**As a disclaimer to the devs. This post is not meant to become a flame fest but I understand if you feel you need to lock it down. BUT, I do believe that in the gaming industry someone somewhere needs to address the rising (rising...its freakin risen and festerred) issue that this post is highlighting.**
To start off I want to first say that any criticism is welcomed. I want this to be a discussion and, as I mentioned above, not a pie throwing contest. Something that I do not want to see in Pantheon and what I would love the team at Visionary Realms to have is a hard stance on toxicity between players. This should be a hard stance both in the game and out of the game (meaning on the forums). Toxicity has been a plague to the industry ever since Everquest and people training / stealing camps on purpose. I myself have been back and forth on the subject of player driven policing and GM enforced. This is not a simple issue beyond players throwing vulgar words at eachother and what I dont want is this to blow up on one side or the other. The simple thing that I would like to see is not necessarily to enforce AGAINST toxicity which I am very well aware the team at VR is going to already have a plan for but to ENCOURAGE respect between not only players but to the communities we will be occupying the same space with.
Not to over explain the issue but I would really like to see players game together instead of dragging others down to get ahead. Now that I have said that I will await the impending troll responses, backhand comments and other negative attitudes I have come to expect out of this genre. Please prove me wrong.
ecdubz said:**As a disclaimer to the devs. This post is not meant to become a flame fest but I understand if you feel you need to lock it down. BUT, I do believe that in the gaming industry someone somewhere needs to address the rising (rising...its freakin risen and festerred) issue that this post is highlighting.**
To start off I want to first say that any criticism is welcomed. I want this to be a discussion and, as I mentioned above, not a pie throwing contest. Something that I do not want to see in Pantheon and what I would love the team at Visionary Realms to have is a hard stance on toxicity between players. This should be a hard stance both in the game and out of the game (meaning on the forums). Toxicity has been a plague to the industry ever since Everquest and people training / stealing camps on purpose. I myself have been back and forth on the subject of player driven policing and GM enforced. This is not a simple issue beyond players throwing vulgar words at eachother and what I dont want is this to blow up on one side or the other. The simple thing that I would like to see is not necessarily to enforce AGAINST toxicity which I am very well aware the team at VR is going to already have a plan for but to ENCOURAGE respect between not only players but to the communities we will be occupying the same space with.
Not to over explain the issue but I would really like to see players game together instead of dragging others down to get ahead. Now that I have said that I will await the impending troll responses, backhand comments and other negative attitudes I have come to expect out of this genre. Please prove me wrong.
Define "toxicity"? How do you expect them to attend to your issue if you do not properly outline and define what it is?
Toxicity (via FD training) has been demonstrated since the 2017 videos. It's being designed as part of the game.
Community solutions to the problem (such as changing FD to a ~30+ minute re-use timer, so it's a class bonus instead a CC replacement) were not well received, and no dev commentary was offered. /shrug
Believe me, it would absolutely make my day (maybe even week) if they announced they would be balancing FD so it can't be used for malicious training, but.. that's not currently a public design goal.
vjek said:Toxicity (via FD training) has been demonstrated since the 2017 videos. It's being designed as part of the game.
Community solutions to the problem (such as changing FD to a ~30+ minute re-use timer, so it's a class bonus instead a CC replacement) were not well received, and no dev commentary was offered. /shrug
Believe me, it would absolutely make my day (maybe even week) if they announced they would be balancing FD so it can't be used for malicious training, but.. that's not currently a public design goal.
I find in most cases for poor behavior, the best solution is community (black listing worked very well in EQ) and under key issues, GM action. Everytime I see a game design solution, it pretty much just ends up killing the game mechanic. If the community is hard on it and GMs under clear cases ban it, I think it will be tolerable. Fact is, in EQ we still had people who trained, who are of less than desirable social natures, and we still were able to enjoy the game.
Tanix said:Define "toxicity"? How do you expect them to attend to your issue if you do not properly outline and define what it is?
I could give you my definition of "toxicity" but it would absolutely vary from yours or even the devs. It is an undefinted line that you must cross in order to get what you want or to put across what you intend to put across no matter the consequences or aftereffects. What I say could mean nothing to me but I could be insulting the very being of another person.
If you must require an example I will leave it to league of legends. This may not be the best example but it will define, in my own opinion, how you can take something small in a game and make it "toxic". League of legends is known for being a very toxic community as it has a highly competitive atmosphere. Each champion has a number of displayable danced, laughs, and joke commands via keybindings. Players have taken that mechanic and spam it infront of other players as a sort of taunt. I have found this in other games that have a similar level of competitiveness like For Honor as well. It turns a simple game mechanic into something to smear in another persons face which again in my own opinion is extremely toxic.
And that is only one side of the same slimy ever changing rubix cube that is the evolving toxicity atmosphere.
A 'hard stance' against toxicity can be very problematic.
Obviously mods and GM's can intervene when reports come in and they see the situation is getting out of hand or someone is misbehaving repeatedly, but there's a fine line between that and people getting punished because of false reports, when something that was said was taken out of context, or because someone gets provoked.
In my opinion it's also far better if behavior like camp stealing is community policed. The most appropriate punishment for such things is getting a bad reputation and being denied a chance to join groups. It's not something VR should bother policing.
I once got banned from WoW for a few hours because of two simple /tells.
The situation was as follows. I was undercutting someone's prices in the auction house as one of the two most competitive jewelcrafters on my server shortly after the Burning Crusade expansion's release. Whenever I saw the other guy remove his items and put them up for sale for less, I'd do the same. He messaged me telling me how much of a lowlife I was and I responded with something along the lines of 'lol, stop crying and deal with it.' He then kept harrassing me for several more minutes until I sent him a second tell that said "f*** off, idiot" (uncensored). After that he went quiet and a few minutes later I was kicked off the server, suspended.
I did appeal by email - which was accepted - and I got back in the game in a couple of hours later.
Moral of the story is the fight against toxicity can be taken too far. Obviously I should've just put the guy on ignore and went about my business, but the punishment issued against me was also completely unfit for such a minor offense. People should always get a warning first and a chance to explain themselves before any action is taken.
allow individuals to work it out via pvp. honestly it's burdening for devs to focus on policing players behavior. i'd rather them work on the game. why not let players police other players? although i highly doubt this will happen. pvp is a rather touchy subject in the pantheon forums.
The only fix for toxicity between/among people in any instance rather that be a game, a sport event, or work, or anything really is an individuals ability to shrug it off, if a person cant do this, then they should seek professional help, gaming devs are not phsychiatrists or phsychologists.
ecdubz said:Tanix said:Define "toxicity"? How do you expect them to attend to your issue if you do not properly outline and define what it is?
I could give you my definition of "toxicity" but it would absolutely vary from yours or even the devs. It is an undefinted line that you must cross in order to get what you want or to put across what you intend to put across no matter the consequences or aftereffects. What I say could mean nothing to me but I could be insulting the very being of another person.
If you must require an example I will leave it to league of legends. This may not be the best example but it will define, in my own opinion, how you can take something small in a game and make it "toxic". League of legends is known for being a very toxic community as it has a highly competitive atmosphere. Each champion has a number of displayable danced, laughs, and joke commands via keybindings. Players have taken that mechanic and spam it infront of other players as a sort of taunt. I have found this in other games that have a similar level of competitiveness like For Honor as well. It turns a simple game mechanic into something to smear in another persons face which again in my own opinion is extremely toxic.
And that is only one side of the same slimy ever changing rubix cube that is the evolving toxicity atmosphere.
If we can not establish a clear bounds to an offense, then there can be no legitimate actions to curb it. You can not manage somerthing based on vague definitions, it is completely illogical, bordering on insanity.
I think this brings up a valid point though. Because the topic is subjective, it is then up to the players themselves to understand that they live in a world with other people, which means they may not always approve of the behavior others have and so must developer a certain level of tolerance when they encounter it.
A better means of establishing a rule to is when a player specifically infringes on another individual through various means. An example would be keeping you from being able to play the game in some manner (ie kill stealing, training, etc..).
The fact that someone might stand in front of you and be insulting is not something I would even care to put a rule to. Naturally, people will be mocking, arrogant, insulting, etc.. this is human nature. It is also a component of being an adult to recognize that this is the case and have the maturity to deal with it, not letting yourself get emotionally offended or upset.
So, Toxcity by your definition, I agree promoting respectful behavior is good, but past that, unless they directly infringe and interupt ones ability to play the game, it is really just a process of being an adult and dealing with the world. /shrug
Riqq said:The only fix for toxicity between/among people in any instance rather that be a game, a sport event, or work, or anything really is an individuals ability to shrug it off, if a person cant do this, then they should seek professional help, gaming devs are not phsychiatrists or phsychologists.
Exactly, and this is what we used to call... being an adult.
Riqq said:The only fix for toxicity between/among people in any instance rather that be a game, a sport event, or work, or anything really is an individuals ability to shrug it off, if a person cant do this, then they should seek professional help, gaming devs are not phsychiatrists or phsychologists.
While that's a very popular rebuttal every time this subject comes up just about anywhere, I'm not entirely in agreement with that either.
Folks shouldn't act like it's normal to repeatedly spout insults, when they're very obviously not meant to be interpreted in an endearing or jesting manner (as sometimes happens among friends). If someone steps out of line multiple times and gets reported for it on several separate occasions, it's a good time for a GM to have a chat with that person.
stellarmind said:allow individuals to work it out via pvp. honestly it's burdening for devs to focus on policing players behavior. i'd rather them work on the game. why not let players police other players? although i highly doubt this will happen. pvp is a rather touchy subject in the pantheon forums.
I prefer to simply ignore them or black list them if they are persistent in their idoicy. I remember one guy was a complete moron when I played EQ. THe guy didn't know me and didn't realize I would often pull for many of the guilds on the server when their monks were offline or unable. So, he acted like a moron, was very insulting, going far beyond being just an arse. So... I black listed him with my guild and all the guilds I pulled for. Since I was also a well know group former for my server (I would throw together groups all the time), word got around and he didn't find very many groups to join. Eventually he say and whined about it in the zone chat and then moved to a different server.
Kaeldorn said:Riqq said:The only fix for toxicity between/among people in any instance rather that be a game, a sport event, or work, or anything really is an individuals ability to shrug it off, if a person cant do this, then they should seek professional help, gaming devs are not phsychiatrists or phsychologists.
While that's a very popular rebuttal every time this subject comes up just about anywhere, I'm not entirely in agreement with that either.
Folks shouldn't act like it's normal to repeatedly spout insults, when they're very obviously not meant to be interpreted in an endearing or jesting manner (as sometimes happens among friends). If someone steps out of line multiple times and gets reported for it on several separate occasions, it's a good time for a GM to have a chat with that person.
have you ever been a fight before? or had an argument? If you cant handle someone being aggressive toward you, you DO need help, you just want someone else to help you instand of you helping yourself, this is figurative btw, not directing it at you as an individual, most people dont go out of their way to attack people, especially for no reason, and when there is reason, its not like that person on a videogame of all things is going to go out of their way everyday to make you misreable, it will more than likely last for 5 minutes and everyone will move on. Its a fact of life a few softies are trying to eliminate, its never going to happen, its what makes us strive to be better as a species, and sorry man but it works, has since the beginning of us, and hopefully that motivation keeps us going for as long as the earth can keep us alive.
Tanix said:stellarmind said:allow individuals to work it out via pvp. honestly it's burdening for devs to focus on policing players behavior. i'd rather them work on the game. why not let players police other players? although i highly doubt this will happen. pvp is a rather touchy subject in the pantheon forums.
I prefer to simply ignore them or black list them if they are persistent in their idoicy. I remember one guy was a complete moron when I played EQ. THe guy didn't know me and didn't realize I would often pull for many of the guilds on the server when their monks were offline or unable. So, he acted like a moron, was very insulting, going far beyond being just an arse. So... I black listed him with my guild and all the guilds I pulled for. Since I was also a well know group former for my server (I would throw together groups all the time), word got around and he didn't find very many groups to join. Eventually he say and whined about it in the zone chat and then moved to a different server.
our characters will be server locked, however, they have said something about shards (i'm assuming this is servers?) blocking and muting only does so much. what if he/she decides to follow you and disrupt your activities?
zendrel said: Pvp is not the answer at all. That will make it WAY worse. So we almost got this thing down... And some guy killed our healer... So with an mmo it is a lot simpler than it is for sandbox games. 1. Fast respawns in dungeons. Griefers tend to be solo. Make it difficult for them to catch up to your group. 2. The shut door. They have said this one but it needs a better mechanic where the boss recognizes who is not in the group and kills that guy instantly that way you can't Zerg and you can't have griefers. For open world bosses you could get more creative. The dragon flys a circle around the raid breathing fire onto the ground making a circle of fire. He then locks the raid members down and beats his wings blasting all non raid members out of the circle. Fight begins. 3. Sadly you can't allow people to change the world around them. No non instanced housing. No placing structures in the open game. No player collision 4. Although I think vr is against it you need a roll button for loot. I know they think community will stop ninja looting but it won't. We are in a era of griefers and there is no going back.
like i said pvp is touchy. if a griefer wants to grief you aren't going to stop him. humans beings are very crafty in the way they torture people. when i was a kid, if you couldn't get through with words, you'd get through with your fists and be friends no matter who won or lost. i guess that's a little too savage nowadays.
Tanix said:stellarmind said:allow individuals to work it out via pvp. honestly it's burdening for devs to focus on policing players behavior. i'd rather them work on the game. why not let players police other players? although i highly doubt this will happen. pvp is a rather touchy subject in the pantheon forums.
I prefer to simply ignore them or black list them if they are persistent in their idoicy. I remember one guy was a complete moron when I played EQ. THe guy didn't know me and didn't realize I would often pull for many of the guilds on the server when their monks were offline or unable. So, he acted like a moron, was very insulting, going far beyond being just an arse. So... I black listed him with my guild and all the guilds I pulled for. Since I was also a well know group former for my server (I would throw together groups all the time), word got around and he didn't find very many groups to join. Eventually he say and whined about it in the zone chat and then moved to a different server.
Not everyone is in a position to influence whole guilds to blacklist someone for things being said in chat. Spreading word of their misbehavior when it's about physical actions taken is easier, I think. Because many people don't take accusations about douchebags in chat seriously (exactly because they are of the opinion that folks should grow a backbone instead). I do agree that /ignore is usually a good solution for the person who's affected, but that alone won't encourage the offender to stop their misconduct, negatively affecting other people's enjoyment of the game along the way.
stellarmind said:Tanix said:stellarmind said:allow individuals to work it out via pvp. honestly it's burdening for devs to focus on policing players behavior. i'd rather them work on the game. why not let players police other players? although i highly doubt this will happen. pvp is a rather touchy subject in the pantheon forums.
I prefer to simply ignore them or black list them if they are persistent in their idoicy. I remember one guy was a complete moron when I played EQ. THe guy didn't know me and didn't realize I would often pull for many of the guilds on the server when their monks were offline or unable. So, he acted like a moron, was very insulting, going far beyond being just an arse. So... I black listed him with my guild and all the guilds I pulled for. Since I was also a well know group former for my server (I would throw together groups all the time), word got around and he didn't find very many groups to join. Eventually he say and whined about it in the zone chat and then moved to a different server.
our characters will be server locked, however, they have said something about shards (i'm assuming this is servers?) blocking and muting only does so much. what if he/she decides to follow you and disrupt your activities?
There are certain levels, if someone is persitent to any given level across time, that is a GM ban issue. I can always record their activity and mail it to a GM to have them banned.
Kaeldorn said:Tanix said:stellarmind said:allow individuals to work it out via pvp. honestly it's burdening for devs to focus on policing players behavior. i'd rather them work on the game. why not let players police other players? although i highly doubt this will happen. pvp is a rather touchy subject in the pantheon forums.
I prefer to simply ignore them or black list them if they are persistent in their idoicy. I remember one guy was a complete moron when I played EQ. THe guy didn't know me and didn't realize I would often pull for many of the guilds on the server when their monks were offline or unable. So, he acted like a moron, was very insulting, going far beyond being just an arse. So... I black listed him with my guild and all the guilds I pulled for. Since I was also a well know group former for my server (I would throw together groups all the time), word got around and he didn't find very many groups to join. Eventually he say and whined about it in the zone chat and then moved to a different server.
Not everyone is in a position to influence whole guilds to blacklist someone for things being said in chat. Spreading word of their misbehavior when it's about physical actions taken is easier, I think. Because many people don't take accusations about douchebags in chat seriously (exactly because they are of the opinion that folks should grow a backbone instead). I do agree that /ignore is usually a good solution for the person who's affected, but that alone won't encourage the offender to stop their misconduct, negatively affecting other people's enjoyment of the game along the way.
That is why in EQ, we had server forums and a black list thread. People posted their issues and it went from there.
Tanix said:That is why in EQ, we had server forums and a black list thread. People posted their issues and it went from there.
That is a really interesting idea although it would probably be a heavily moderated area of the forums because I can see some heavy lifting words to be said in there.
stellarmind said:i'd rather hunt the scum down myself and grief the griefer.
And thus toxicity was born. DAoC & WoW both fed this kind of mentality where you would get a friend of log over to your main to "grief the griefer". We wont see PvP in Pantheon most likely but to transfer it over into a PvE enironment is definitely what we want to avoid.