Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Flagging

    • 11 posts
    February 3, 2019 4:20 PM PST

    In EQ1 flagging for new zones was often done by killing a specific target mob.  I was thinking it would be interesting if sometimes a progression mob would require more than just taking down the target for a flag, but by a achieving a feat that takes extra effort during the event.  So that taking down the target would get you the loot but the higher effort required achievement would get you the flag.

    • 3047 posts
    February 3, 2019 4:26 PM PST

    I think this could end up being a very interesting dynamic, depending on how it's implemented.  I suggested something similar for a "Coliseum" where players would kill monsters for sport.  It wouldn't really make sense that players would be trying to get fancy out in the open world, especially with content that is already challenging, and the game having a meaningful death penalty intact.  If a coliseum were to exist, though ... I absolutely agree.  I think it would be great if there were various performance metrics/objectives that could enhance the overall difficulty ceiling of "mastering" an encounter, especially if it's done in an arena type of setting that is filled with spectators.  Check out this thread:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5217/coliseum


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 3, 2019 8:27 PM PST
    • 8 posts
    February 3, 2019 4:41 PM PST

    The best flagging quests in EQ were in Kunark. They were usually short to medium length quests involving killing rare mobs, occasionally a raid mob (Trakanon for Veeshans Peak key). They were really well designed, especially the sebilis key. Sebilis was the best xp spot for a long time, but you didn't want the trains like an open zone like Karnor's Castle. So the key acted a bit like a test to prove you could handle the zone. The mobs were killed almost as soon as they were up, but not perma-camped. If you had to do a certain difficult feat, then the roadblock would be much worse for everyone.

    It's a fine line between a sensible key side-quest and an unecessary roadblock that plays no role but to deny players content. For example, the VT key in Luclin where maximum level raiders were forced to invade low level zones and kill mobs people were levelling on just to get a rare item that could spawn from any number of mobs. Not only did thid annoy the raiders, but also the lower level players just peacefully playing.

    • 552 posts
    February 3, 2019 8:00 PM PST
    That does sound very interesting. Mind is going a mile a minute thinking of possibilities
    • 207 posts
    February 3, 2019 8:52 PM PST

    @samir Veeshan's Peak key was just as bad as VT key, running around the world clicking bags on long respawn timers. Honestly, I would rather do the VT key where I know I can get the pieces if I am killing the right thing.

    I'd prefer Planes of Power style where you kill a boss, get a flag or drop. However, it needs to be automatic - so many people would forget to loot the piece, or not hail the correct NPC....RiP.

    • 1039 posts
    February 5, 2019 3:42 PM PST

    I really disliked some of the flagging systems of EQ, especially when it was combined with raid progression blocking guilds. The VP key was ok, it was designed for a group to do with many solo elements. Raid flagging though, as in PoP was horrible (and it made the game seem so small). Also, remember that flagging was a HUGE headache in PoP due to new guild members, or members who missed various raids and had to be back flagged. PoP pretty much killed the game for my friends and guild members. I really think they need to be VERY careful about implementing these types of locks as even the PoJ trials which were just group trials became a massive pain in flagging people. There has to be a better way to pace content than with raid level mob keying. 

     

    • 720 posts
    February 5, 2019 4:19 PM PST

    Flagging can be fun, but it was implemented rather poorly in EQ. Basically if you missed a raid, then the whole raid would either be forced to do that boss again for you...or they would leave you behind. Doing a flagging system with 72 people was a nightmare. Especially when you have 5-10 or so subs that guilds usually had for when other people didn't show up. 

     

    I am not sure how it could be implemented in a fun way. I would assume that you would have a lot of general raids and find the threshold of only needing something like 5 out of 10 of these raid bosses to get flagged for this area. This would allow for more flexible time...but they would have to play around with what a good threshold is for flagging.

    • 1789 posts
    February 5, 2019 4:35 PM PST

    I thought EQ2 did flagging quite well, at least for VP. You completed lower level raids to get access to VP. Then, you had to complete a wing before they allowed you into the next wing. When all VP done at least once, you got flagged for Trak.

    It established a clear progression that guilds could work towards and ensure you could handle the next phase before you entered.

    You had to clear the zones repeatedly anyways, to get everyone full gear sets. So, people missing a few raids did not cause problems.


    This post was edited by Beefcake at February 5, 2019 4:37 PM PST
    • 207 posts
    February 5, 2019 6:34 PM PST

    The flag could go to the guild instead of the individual, so if you weren't online or hail the correct NPC - you would still the get flag because your guild was successful. Obviously there would need to be some measures in place to block from abuse (selling flags etc).

    • 1602 posts
    February 5, 2019 6:59 PM PST

    Flagging is a poop butt mechanic used to delay content consumption. 

    • 1789 posts
    February 5, 2019 7:07 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    The flag could go to the guild instead of the individual, so if you weren't online or hail the correct NPC - you would still the get flag because your guild was successful. Obviously there would need to be some measures in place to block from abuse (selling flags etc).

    I really hope not. I would hate to see entire guilds gain access due to the works of a few dedicated members. You should have to earn the achievement to gain the benefits, not let some friends do it for you.


    This post was edited by Beefcake at February 5, 2019 7:08 PM PST
    • 720 posts
    February 6, 2019 8:35 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I thought EQ2 did flagging quite well, at least for VP. You completed lower level raids to get access to VP. Then, you had to complete a wing before they allowed you into the next wing. When all VP done at least once, you got flagged for Trak.

    It established a clear progression that guilds could work towards and ensure you could handle the next phase before you entered.

    You had to clear the zones repeatedly anyways, to get everyone full gear sets. So, people missing a few raids did not cause problems.

     

    See that to me is a problem. If you miss one of the raid days..then you are essentially stuck until they complete that wing again. Was the same process in EQ. If you missed a certain boss then you were pretty much screwed until it popped up again.

     

    With VP it was fine because it wasn't hard to get in...but if we go to the scale of Planes of Power with several tiers of planar raiding...then it can become a nightmare if you miss a day of raiding.

     

    If I think about it with encounter locking raid mobs and having them spawn rather quickly...it won't be that bad. Also depends on raid size and how many subs you have.

    • 1039 posts
    February 6, 2019 8:38 AM PST

    Watemper said:

    Beefcake said:

    I thought EQ2 did flagging quite well, at least for VP. You completed lower level raids to get access to VP. Then, you had to complete a wing before they allowed you into the next wing. When all VP done at least once, you got flagged for Trak.

    It established a clear progression that guilds could work towards and ensure you could handle the next phase before you entered.

    You had to clear the zones repeatedly anyways, to get everyone full gear sets. So, people missing a few raids did not cause problems.

     

    See that to me is a problem. If you miss one of the raid days..then you are essentially stuck until they complete that wing again. Was the same process in EQ. If you missed a certain boss then you were pretty much screwed until it popped up again.

     

    With VP it was fine because it wasn't hard to get in...but if we go to the scale of Planes of Power with several tiers of planar raiding...then it can become a nightmare if you miss a day of raiding.

     

    If I think about it with encounter locking raid mobs and having them spawn rather quickly...it won't be that bad. Also depends on raid size and how many subs you have.

    Yep, people fail to realize how many things a forced mechanic can have on the over all game systems. It is how many games of the modern era became boring "on rails" attractions because so many mechanics were put into play to curb negative behavior, that it also ended up destroying all but a very narrow play approach. 

     

    • 720 posts
    February 6, 2019 8:45 AM PST

    Yeah. I am fine ultimately with the encounter locking and a wait period for raid mobs. I think it was a nightmare having only a few guilds dominate the landscape of raiding and content blocking. I would rather be blocked by a hard boss than 24/7 zerg guilds...but that is the extent I would go for encounter locking. 

    • 1208 posts
    February 6, 2019 12:48 PM PST
    i thought the PoP flagging system was a dumpster fire and it ultimatley killed the game for me. I found it asnine to build an entire expansion in which the only way to advance and consume it was to fill in prescribed check boxes of tasks, in order, thru dozens of long contiguous gameplay sessions with dozens of others players. It eliminated the fluid and flexible nature of the game that had previously existed and turned it into a job.
    • 1543 posts
    February 6, 2019 6:24 PM PST

    I like flagging in any form and the greater the variety the better.  There wasn't a single EQ1 flag quest/task that I didn't thoroughly enjoy.

    • 76 posts
    February 11, 2019 12:00 PM PST

    I agree with most of this, IMHO flagging is a necessary mechanic, it slows the population down a bit giving the Devs a little breathing room.

    I am all for mechanics that slow the leveling pace, and the progression pace in general so that content is consumed slower thus giving the devs breathing room to design new content for us that is better thought out and better overall, not rushed.

    • 720 posts
    February 11, 2019 12:14 PM PST

    If you make the raids gear dependent/and skill, then that should be a flagging system in itself.  It's also not an in your face mechanic either.

    • 1039 posts
    February 12, 2019 7:02 AM PST

    Watemper said:

    If you make the raids gear dependent/and skill, then that should be a flagging system in itself.  It's also not an in your face mechanic either.

     

    I liked how EQ did some of its raid designs. For instance, PoA had end boss encounters of mobs that were far beyond the ability of the current content and it took an expansion before people started to be able to beat the content. EQ was notorious for putting in certain "near impossible" bosses for each release of content which would create soft blocks on content progression. 

    I would like to see such content for both group and raid in Pantheon, where the encounters are designed to the absoultely limit of gear and skill in play, where a single mistake causes a fail, where the risk is enormous, but... there is a chance, however very small to which the content could be beat and the reward would match the risk. 

    You have a good point about gear dependence as well. Too many modern games design the progression based on the players action/play ability rather than the development of their character. There is nothing wrong with such play, but traditional RPGs are strongly about the metrics of the character used in conjunction with player choice. It is what differeniates that of an action/arcade game and that of a RPG. The point is, the characters statistics are a component of play and no matter how skilled a player is, that skill should not allow them to disregard this element of play. 

    If they go back to this form of RPG play, the content will have requirements that must be met or failure will be most likely. This reduces the gimmick aspect of many arcade games , where once a person learns the trick, the encounter is easy (ie the RPG system in Dark Souls being merely cosmetic).


    This post was edited by Tanix at February 12, 2019 7:03 AM PST
    • 2304 posts
    February 12, 2019 7:55 AM PST

    ((Too many modern games design the progression based on the players action/play ability rather than the development of their character. ))

     

    Oh this is *so* true. Many encounters in many games seem to be mostly "follow the script" and once you have learned the script you win - assuming even a moderate level of gear and player competence.

    A few days ago someone posted in the LOTRO forums how outrageously wrong and unfair it was if a raid boss didn't always do the exact same thing whenever it hit certain thresholds such as losing 20% of its hit points. How can raiders be expected to do a raid if they couldn't follow the script with absolute comfort?

    I replied noting that fighting a raid boss shouldn't be a scripted dance with steps, but a *fight* and mentioning the old axiom that "no battle plan survives encounter with the enemy. That is why they are called the enemy."

    I didn't get disagreement as I expected - I got total incomprehension. Someone congratulated me on a clever post trolling for replies to an outrageous concept.

    • 720 posts
    February 12, 2019 8:19 AM PST

    Yeah, I could imagine a raid boss that could differentiate its abilities and pattern in general based off not only raid size, but how many of certain classes etc. Their will always be some sort of pattern in a Boss, because no true AI, but you can definetly go through a few layers of depth to make them seem interesting enough.

    • 1039 posts
    February 12, 2019 9:43 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    I didn't get disagreement as I expected - I got total incomprehension. Someone congratulated me on a clever post trolling for replies to an outrageous concept.

    This unfortunately is all too common these days. Not simply disagreement due to an alternate style of position of opinion, but complete and utter incomprehension to the point where they think you are being facetious. 

    • 110 posts
    February 12, 2019 5:34 PM PST

    The first couple/few flags for EQ PoP were ok with me.  I had weekends off at the time.  Landed a new job and with that came different hours and weekends working.  At that point I fell behind in a couple flags for PoP.  I would hang out in whatever the entry zone for PoP was and would contact guilds as they were forming up in groups. iirc the last raid group I tried contacting had around errr 70 to 80 people.  What a buffing nightmare. haha. Anyways...  after a few failed tries chatting with officers, not involved in the organizing, could not convince anyone to just pop me in the very last slot as a tag along.  I knew how to raid, would accompany a couple other friendly guilds with their raids, but in the end nothing worked out.  I must admit it turned out to be a frustrating waste of time.  Really couldn't progress and couldn't raid with my guild in zones I wasn't flagged for.  I'd say by the next month is when I left EQ.

    Also, keep in mind if you do have big raid flag/key event requirements what happens after a year or two when new players join Pantheon?  You've worked hard to provide content that you, the developer, have created ending up a possible road block for some as the content ages.  At least keeping flag/key requirements partly solo partly group allows older content to have a better chance of being utilized in the future.

     

    Just offering another view point.  


    This post was edited by valhalla at February 12, 2019 5:38 PM PST
    • 1571 posts
    February 12, 2019 11:12 PM PST

    valhalla said:

    The first couple/few flags for EQ PoP were ok with me.  I had weekends off at the time.  Landed a new job and with that came different hours and weekends working.  At that point I fell behind in a couple flags for PoP.  I would hang out in whatever the entry zone for PoP was and would contact guilds as they were forming up in groups. iirc the last raid group I tried contacting had around errr 70 to 80 people.  What a buffing nightmare. haha. Anyways...  after a few failed tries chatting with officers, not involved in the organizing, could not convince anyone to just pop me in the very last slot as a tag along.  I knew how to raid, would accompany a couple other friendly guilds with their raids, but in the end nothing worked out.  I must admit it turned out to be a frustrating waste of time.  Really couldn't progress and couldn't raid with my guild in zones I wasn't flagged for.  I'd say by the next month is when I left EQ.

    Also, keep in mind if you do have big raid flag/key event requirements what happens after a year or two when new players join Pantheon?  You've worked hard to provide content that you, the developer, have created ending up a possible road block for some as the content ages.  At least keeping flag/key requirements partly solo partly group allows older content to have a better chance of being utilized in the future.

     

    Just offering another view point.  

     

    I think the concern here is that PoP flagging was extreme, with a lot of very hard boss that were not rewarding for a raid to kill outside of flagging everyone, mixed with the week long boss respawn, made it a nightmare to reflag people. I don't think there is a strong need to be so far in spectrum of difficulty, however making it part of a character achievement is important to me, just like getting sebilis or sleeper's tomb keys.

    But it shouldn't require 40 people and a full evening to catch back a flag on one characters, and flags shouldn't be so chained that if you miss the train at one station, you're out of the remaining flagging chain.

    • 184 posts
    February 13, 2019 7:13 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    I like flagging in any form and the greater the variety the better.  There wasn't a single EQ1 flag quest/task that I didn't thoroughly enjoy.

    I agree. I really enjoyed the flagging in EQ1, even in PoP.  Even if someone missed a flag kill the guild wasn't going to kill it once and be done.  That mob had to be killed a bunch of times to get the gear to be able to beat the next, more difficult boss.  It was fun collecting all the keys and flags in the game.