builder versus cooldown doesn't matter. And with a very limited skillbar there may not *be* many other abilities that compete with it. Or - looking at this differently - what if cooldowns were shared and all significant melee abilities had the 60 second cooldown. Wouldn't that give the exact same tactical decision making as having the builder support the same abilities. If you used one as it came off of cooldown you couldn't use the others.
I have no firm opinion here I am just trying to analyze whether there *is* a difference between cooldowns and builders. If the builder supports three abilities is it different from having the same three abilities with a shared cooldown?
Always happy to talk over ideas with you dorotea.
Reading through everyone else’s posts I think I can see that to some degree the “builder” actions are actually the problem that makes a pool system have a specific best performance cycle. If effectively the melee tactical pool did not regen or reset during combat without the assistance of other classes then its usage would be pure of function of when the best time to use it would be. If certain support classes such as bard or shaman had a special ability that recovered some of the tactical resource of the melee classes you could increase class synergy and interdependence. The same could be said though if the ability accelerated the reset of cooldowns.
Lets try another thought on for size.
1) What if all cooldowns reset if you were out of combat for at least 60 seconds. (somewhere between 60-300)
2) All melee classes have 4 different ability groups with shared cool downs. One group had 1-5 tick cooldown. Second had 10-20 tick cool down. Third had 50-100 tick cool down. The forth 300-500 tick cool down. For reference one tick would be 6 seconds and many other game mechanics would be tied to it.
3) Group 1 would have common abilities that add a small amount to your combat role or temporarily modify your auto attacks. These could be set to automatically recast on cooldown if there was a clear best for that combat but by clicking on another it would change your next queued ability and keep doing it until you switched.
4) Group 2 would be your combo/synergy abilities with significant effects. They would have prerequisites condition on either the player or the target before they could be used so which one you choose will be based on what had happened in the last 10-20 ticks.
5) Group 3 would be finishing moves or high powered transitional abilities.
6) Group 4 would be your “oh crap” buttons that you would effectively only be able to use once per fight. This could either have a very long cooldown or a toggle of used or not used that can only be reset with a rest.
7) Certain buffs could reduce the cooldown counter for all or a specific group of abilities.
This would have a lot of the benefits of the tactical pool without the added pool maintenance activities. If you had enough abilities in each group the choices you make could really matter and the right one could change encounter by encounter. This would also give melee a reason to sit down and rest between fights while the blue bars meditate.
((without the assistance of other classes))
Excellent point and one I had totally overlooked.
If other group members can affect your builders but not your cooldowns that in and of itself adds a different tactical dimension. One imposing *group* thinking on all the players not just thinking about their individual performace. Which is a *good* thing. Given that I have these abilities - do I attack a mob, mez a mob, transfer power to a healer who can use that power more effectively than I can use mine (maybe the healer or tank is about to die and the healer is low on power), or transfer endurance to the tank who perhaps can use it for some tanky ability that will keep him or her alive and prevent a wipe.
Conceivably you can have abilities that affect the cooldowns of groupmates but in practice abilities affecting their resource pools are more common in MMOs and probably for very good reasons.
Trasak this point alone is enough to persuade me that while my analysis of cooldown versus reousrce pool (I prefer that term to builder - not all pools necessarily build) may have been accurate enough on a per-character basis, on a per-group basis or per-raid basis you are quite likely correct.
I would say that there is also a good case for merging the two systems a bit. If each cooldown group tier had several abilities that cost little to no resources you would still have something to do even during periods where you were trying to conserve your tactical resources. Or there just could be abilities that do cost TR points and others that don’t and you have a global cooldown on all abilities. The maximum pool size, ability cost and opportunities to regain points would dictate when and how often to use point costing abilities.
As far as group synergy options the sky is the limit. Refilling bars be they health, mana or stamina is a very easy mechanic to program into support abilities. I believe Pantheon UI is already going to have an offensive target and support target to draw from for all classes so not just healers would have a built in ability to use it. There could be general “everyone else in the group” effects and “raid members in aoe” effects as other targeting choices.
I could see general replenishment, % cost reductions all the way up to 100% for a certain amount of time, added effects to abilities based on the number of points spent. Even special circumstance abilities based on the number of points that other characters used recently. There are a ton of ways to go with it.