Forums » The Cleric

Dont screw Clerics like in EQ1

    • 59 posts
    January 28, 2019 2:55 AM PST

    Clerics in Everquest 1 were strongly group dependent. Soloing was not possible at all. Even when fighting the few undead creatures it took forever to kill and you were basically out of mana afterwards. I hope the Devs in Pantheon make it possible for Clerics to also have some melee Abilities that provide a good chance at also fulfilling solo tasks or contribute at least a bit in fights and dont let me sit on my ass all the time and med.  Yaulp was a great Ability in Everquest that lets you get selfhaste and mana regen so you can at least auto attack while regaining mana.

    Keep in mind the Cleric in DnD was originally a counterattack class against Vampires. Some Fighter with healing abilities proficient with only blunt weapons.

    • 150 posts
    January 29, 2019 2:32 AM PST

    i hear your cry and i agree in regards to the EQ1 cleric. They were masters in keeping a group alive, but without a group they were not much more than res machines. If there is going to be solo content, there should be some they can effectively do too to kill downtimes when not in a group. Maybe even give them some sort of bonus to gathering or the likes.

    • 99 posts
    January 29, 2019 5:15 AM PST

    I'm confident Clerics will be amazing mainly because Joppa played one as his main in EQ1. He knows and understands the woes as well as what made the Cleric so loveable. 

    • 2342 posts
    January 29, 2019 7:10 AM PST

    Don't screw clerics? Oh you are so wrong - what is safer than to screw a class with cure disease?

    I strongly agree with the basic point here, quips aside. The Midgard healing class in Dark Ages of Camelot was much as you are describing - 50-50 whether it could slowly kill a gray (quite a few levels lower) enemy.

    Even if one mostly groups there are times when one wants to just go out and explore or adventure and it is hard to explore if you have to run from even the weakest enemy if it notices you. Some classes will manifestly be better than others but no class should be worse than mediocre on its own.

    I am referring to landscape not saying that any class should be able to do anything solo in a group dungeon.

    • 90 posts
    January 30, 2019 10:47 AM PST
    I played a Cleric (Inquisitor) in EQ2 and they made it a much more dynamic and participatory in the combat. I rarely if ever sat down during combat as I was constantly healing and debuffing. Inqs were fantastic at debuffs and it also helped mitigate some of the heavy handed healing of the EQ1 cleric.

    I think the class had two DoTs and 2 nukes, so it was possible to solo, although it was much slower than most classes.

    I think the EQ2 cleric was one of the best implementations of the class.
    • 7 posts
    March 7, 2019 9:12 PM PST

    Ghool said: I played a Cleric (Inquisitor) in EQ2 and they made it a much more dynamic and participatory in the combat. I rarely if ever sat down during combat as I was constantly healing and debuffing. Inqs were fantastic at debuffs and it also helped mitigate some of the heavy handed healing of the EQ1 cleric. I think the class had two DoTs and 2 nukes, so it was possible to solo, although it was much slower than most classes. I think the EQ2 cleric was one of the best implementations of the class.

     

    I definately second this.  Having played a cleric main in a number of games, EQ2 was definately my favorite (and most playable) implimentation of the class.

    • 59 posts
    April 1, 2019 11:37 PM PDT

    Just came over this Topic in EQ2 Forums when the new Progression server launched :

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/suggestion-could-be-bump-priest-dps-a-bit.589203/

     

    Should really go with all 3 Healing Classes in Pantheon.

     

    • 1587 posts
    April 2, 2019 4:51 AM PDT

    Eq2 was designed to have a lot of solo content while Pantheon isn't. The eq1 clerics problem was only that he was the only worthwhile healer  even around mid level, but certainly not that he was bad at soloing.

     

    As long as you compare the best soloing class to the worst , you'll allways end up with a very wide gradient. Pet classes have allways had an easier time, even in non solo games, but Dps are far less desired than any healer.

    • 622 posts
    April 6, 2019 8:53 AM PDT

    Ghool said: I played a Cleric (Inquisitor) in EQ2 and they made it a much more dynamic and participatory in the combat. I rarely if ever sat down during combat as I was constantly healing and debuffing. Inqs were fantastic at debuffs and it also helped mitigate some of the heavy handed healing of the EQ1 cleric. I think the class had two DoTs and 2 nukes, so it was possible to solo, although it was much slower than most classes. I think the EQ2 cleric was one of the best implementations of the class.

    I too played an inquisitor in EQ2 and it was amazeballs!  The class was OP on a pvp server with its reactive buffs to counter melee and curses that knock down enemies after they cast a spell to counter casters and hybrids... I remember killing a brigand with basically just two reactive buffs and two reactive debuffs (because that was all I could do because I was stun-locked most of the battle) - the two buffs healed me every time I was hit and the debuffs damaged the attacker every time they attacked - I never even turned around and just let him backstab himself nearly to death before he even knew what was happening... He was probably confused and too focused on how my health was fluctuating so dramatically even though I wasn't moving that he didn't pay attention to his own health.  

    I unfortunately do not think that the PRotF cleric will be like the EQ2 clerics, but if it is even anything remotely similar I will be playing it.  I didn't like the EQ1 cleric AT ALL.  I always felt that 90% of the people playing clerics were just lazy - but that was likely me just being jealous because I felt like I was doing all of the work on my SHD or BRD pulling, Tanking, twisting songs etc and never getting to rest for a second.   Most of the time if I was in a group a cleric didn't really need to heal unless things got crazy - so even though we all knew the cleric's mana was full, they would 90% of the time just sit there.  edit:  90% is an arbitrary number.


    This post was edited by Darch at April 6, 2019 8:59 AM PDT
    • 99 posts
    April 9, 2019 12:40 PM PDT

    Clerics "just sat there" because the closer you were to 100% mana, the better chances of you keeping your group alive if things went bad. Also, buffing was a huge mana sink and once you rebuffed, you'd be sitting at half mana or less (Cleric buffs only lasted like 20 mins, or whatever it was). Clerics also knew that if they did not manage their mana well and the party wiped, you may be looking at an hour corpse run. The risk factor was huge. 

    • 3 posts
    April 10, 2019 5:19 PM PDT

    All classes will be group dependent. They are not creating a solo content game. All classes will be important to the group. I don't mind the clerics healing role. You will always find a group.

    • 749 posts
    April 11, 2019 8:34 AM PDT

    Just to add about the EQ1 cleric....you could solo to max in classic as a cleric by going to befallen, then to unrest, and then to lguk undead side. All were viable and soloable with a cleric. It wasn't efficient..but you could still solo if you wanted to. 

    • 264 posts
    April 12, 2019 7:42 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    The eq1 clerics problem was only that he was the only worthwhile healer  even around mid level, but certainly not that he was bad at soloing.

     

    Haha, please allow me to disagree with you, as a main Defiler! Who needs heals when you have wards? :) I am joking, but seriously Clerics were awesome in EQ2 (both Inquisitors and Templar)

    My Defiler shined in both groups and raids when teamed up with druids and clerics. However, it was awful solo, way worst than Inquisitor by far. I suffered from that and I hope all classes in Pantheon will not have the same problem. I hope Joppa make solo difficult for some classes, but not as bad as Cleric in Eq1 and Shaman in EQ2. 

    • 3 posts
    June 2, 2019 7:50 PM PDT

    As someon who played a cleric in EQ1 as a main for 7 years. Please keep the cleric group dependant, as most of the class's. The whole point here IS TO GROUP.

     

    While i understand that this is not for everyone, i had the time of my life.

    • 150 posts
    June 3, 2019 12:23 AM PDT

    I beg to differ Yilelien. The primary focus should be grouping for any character. But i would also like to be able to defend myself when i'm out harvesting rocks or twigs for my tradeskills. If i do this in 'on par' zones, as an EQ1 cleric, more often than not you would end up running. If only for it being easier.

    Maybe Pantheon could make it so that the cleric damage abilities are strenghtened when not grouped. Who knows!

    • 66 posts
    June 3, 2019 12:58 PM PDT

    While I agree that the game is and should be very group focused as a cleric main back in EQ1 who didn't solo at all, it was indeed frustrating trying to do one off cleric based quests or even pieces of your epic because it's sometimes difficult to get people interested in going to do non-exp stuff that really doesn't require a full group, but is only soloable by people that can actually solo.  I was fortunate and had a few good friends that would come help, but even key pieces for things like VT, etc. were annoying.  Especially as the game's age wears on, people's interest in going back to help with epic's and zone keying, etc. is pretty low.

    I'm not looking for a cleric that can solo like a druid, but maybe some summonable hammers that don't die in one hit?  Or some damage shields that burn a ton of mana so you can't really use them effectively while grouping?  I'm sure there is a way that I can't think of off the top of my head to give the cleric a little more solo power without unbalancing them.

    • 150 posts
    June 4, 2019 12:55 AM PDT

    i hear you Mornroc, it's one of the primary reasons in EQ1 that i opened up multiple accounts. Warrior and Cleric combo could get things done in eq1, it took a while but still it was doable, and a bard on auto attack with 1 song running would still do alot more damage than having no one. It saved me a lot of hassle trying to motivate people to help me without burning a hole in my wallet. Mercenary's that eventually came made this easier, but honestly as soon as those enter the game, i will quit Pantheon. As it basically means there is no more population.

    • 8 posts
    August 17, 2019 11:26 AM PDT

    Nolaen said:

    Clerics in Everquest 1 were strongly group dependent. Soloing was not possible at all. Even when fighting the few undead creatures it took forever to kill and you were basically out of mana afterwards. I hope the Devs in Pantheon make it possible for Clerics to also have some melee Abilities that provide a good chance at also fulfilling solo tasks or contribute at least a bit in fights and dont let me sit on my ass all the time and med.  Yaulp was a great Ability in Everquest that lets you get selfhaste and mana regen so you can at least auto attack while regaining mana.

     

    Soloing was possible (just not easy and required specific locations and targets.)  I don't buy the we need to solo thing either, like some of the other posters here, I actually hope almost every class is very group dependent.  I am not interested in playing another game that everyone basically soloes to max level and then tries to get together to raid/do dungeons.  I want another game where getting past level 10 pretty much is stupid slow for anyone not in a group (not necessarily a full group required, but grouping required please.)

    • 98 posts
    September 9, 2019 6:12 AM PDT

    well we are a healing class and no group will take you in for your dps (not even against undead) we hit like plankton in terms off hiting power =)

    clerics power in what we have seen are in the many healing powers and to some degree buffs.So my guess is that most clerics are going to have like a minimum of 7-8 healing powers all from minor cheap mana

    to heavy heals but dirt expensive, and o crap instant heals,toss in a few buffs and perhaps a signet and thats a cleric baked and ready.Clerics main problem will be (attleast in the begining mana managment)

    Perhaps we will get some other utilitys in the future or buffs who knows ?

    So in my humble opinion i would skip dps/debuff thats for shaman and druid but give me a versitile and multitude of different heals =)

    • 99 posts
    September 10, 2019 7:35 AM PDT

    Aqua said:So in my humble opinion i would skip dps/debuff thats for shaman and druid but give me a versitile and multitude of different heals =)

     

    IMO this is a problem since they have repeatedly stated they expect all classes that can perform a role to be equally proficient at that role.  Thus why would anyone bring a cleric as a healer when they can bring a druid or shaman and get the same healing plus the dps/debuffs.

     

    A variety of heals is useless when the content can be done by classes without that variety of heals...

    • 2388 posts
    September 10, 2019 11:20 AM PDT

    Zyellinia said:

    IMO this is a problem since they have repeatedly stated they expect all classes that can perform a role to be equally proficient at that role.  Thus why would anyone bring a cleric as a healer when they can bring a druid or shaman and get the same healing plus the dps/debuffs.

     

    A variety of heals is useless when the content can be done by classes without that variety of heals...

    Well it's a good thing they already have plenty of unique buffs/reasons to bring a cleric over other healers. 

    • 98 posts
    September 10, 2019 11:28 AM PDT

    Zyellinia said:

    Aqua said:So in my humble opinion i would skip dps/debuff thats for shaman and druid but give me a versitile and multitude of different heals =)

     

    IMO this is a problem since they have repeatedly stated they expect all classes that can perform a role to be equally proficient at that role.  Thus why would anyone bring a cleric as a healer when they can bring a druid or shaman and get the same healing plus the dps/debuffs.

     

    A variety of heals is useless when the content can be done by classes without that variety of heals...

     

    Yes i hear you and yes it is tru that the cleric is somewhat gimped in most other things beside healing (and in that case equall of the other healers and probobly the same in rez capabilitys)

    and yes we dont have snare/dps/slow/haste/mana regen/sow/teleport/pets/no adm saying a word seen 2016....oh crap matbe another class is better after all =O 

    well that out of the way yes the cleric NEEDS some love or he just wont fit in the grp-dynamic because he simply cant solo...attleast not very effectivly

    Hard to say what that could be havent seen a single suggestion mostly it have been we need to heal/rez in equall term of the cleric so i understand what you are saying Zyellinia Sadly i do...

    • 2388 posts
    September 10, 2019 1:50 PM PDT

    Aqua said:

    well that out of the way yes the cleric NEEDS some love or he just wont fit in the grp-dynamic because he simply cant solo...attleast not very effectivly

    How about the safest/easiest healing, the strongest HP and AC buffs, the strongest mitigation buffs, uninterruptable healing even through stuns, combat resurrection, a buff that increases group unique resource generation, and a hate reduction buff? And that's just what we know so far.

     

    Just because all healers are said to be equally capable in the role/healing output doesn't mean its equally easy for each to do so. 

    • 98 posts
    September 11, 2019 6:43 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Aqua said:

    well that out of the way yes the cleric NEEDS some love or he just wont fit in the grp-dynamic because he simply cant solo...attleast not very effectivly

    How about the safest/easiest healing, the strongest HP and AC buffs, the strongest mitigation buffs,uninterruptable healing even through stuns, combat resurrection, a buff that increases group unique resource generation, and a hate reduction buff? And that's just what we know so far.

     

    Just because all healers are said to be equally capable in the role/healing output doesn't mean its equally easy for each to do so. 

     

    Not sure where it say we have the safest/easiest healing ? cant a shaman just cast slow and he have a very relaxing time ? and just to point out ALL of the healers have ac buffs.so how do you know who is the master on them (in everquest sure but this is a new mmo) yes we have probobly very nice mitigation buffs (attleast we agree on that) 

    uninterruptable healing through stuns yeah it is nice but perhaps you should check the pre requisit for it MUST HAVE FULL CALESTIAL POWER FOR IT and guessing the many powers that will require calestial points how often do you think we will be loadaded with that ??=??

    Hate reduction yes thats cool but the first a dps class will learn is aggro managment this or you die trust me on that point so not sure i will use that spell to many times.

    many are very interesting in special resourse generation who knows perhaps very potent or not ?? we still dont know the speed it will generate(without buff) or with buff and then we have other factors that how long will it last how mutch mana will it drain so it might be a joker in practise how knows.

     

    • 2388 posts
    September 11, 2019 1:57 PM PDT

    Aqua said:

    Not sure where it say we have the safest/easiest healing ? cant a shaman just cast slow and he have a very relaxing time ? and just to point out ALL of the healers have ac buffs.so how do you know who is the master on them (in everquest sure but this is a new mmo) yes we have probobly very nice mitigation buffs (attleast we agree on that) 

    uninterruptable healing through stuns yeah it is nice but perhaps you should check the pre requisit for it MUST HAVE FULL CALESTIAL POWER FOR IT and guessing the many powers that will require calestial points how often do you think we will be loadaded with that ??=??

    Hate reduction yes thats cool but the first a dps class will learn is aggro managment this or you die trust me on that point so not sure i will use that spell to many times.

    many are very interesting in special resourse generation who knows perhaps very potent or not ?? we still dont know the speed it will generate(without buff) or with buff and then we have other factors that how long will it last how mutch mana will it drain so it might be a joker in practise how knows.

    No, he has to use his debuffs/slow just to keep up with healing in any efficient way and spike/burst damage is much harder for him to deal with having limited and weaker direct healing. 

     

    AC buff kings is based only on wording: "Dramatically increases the Maximum Health and Armor Class of an ally" and I imagine can be stacked with "Ethereal Armor: You manifest celestial armor around an ally. This gift increases their Armor Class and can cause physical attacks against them to become Glancing Hits, dramatically reducing the incoming damage" which stacks even more AC. 

     

    It doesn't say full celestial bond, it says "Passive Ability. While you maintain a Celestial Bond..." which paired with "While this Celestial Bond is active, the Celestial Power cost of abilities is reduced by X%" leads me to believe maintaining a bond wont be terribly rare or difficult and will likely only drop in dire situations when the cleric has to blow tons of cooldowns. 

     

    Hate reduction is far better than that, allowing a DPS to go that much harder means total group efficiency is that much better. Unless it's a trivial amount of hate reduction it can lead to notable increases in group kill speed and thus mana efficiency. 

     

    Yes we don't know how much but we do know it's the only spell/buff that does such a thing, even if only a minor bit per person it would add up in a full group.