Forums » The Enchanter

Charmed Mobs

    • 766 posts
    March 24, 2019 2:41 AM PDT

    I really enjoyed the enchanter, and mage in EQ... i would copy and paste them here with the point of being not so resistant. I dont always want a tank and spank game, sit there waiting until the mob dies for you to be able to cast a spell.

     

    Percentage reductions of damage would be better then watching my mage or enchanter popup with Sorry effects dont apply.... 0 damage. Ok ill sit and mez them, ok ill sit and root them, ok ill just give them crack...

     

    It was boring at times.

    • 795 posts
    March 26, 2019 2:44 PM PDT

    Atarius said:

    The arguments are fascinating to me. When Enchanters were so heavily bound to magic resistance and being so useless in many important fights. Only compounded by the lack of need for CC as EQ went on.

    That we want to immediately ensure no "advantage" for high risk enchanter charm soloing or duoing.

    It's true charmed pets were very powerful and coupled with a dedicated healer like a Cleric or imo better yet a Shaman. You could really rip things up. however there are tons of great duos that people did instead of groups in a pinch. There were classes that could lock down higher level camps solo with little actual risk of dieing. They didn't output the dps that a charmed pet could but they also had virtually no risk. 

    This mindset is what worries me about Enchanters and how they'll turn out. CC is incredibly powerful when done well and can be a catchall to game design. Here's 50 mobs in X dungeon, you have to have CC to get through. Here's a raid with 100 mobs you need CC to get through etc... The only way to break up the repetition is to move away from CC. To have off tanks, to use AOE, kiting etc... Dedicated CC then starts to take a backseat to everything else. Things that are more convienent, less tempermental and require less skill or focus.

    One alternative to not being needed in groups as much was solo charming. When AA perma charming was found to be severely lacking because of the low level of the charmable mob and lack of availability, mixed with the need to babysit and risk the group / raid to bad pathing and trains. People dropped it. 

    Regular Charm soloing still required you to break camps to pull solo or slowly pick off mobs as you went. Dealing with mana consumption, early breaks, lack of defense when things went wrong, lack of healing or hap regen / buffing and respawn.

    What worries me on top of all this, is that part of the reason EQ was so great, was the sense that at its' core, it gave you a toolkit with which to play with. Feign Death is a great example. It wasn't used as it was oringally intended but had class defining results. It was later nerfed and I perosnally know of one Monk that quit EQ over it. That and the lack of buffing Monk DPS while giving Warriors and Rogues a bump at one point. But I digress.

    If everything is going to be perfectly balanced, it's at risk of being perfectly banal. 1 + 1 = 2 and if there's nothing you can do to change the equation, then it only works as far as balance. Which makes things predictable and not prone to experimentation and at its' core, lacking in fun. 

     

    There was no risk in a raid setting for enchanter pets really... On a side note they made most mobs immune because of the OPness of the enchanter charm. They only did it that way in the beginning to make it more suitable for soloing outside of raids. Since the pet did way more dmg than any melee dps could hope for.  Even then they still nerfed the charmed pet dmg output. Enchanters have their own epic core..called CCing in general. It is pretty OP...and Clarity...also OP. They shouldn't also be the best dpser and tanker with their pet.


    This post was edited by Watemper at March 26, 2019 2:45 PM PDT
    • 13 posts
    June 2, 2019 4:41 PM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Atarius said:

    The arguments are fascinating to me. When Enchanters were so heavily bound to magic resistance and being so useless in many important fights. Only compounded by the lack of need for CC as EQ went on.

    That we want to immediately ensure no "advantage" for high risk enchanter charm soloing or duoing.

    It's true charmed pets were very powerful and coupled with a dedicated healer like a Cleric or imo better yet a Shaman. You could really rip things up. however there are tons of great duos that people did instead of groups in a pinch. There were classes that could lock down higher level camps solo with little actual risk of dieing. They didn't output the dps that a charmed pet could but they also had virtually no risk. 

    This mindset is what worries me about Enchanters and how they'll turn out. CC is incredibly powerful when done well and can be a catchall to game design. Here's 50 mobs in X dungeon, you have to have CC to get through. Here's a raid with 100 mobs you need CC to get through etc... The only way to break up the repetition is to move away from CC. To have off tanks, to use AOE, kiting etc... Dedicated CC then starts to take a backseat to everything else. Things that are more convienent, less tempermental and require less skill or focus.

    One alternative to not being needed in groups as much was solo charming. When AA perma charming was found to be severely lacking because of the low level of the charmable mob and lack of availability, mixed with the need to babysit and risk the group / raid to bad pathing and trains. People dropped it. 

    Regular Charm soloing still required you to break camps to pull solo or slowly pick off mobs as you went. Dealing with mana consumption, early breaks, lack of defense when things went wrong, lack of healing or hap regen / buffing and respawn.

    What worries me on top of all this, is that part of the reason EQ was so great, was the sense that at its' core, it gave you a toolkit with which to play with. Feign Death is a great example. It wasn't used as it was oringally intended but had class defining results. It was later nerfed and I perosnally know of one Monk that quit EQ over it. That and the lack of buffing Monk DPS while giving Warriors and Rogues a bump at one point. But I digress.

    If everything is going to be perfectly balanced, it's at risk of being perfectly banal. 1 + 1 = 2 and if there's nothing you can do to change the equation, then it only works as far as balance. Which makes things predictable and not prone to experimentation and at its' core, lacking in fun. 

     

    There was no risk in a raid setting for enchanter pets really... On a side note they made most mobs immune because of the OPness of the enchanter charm. They only did it that way in the beginning to make it more suitable for soloing outside of raids. Since the pet did way more dmg than any melee dps could hope for.  Even then they still nerfed the charmed pet dmg output. Enchanters have their own epic core..called CCing in general. It is pretty OP...and Clarity...also OP. They shouldn't also be the best dpser and tanker with their pet.

     

    The risk in pet charming during a raid was maintaining the pet without trains. If you were in a static spot say in Kael and setup to get Vindicator etc... Yeah grab a giant and pull him along. But to clear to there? Nope. The guilds I raided with didnt allow it because of trains to the raiding party that slowed things down and made a longer night for everyone. 

    Most raids done well didn't need any CC from an enchanter. So all those skills for top end raiding were largely uncessary and not used.

    Clarity is support. It's great support but still just that. While you're sitting back not CC'ing on a raid, not charming you can at least be buffing a handful of spells.

    I'm not arguing for Chanters to have OP abilities across the board, but something that's more active at higher levels, and perhaps similar to how they are mid level. The problem I think is that at raid level, everything tends to devolve into min/maxing. Why try Enchanter slow spells when Shaman is superior? A raid without a shaman is in bad shape to begin with, you better utilize their slow and malo and buffs and dots and nukes etc...

    Haste was the yin to that yang, but it's more supportive than slow. Slow can be the difference in keeping your tank alive long enough for healing or not and whether or not you wipe on a boss. Haste on everyone? You can probably still pull it out, it'll take you longer and less margin for error and less tolerance for smaller mana pools but it shouldn't be the one thing allowing you to win. Even said if you don't have an ENC bard haste and shaman haste could be a stop gap. 

    It's a reduced role for Enchanter all around and I'd like to see that change. Something more active doesn't have to be OP.

    • 277 posts
    June 2, 2019 11:13 PM PDT

    Atarius said:

    The risk in pet charming during a raid was maintaining the pet without trains. If you were in a static spot say in Kael and setup to get Vindicator etc... Yeah grab a giant and pull him along. But to clear to there? Nope. The guilds I raided with didnt allow it because of trains to the raiding party that slowed things down and made a longer night for everyone. 

    Most raids done well didn't need any CC from an enchanter. So all those skills for top end raiding were largely uncessary and not used.

    Clarity is support. It's great support but still just that. While you're sitting back not CC'ing on a raid, not charming you can at least be buffing a handful of spells.

    I'm not arguing for Chanters to have OP abilities across the board, but something that's more active at higher levels, and perhaps similar to how they are mid level. The problem I think is that at raid level, everything tends to devolve into min/maxing. Why try Enchanter slow spells when Shaman is superior? A raid without a shaman is in bad shape to begin with, you better utilize their slow and malo and buffs and dots and nukes etc...

    Haste was the yin to that yang, but it's more supportive than slow. Slow can be the difference in keeping your tank alive long enough for healing or not and whether or not you wipe on a boss. Haste on everyone? You can probably still pull it out, it'll take you longer and less margin for error and less tolerance for smaller mana pools but it shouldn't be the one thing allowing you to win. Even said if you don't have an ENC bard haste and shaman haste could be a stop gap. 

    It's a reduced role for Enchanter all around and I'd like to see that change. Something more active doesn't have to be OP.

     

    Yeah most Raids I was told not to Charm. If a charmed mob broke free at the wrong time it could cause deaths and potentially slow us down. I needed healers to watch me when normally watching an Enchanter in a raid is the last thing they need to worry about. I'd keep my buffs refreshed and then I would land Tash at the start of the fight. Once that was done you'd basically just hang out in case Tash wore off mid fight. If we had 3 Enchanters show up, super rare, they'd let me pull with Tash just for fun. Your nukes were almost all resisted so it was a waste of mana to even cast them. Raiding as an Enchanter in EQ was a spectator sport half the time... breaking Plane of Fear was fun though.