Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Raid class make-up vs Group class make-up balance

    • 123 posts
    February 12, 2019 8:57 PM PST

    One thing I have noticed in other MMO's is the class make-up of a group does not relate to the raid make-up.  By this I mean in a 4 group raid, you need 4 tanks and 4 healers to level the 4 groups up to raid status; however, raids do not normally (I know some games have exceptions) need 4 tanks/healers in a 4 group raid and would rather replace them with more damage to kill the boss faster which means less heals needed and less tanking needed.

     

    Currently 4 tanks, 4 healers, 4 support, and 12 DPS will be the initial 4 group composition to level (Yes, there will be non-norm group compositions).  Should raids (not all, need some diversity) be balanced around the expected group composition to level?  By balanced I mean creating the raid with the different classes in mind (need 4 tanks, there should be a use for each tank: tank swapping, adds, etc).

     

    • 1785 posts
    February 12, 2019 9:29 PM PST

    One of the reasons that you need fewer tanks (as an example) for raids in other games than you would if you were fielding the same number of people as individual groups is, simply put, unimaginative encounter design.

    I hope and expect that raiding in Pantheon will not always be about a single Big Monster, and will instead come up with creative ways to give us really challenging content that takes a large group of players to complete.  I'm sure there will be some (I mean, Dragons), but even those encounters can be set up so that if you're taking 3 tanks along, you have a reason for really needing 3 tanks, and you're not just doing it because that's what you had to have to set up a raid group.

    We'll have to see :)

    • 1479 posts
    February 12, 2019 10:59 PM PST

    I agree a lot of games go to lazy design, simply because group makeup composition is not a necessity to level up, which translate into reducing the amount of required key roles in raid as they are underplayed and would hinder the ability to raid of others (mostly, DPS).

     

    I've never found a balance in that design, or a logic outside of convenience. In the end you're making key roles mandatory for some content, but the more you depend on them, the less they are required to favor the waiting lines of DPS players.

     

    The more evident case here is FFXIV where party composition is forced, with a setup of 1 tank, 2 heal and 2 dps for party composition. But with alliance raid beeing 24 players, they ended up at start with 6 tanks, 6 heals and 12 dps. They however, lacked the ability to make fights use thoses 6 tanks and pretty much everyone complained as it made waiting lines too long for players and was useless.

    Which they solved by replacing half the tank slots by DPS slots, making an imbalance in the need of the game since almost any other activity requires 25% tanks, while this one requires only 12.5%, and the waiting line gets longer for tanks for no reason but lazy design, as there were around 20% active tanks overall class dispredancy.

    • 40 posts
    February 13, 2019 4:24 AM PST

    Why give the Warrior Shield Link and not need the two Warriors necessary to do it? So hopefully raid groups will find utility in having two Warriors given abilities like this.

    As a long time Enchanter in EQ, I appreciate this concept a lot, because it is a wall crowd control device which may make an opening to mez several mobs while the Link keeps them off me. Will have to see it in action and probably learn the hard way. LOL.

    The one thing I'm pretty certain of, is it will create more communication and coordination and precise timing opportunities than the last 10 years of MMORPG games demand. And thats a very good thing.


    This post was edited by Malla at February 13, 2019 4:27 AM PST
    • 124 posts
    February 13, 2019 5:43 AM PST

    good question, something that has always concerned me in the past. With most (if not all) previous MMO's (including Everquest) you only really needed 1 or 2 pure tanks in a 12 group raid. Instead of the 12 that was required for leveling up those 12 groups as a whole. This made the tanks for group content very wanted, but lacking in the raid department, as there was simply to many of them. That became a problem as more people switched mains to something other than a tank, effectively halting open world grouping.

    The same in EQ1 also happened to healers tho. Because with complete heal rotation, you sometimes needed more than the 12 clerics said groups would be logically delivering. So here it worked the other way around. A surplus was required for raids, and thus the group content got overloaded with clerics. 'Healers' like druids and shamans in raids were used to spot heal to offload stress from the clerics, and the occasional ranger who had a heal loaded (-50DKP!).

    I am hoping this won't happen to Pantheon. I'm hoping the open world grouping community near flawlessly will transfer to raid content.

    • 2419 posts
    February 13, 2019 7:13 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    One of the reasons that you need fewer tanks (as an example) for raids in other games than you would if you were fielding the same number of people as individual groups is, simply put, unimaginative encounter design.

    I hope and expect that raiding in Pantheon will not always be about a single Big Monster, and will instead come up with creative ways to give us really challenging content that takes a large group of players to complete.  I'm sure there will be some (I mean, Dragons), but even those encounters can be set up so that if you're taking 3 tanks along, you have a reason for really needing 3 tanks, and you're not just doing it because that's what you had to have to set up a raid group.

    We'll have to see :)

    It was Vex Thal of all places where every hallway and room was filled with mobs (many of which would split upon death) and, at least for my guild, we took advantage of bringing along 8+ tanks to make that zone far more enjoyable and interesting for everyone while also significantly reducing the time it took to clear the place. We'd send a rogue ahead to target each mob and designate a tank to each one.  We'd then just aggro the entire room and as the mobs rushed us each tank would grab their mob.  As one group would finish their mob they would move to assist the next group, etc until everything was dead.  Rinse and repeat.

    The Emperor Ssraezhsha fight that also needed you to employ multiple tanks to handle the non-mezzable mobs in his room.

    I was never a fan of the 'everone gang up on 1 mob' fight, preferring those encounters where coordination between groups because each had a specific responsibility was just more exciting.  The more Pantheon can have those types of encounters the better with the 1 big boss everyone beats on sprinkled in for good measure.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at February 13, 2019 9:11 AM PST
    • 287 posts
    February 13, 2019 7:24 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    It was Vex Thal ... We'd send a rogue ahead to target each mob and designate a tank to each one.

    I was that rogue for my guild.  Some of the best times I had in EQ.  I was the only one who loved VT.

     

    This problem is the reason so many games allow for different specs/builds/talents.  Some of your tanks could go dps for the raid so they had a purpose and could be included in an encounter that only needed 1 or 2 tanks.

    No matter how VR addresses this issue I hope they also find ways to involve dps more than just stand-n-poke/cast.  DPS has the easiest job in the game and makes up the majority of players.  Encounters need to be designed that somehow involve them more and something beyond simply staying out of the fire that comes and goes.  There are a lot of things VR could do in encoutner design to accomplish that.

    • 1921 posts
    February 13, 2019 7:26 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    One of the reasons that you need fewer tanks (as an example) for raids in other games than you would if you were fielding the same number of people as individual groups is, simply put, unimaginative encounter design.

    I hope and expect that raiding in Pantheon will not always be about a single Big Monster, and will instead come up with creative ways to give us really challenging content that takes a large group of players to complete.  I'm sure there will be some (I mean, Dragons), but even those encounters can be set up so that if you're taking 3 tanks along, you have a reason for really needing 3 tanks, and you're not just doing it because that's what you had to have to set up a raid group.

    We'll have to see :)

    Agreed.  I don't think they've shown any boss scripting for multi-mob boss encounters yet, but I could be remembering badly. 
    At the very least, I would rather not, yet again, learn to play my role/class for 50 levels, only to find out... "Oh, sorry, you've been doing it wrong that whole time, now you get to do it THIS different way, just for raiding". Not as awesome. 
    If the intended raid size is at least two groups, it seems reasonable you would need... wait for it... two groups of roles! :)  Here's to hoping.

    • 696 posts
    February 13, 2019 8:20 AM PST

    Yea WoW usually only needed two tanks in most fights. Most bosses had the same foundation of abilities, which is some buff/buff stack that makes you tank switch, crap on the ground that you move away from, its usual dmg type abilities that aren't really avoidable, adds, phases, and then some originality to make the fight feel different.

    I remember Avatar of War needing something like 20 tanks as a meat shield wall because that boss had a chance of one shotting, and he did that alot lol.

    I would like to see raids that utilize all tanks and healers to a degree, but we will see. They did however, from their FAQ, put raiding on the same importance as soloing, so I assume it will be lackluster, but we will see.

    • 3852 posts
    February 13, 2019 8:37 AM PST

    I do not disagree at all - but is it good design or *bad* design to make a four group raid that works most smoothly with 4 tanks and 4 healers.

    In many games tanks or healers or both are bottlenecks - most characters are some form of dps and waiting for tanks and healers can take a long time. MauvaisOeil was entirely correct in the reference to FFXIV grouping.

    As in many things Pantheon may be different. A large percentage of us will focus on grouping as the core part of the game and will choose classes with this in mind. We will do so *knowing* that historically tanks and healers get into groups much faster than dps. I would guess that tanks and healers will be in much greater supply than we are used to. In fact it wouldn't shock me if it was easier for a dps to find a group - quite a ...role reversal.

    So whereas in many games I would say that raids should only require one or two tanks and healers in order to match character composition in the game as a whole - here I wind up concluding that I agree with the OP.

    Of course I started off with agreement that boss fights shouldn't just be one boss with "run from pixel to pixel" mechanics but should involve multiple enemies that weren't simply scripted. That can be done in a way that doesn't require one tank and one healer per group but best in *this* game to have both flexibility (you don't automatically wipe if you do not have the one perfect raid composition) and a real use for all those tanks and healers.

    • 123 posts
    February 13, 2019 10:52 AM PST

    Akilae said:

    No matter how VR addresses this issue I hope they also find ways to involve dps more than just stand-n-poke/cast.  DPS has the easiest job in the game and makes up the majority of players.  Encounters need to be designed that somehow involve them more and something beyond simply staying out of the fire that comes and goes.  There are a lot of things VR could do in encoutner design to accomplish that.

     

    I agree.  Having a fun and engaging raid encounter will be one of the items I am looking for.

    • 1120 posts
    February 13, 2019 12:31 PM PST

    Malla said:

    The one thing I'm pretty certain of, is it will create more communication and coordination and precise timing opportunities than the last 10 years of MMORPG games demand. And thats a very good thing.

    If you think WoW doesnt require communication you're not playing at a high enough level. 

    Watemper said:

    I remember Avatar of War needing something like 20 tanks as a meat shield wall because that boss had a chance of one shotting, and he did that alot lol.

    This is just false.  You only needed 4 warriors to chain defensive disc, when the disc was up you could just let that warrior die and continue CCHing the next.  You hardly needed 20 tanks.


    This post was edited by Porygon at February 13, 2019 12:33 PM PST
    • 696 posts
    February 14, 2019 12:09 PM PST

    Porygon said:

    Malla said:

    The one thing I'm pretty certain of, is it will create more communication and coordination and precise timing opportunities than the last 10 years of MMORPG games demand. And thats a very good thing.

    If you think WoW doesnt require communication you're not playing at a high enough level. 

    Watemper said:

    I remember Avatar of War needing something like 20 tanks as a meat shield wall because that boss had a chance of one shotting, and he did that alot lol.

    This is just false.  You only needed 4 warriors to chain defensive disc, when the disc was up you could just let that warrior die and continue CCHing the next.  You hardly needed 20 tanks.

    Well out of the few downs of AOW until luclin, One Zerg group had about 20 tanks, but yeah probably 4 tanks.  Problem was if you weren't pretty geared he would one shot you fairly quickly.  But most of the downs during era had a lot of tanks invovled. Was just much easier. Before it was charming the giants nearby until Verant fixed that.