Forums » The Enchanter

Charmed Mobs

    • 156 posts
    August 30, 2018 9:24 AM PDT

    I hope they follow a simple formula for charmed mobs. Like x ( reasonably low number so as not to be overshadow PC dps in conjunction with other enchanter damage) dps per level of the mob. Don't let the charmed mobs keep special abilities and other things. Simply make it be an extra dps source for the enchanter while it is charmed. this way charm can still be a cc, but it is a cc that can do damage to other targets in fights while at the same time not completely overshadowing dps classes with dps. 

    • 367 posts
    September 1, 2018 6:57 AM PDT

    The issue commonly brought up is that DPS tend to compare Enchanters to their own ability to perform damage. Enchanters have Charm yes, but a lot of the dps comes in the form of Melee Hastes, Spell Hastes, Mana Regen, Mana Replenishment (Ench Nuke), DOTs as well as Nukes. They being a force multiplier are going to be stronger when there's more people in a group. Thus, if it's a full group it won't be surprising if they overshadow the damage of a single DPS class. It's when they are solo or in a small group taking on content that won't require their CC function is when they fade.

    They can also slow a mobs attack speed, cast speed, reduce total damage that mob can do directly (which stacks with slow), decrease their melee stats, silence them, PBAE stun and mez them. These things to include charm reduce the damage being done to the target which falls into the Healer domain now. Enchanters have their hands in everything in the group which is why they tend to be the central figure. Bards when they are released will very likely fit the same role as they are listed as the Support/Control Archetype.

    Here's the issue with Enchanter's though and Bards for instance. DPS classes can stack, meaning if one DPS is in the group, you are at 100% dps not counting the damage done by the tank, healer or control/support. If you add another DPS you're now at 200%. If you did that with an Enchanter, it would be 100% of dps for a single Enchanter, then if you add a second Enchanter, that Enchanter now adds 40% more dps. 200% is more than 140%. Even if you consider that a single Enchanter provides more dps than a single DPS class when deciding on who to add in the 6th slot, you won't pick a second Enchanter over a second DPS, you just won't. 

    As for Charm, I made myself very vocal to the developers and the community how I would like to see Charm. While Shock & Awe can remain as is, Charm itself should have a reduced power curve, say 70-80% depending on balance. Then if that charm becomes permanent, it's further reduced to 50-60%. Shock & Awe is basically a short term charm that turns the mob against its allies but isn't directly controlled and I feel can remain at 100%.


    This post was edited by Janus at September 1, 2018 7:02 AM PDT
    • 504 posts
    September 27, 2018 4:48 AM PDT

    Charem soloing.  I loved it.  I never had a perma-charmed pet before and I am not sure I would want it.  A real charm solo'er would charm a mob, have it beat on another mob, throw a few nukes into the kill, and then charm a different mob - setting it on the first charmed mob which is now at half health.  You keep repeating this process.  Charm a new mob every kill.  Didn't bother buffing etc.  Just let the mobs do what they do - kill each other and carefully manipulate who you have control of.

    Some folks call that OP.  I just told you how I did it and how rewarding it was.  I had NO issues in PoP.  But there is a downside that most folks never talk about.  It takes you longer to do this solo.  You do NOT get as much XP/loot as anyone in a group.  It takes a lot more time.  Mobs did in fact break their charm.  Now you have two mobs on you.  But as an enchanter you pop AE stun, mezz, mezz, charm the healthiest one, break mezz, target the other and get back to it.  And if there is a resist in there anywhere you are dead.  As an Enchanter/Illy in EQ and EQ2 I was always near teh top for a number of things.  Kills, money, loot, etc.  But I was always near, or even at the top, for another thing.  Deaths.  No one died as much as me.  With great risk comes great reward.  I seriously doubt that there was anyone that was de-leveled more than me.

    Enchanters are NOT DPS mages.  They never have been.  In fact, they have always been the low man in the mage's class.  Even in times when the mage catagory were considered the top tier for DPS, an ENC would still be out-DPSd by scouts.  We bring buffs to the game.  This increases the overall value of every group-mate.  Of course when folks start parsing out the DPS they boast of how well they did and how they are awesome without realizing that so much of their damage came from the buffs by the Ench.

    Historically, Enchs have always needed some help with their own DPS.  They are not that great (or at least not nearly as good at it as other mage class characters).  But it is designed that way for a reason.  They have a LOT more to offer a group than anyone else.  I had a LOT more groups deny pet-charming while grouping than EVER agreed to it.  Charming a pet is almost always a solo functrion.  Other players just do not seem to want to deal with it.

    Some folks will point out that this is not a solo-type game.  It is designed for grouping.  I think they used to say something like 20/60/20 solo/group/raid?  I don't recall.  But still - there is that 20%.  Enchanters dont have much by way of solo DPS and pet charming is there to help make up for it.  Let's get some testing done before we talk about the perma-charm.  We still don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

    • 2 posts
    October 4, 2018 11:13 PM PDT

    "But there has to be limits to the fun."  What the hell doe this mean BamBam?  I want to have as much fun as I can. That is what I pay for. Why are people so worried about other palyers "fun"?  As long as the class does not have abilites that can ruin another players fun I really dont care. I can always roll one of them and play it if I want to.  I agreed with the SK, cleric, and Ranger nerfs that signifactly reudece thier abilty to swarm and HS scads of mobs.  I played them all back in that day. It was troubbling that someone could pull a whole dungeon sectrion and solo it. Vacuming up mobs others may have needed for a quest or some such.  I think the devs in EQ did the right thing in nerfing it.

     

    THe comments are based on years playing an Enchanter in EQ

    You guys are talking about ruining a whole class so it cannot solo. Pets 5 - 10 levels below them! Are you kidding me? They will not be able to tank anything and just become a short term dot for root rooting or nuking. People will drop the class and go wizard or necro for that. THis idea couldn't have come someone who has played an EQ enchanter to any degree. You will ruin the class with such dumb ideas.

    Enchanters in EQ who charm have to be very skilled.  You are juggling something that wants to kill you about every 7 minutes or so. Buff the biotch adn its even more dangerous. The higher you go the more dangerous it gest as more mobs can stun and interupt and hit for a ton of damage. They are not a way to power level and are  not faster Exp then a group. THey actually are slow compared to groups or say kiters.  I do box mine with a cleric but my ranger boxed with my cleric kills far faster. Enchanters charm for the challenge and to have some way to effectively solo when undable to find a group.  Having a group centric game is great but there will be times with no group is available...what do you do then?

    A good group with a monk can break most camps in their level range pretty easily. They do not need CC.  Mana pots make up for the mana regen buff or they have a pocket enchanter they log in just for the mana regen buff. The Enchanter has less dps then the wizard and other casting classes as its strength and need from a group is its CC ability. Why take an enchater is such a group? Get another Wizard or rogue. YOu need more dps and the enchanter will not bring you that. A charmed pet adds nothing to such a group other then risk and delay as the enchanter has to wrange the damn thing every few minutes.

    Because they are weak, Enchanters suck at soloing without charm.  You cant root rot or root nuke as an an enchanter as well as the dot classes and pure nuking classes.  To solo, they need an effective charm pet. Not the weak ass pet they get in EQ for example that is rarely used after level 5.

    Use the EQ Enchanter as the model. It is not an easy class to play correctly. Its is why there are so few of them on EQ servers compared to other classes.  If you want this class to get played, it needs unique abilites and an effective way to solo to some degree.

    I dont charm in a group as it slows the group down and puts it at extra risk. A charm break during a pull could wipe the group.  It ties up some of the enchanters attention when he needs to be fighting or CC for the group.  

    I think the EQ Enchanter is very well balanced and should be used as a model.

     

    Worry about 5 enchanters and a cleric?  Better worry about 6 sumoners or kiting rangers/druids instead! Nerf them!

    Oh ya, don't mess with my fun as long as its not hurting yours!

    • 795 posts
    October 5, 2018 8:30 AM PDT

    ^ No

    If you can charm something that takes a group to kill and it retain all of its stats, that is a problem. If the enchanter pet can tank better, and do more dps than the other classes of their respective role, then it is a problem.

    Playing an enchanter isn't hard. If you have a druid there to snare your pet and root the other mobs it is practically impossible for you to die. When the hole opened up the only viable option in going down there and killing the undead and doing well is with 2 enchanters with blue golems. Those golems had an insane amount of hp and hit like a truck. Is there risk, yea. But not enough to deter the play style at all. The tanks back then, and dps, couldnt hold a candle to an enchanter pet. Later on they nerfed raid zones to where most mobs in that zone were immuned to charm, but not until luclin era.

     

    As it was said previously, Enchanters are a CC role, not a dps roll, or tanking roll, thanks to their pet. Btw we aren;t advocating for enchanters to not have charm, but the pet needs to be nerfed signifcantly. 

    • 5 posts
    October 8, 2018 12:17 PM PDT

    Let's not start by nerfing the Enchanter so soon!

    • 477 posts
    October 10, 2018 12:15 AM PDT

    Hi everyone and thanks for a great discussion! 
    Please keep it up, with your comments and ideas.

    @Temijin1 when i said "But there has to be limits to the fun." i ment that it has to be balanced so Enchanters wont be dps, tank and cc roll in one class.

    This threat is not about ruining The Enchanter or breaking your B***s. Its about balance. I asked the community for their ideas, on how to balance a difficult skill => The Charm mekanic. Because its a mekanic that can make or break the game. It can ruin The summoner class in an instant if the charmed pets are to strong, it can make dps classes feel lackluster, it can make the tanks want to go afk /dance instead of playing the actual game. 

    If one class can preform 3 roles, there must be a balance to it. A lot of people want to be "the top dog" in games and dont mind rolling away from their prefered class, to play the class that has a broken mekanic. You see it in WoW, Eq, Mobas and even in Cs even the AWP guy wating to 1 shot you. We want to do good in the games, so we use the tools there is at hand, sometimes the tools are to good. Its the devs job to balance these tools, so the playing field is somewhat even. 

    Why do i care what other ppl do? I care because it affects the game in general, the grp dynamic, the economy, the balance of content and it waves on into items, other calss skills, npc skills and boss fights.
    Why do i want to take away fun? A balanced game with no broken mekanics, is way more fun in my eyes and i hope thats the way VR are going. 

    When thats said i hope and expect VR to find this balance sweet spot. and give us a fun Enchanter class, that can shine in grps and be abel to solo and preform in smaller grps and duos, with a charmed pet or not. 

    Have a great day!
    Upwards and onwards friends!

     

    • 17 posts
    October 25, 2018 5:51 PM PDT

    I love the idea that when you have a mob charmed, you have to concentrate to hold your domination over them.  Perma charm is like breaking their minds thus releasing the need to concentrate. The negative result is slower spell casting and long cast spells being impossible, implemented during the charm phase with a reduction of strength, ac, and casting ability of the charmed mob. If it ticks to perma charm, the enchanter should regain all their abilities as they are no longer concentrating on the dominion but the mob is effectively a puppet thus slower with their attack speed, weaker with each melee ability, less likely to even attempt to avoid damage, and slower with spell casting or it's effectiveness.

    Real world example:

    Uncharmed mob: Look at someone who is motivated in their life. They are full of energy and usually have an independant mindset. While disciplined in their actions, they go about it with a passion thus giving their full potential.   

    Charmed mob: Now look at someone who's going through a rough patch in their life. They have less energy overall. Slower reaction speeds, less passion to put into their actions, and feel like they have little control over their lives so they care a lot less about what happens to them.

    Prema charmed mob: Then look at someone who is miserable and feels trapped in their life.  They are lethargic, tired, giving minimal effort, and simply don't care.

    This is a game and I'm not saying mimic depression, but the concept is the same. How they chose to reduce the mob's effectiveness is for VR Devs to decide. But there should be a negative to this positive. A perma charmed mob for an Enc should be no more effective than a summoner's pet. But if it has a chance to break, the risk is high whether solo or in a group.  They have streams where the Devs have said they are focusing on the group play and a true community for this game, but there will also be people and classes that can solo better than others. DPS in every game I've played is a dime a dozen. then you have tanks, healers, and buff bots (Enchanters). Enchanters in the streams have proven to be more useful than simply buff bots and that's a huge upgrade. They have a nuke that does comparable low end damage to melee while giving mana to the group. Not using that ability because you are doing CC hurts the healer more than anyone. So till the charm is perminate, take it away from us to balance our effectiveness in a group. The mob will still have the same HP, but the charm and perma charm comes with a debuff on the pet and limits the group's crawl / grind ability till the charm is locked in. Any AE spell should be impossible for an Enc who is concentrating on charm before it goes perminate.

    Enchanters are OP by their very nature. 1 skilled Enc can take the place of 3 tanks with the use of well placed mez and charm abilities. They are tied to the healer's mana thus giving more life to the tank indirectly. They increase the speed of abilities and in some cases the effectiveness of them thus indirectly adding dps. They slow and debuff the mob thus indirectly adding even more dps and heals by the mob taking more dmg and not hitting as hard. All of this together reduces the recovery time between fights during a grind or a raid. Saying they have their hands in everything, is an understatement. That's why they are so difficult to "balance" in a game where group roles have hard definitions. I can't wait to see how VR tackles this.

    Just an opinion of a moron...

     

    • 71 posts
    October 27, 2018 8:28 AM PDT

    I personally think that you should leave the enchanters alone just because they have great power doesn't mean that it doesn't comes with a cost..... People never show when Charming a mob goes terribly wrong in the simplest things you do can backfire and wipe a whole group.... Most of all these changes that you guys want to make to The enchanters Charmed spell sound god-awful and I suggest leaving them alone...

     

    I would also go as far as to say that most people do not understand how difficult is was to play an enchanter to its fullest potential... You can cry for nerfs all you like... I can't stop you... I could always tell between a player that learned his class and a player that was helped and power leveled to a high level.... 

     

    Just a thought... how about we see the class first before we cry for nerfs and how it should be... meaning lets see Vr's take on it first


    This post was edited by Nytman at October 27, 2018 8:43 AM PDT
    • 156 posts
    November 1, 2018 10:52 AM PDT

    We have seen their take on them so far and enchanters are very powerful. There's nothing wrong about people being concerned aout classes being too powerful or too weak. 

    • 477 posts
    November 2, 2018 5:11 AM PDT
    @Nytman i just want a balance to it, I my self are going to play an enchanter. And want the option to play around with the charm makanic too. But with some limits, Pantheon is a social game if one enchanter with he's healer mate can plow through any content with a perma charmed pet. I would say there are a problem.

    Let's see how VR ends up doing it, hopefully we all are pleased.
    • 71 posts
    November 2, 2018 5:46 PM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    We have seen their take on them so far and enchanters are very powerful. There's nothing wrong about people being concerned aout classes being too powerful or too weak. 

     

    Oh so in the streams you think they come off as being to powerful? Tell me how you come to this conclusion? Have you seen them use charm? I sure have not so tell me how you arrived at this.......

     

    Do they do more damage than a wizard? can they be a tank better than the tanks? How are they so powerful? what because they have control spells like a cc class should? because they give mana to there team?Tell me how you know this?


    This post was edited by Nytman at November 2, 2018 5:58 PM PDT
    • 71 posts
    November 2, 2018 5:53 PM PDT

    BamBam said: @Nytman i just want a balance to it, I my self are going to play an enchanter. And want the option to play around with the charm makanic too. But with some limits, Pantheon is a social game if one enchanter with he's healer mate can plow through any content with a perma charmed pet. I would say there are a problem. Let's see how VR ends up doing it, hopefully we all are pleased.

    Totally understand where you are coming from.... My view point on classes is that it should be fun for the person to play to keep them interested in the game... I just hate when I hear people start trying to nerf things to the point of ... I have a stick and you have a stick .... I hit you for 1 point of damage then you hit me for the same.... not fun at all.... Not trying to say that in any way that you are saying this I just want to try and stop the nerf bat....

    Plus.... if there is an ability and its just so godly and it needs corections fine but i would rather see it done slowly and with thought so we do not get flavor of the month classes.....

    classes you play needs to be fun and engaging first and formost......

    • 156 posts
    November 2, 2018 9:44 PM PDT

    Nytman said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    We have seen their take on them so far and enchanters are very powerful. There's nothing wrong about people being concerned aout classes being too powerful or too weak. 

     

    Oh so in the streams you think they come off as being to powerful? Tell me how you come to this conclusion? Have you seen them use charm? I sure have not so tell me how you arrived at this.......

     

    Do they do more damage than a wizard? can they be a tank better than the tanks? How are they so powerful? what because they have control spells like a cc class should? because they give mana to there team?Tell me how you know this?

    They released many abliities for all the classes. That is what I was basing my opinion on. Not gameplay footage that has not been created or shared yet. Unresistable mezzes, permanent charms, these are both listed abilities. A class that single handedly lets a group fight many more enemies while also increasing the damage output of members via haste, and increasing how frequently they can kill enemies via mana regen buffs, and also doing their own damage via a pet and nukes is extremely potent. With such a ludicrously powerful toolset I can only hope they end up properly balanced but I can't really see that being possible.

    You don't have to be better then all other classes at their primary party role to be overpowered. You just need to bring too much to the table yourself and that is what the enchanter seems to do currently with the listed abilities. But I guess we can agree to disagree. 

    • 71 posts
    November 3, 2018 7:36 AM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Nytman said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    We have seen their take on them so far and enchanters are very powerful. There's nothing wrong about people being concerned aout classes being too powerful or too weak. 

     

    Oh so in the streams you think they come off as being to powerful? Tell me how you come to this conclusion? Have you seen them use charm? I sure have not so tell me how you arrived at this.......

     

    Do they do more damage than a wizard? can they be a tank better than the tanks? How are they so powerful? what because they have control spells like a cc class should? because they give mana to there team?Tell me how you know this?

    They released many abliities for all the classes. That is what I was basing my opinion on. Not gameplay footage that has not been created or shared yet. Unresistable mezzes, permanent charms, these are both listed abilities. A class that single handedly lets a group fight many more enemies while also increasing the damage output of members via haste, and increasing how frequently they can kill enemies via mana regen buffs, and also doing their own damage via a pet and nukes is extremely potent. With such a ludicrously powerful toolset I can only hope they end up properly balanced but I can't really see that being possible.

    You don't have to be better then all other classes at their primary party role to be overpowered. You just need to bring too much to the table yourself and that is what the enchanter seems to do currently with the listed abilities. But I guess we can agree to disagree. 

    By all means you can have your opinion but we still do not know for certain.... I am looking forward to seeing what VR does for enchanters and I hope they make it fun and engaging for enchanters....


    This post was edited by Nytman at November 3, 2018 9:39 AM PDT
    • 55 posts
    November 22, 2018 7:28 PM PST

    Cast spell Illusion: Troll

    What I'm hearing is "I couldn't play a chanter and dont wanna see those beast players in Pantheon!"

    Remove illusion.

    • 1 posts
    December 25, 2018 5:20 AM PST

    Using TLP to say Enchanter charming is OP in EQ classic is, while not incorrect, is a misrepresentation of the original implementation as it's nearly a direct result of all the QOL improvements made in the low level power curve made in recent years.

    It could be that I just didn't start early enough, as I only started with Velious launch, but charming was never a tactic that I saw widely used constantly and in all situations.  I only ever saw it used, or used it myself when dealing with giants as a CC measure. And a charm break usually meant a party wipe.

    That was at least until GoD was released and we had the insanity that was TIPT and VXED trials where a fully time geared SK couldn't tank a full quad from anything in the zone.  And the devs rather quickly castrating mob DPS stats while charmed to try and alleviate the easymode button they created with charmed Pooka's.  But even then a charm break was far from an event that an enchanter could easily stun, mez, charm without a character to help tame it, adn even then it was a 50/50 chance of a wipe if it was an unplanned break.


    This post was edited by Nuanil at December 25, 2018 5:22 AM PST
    • 55 posts
    December 25, 2018 5:52 AM PST

    Heya Nuanil!

    I admit it wasn't as widespread or rampant as it seems to be stated on these forums, but I would probably say it was more akin to uncommon than to rare. I used charm from the time I got it except while RP'n. That said, I only ever remember truly seeing 3 of us on the server that charmed mobs religiously. Seeing one of us in a zone w/o a charmed pet meant we were either afk, traveling through, or looking for a pet.

    Truthfully, during PoP all the folks that played chanters seemed to have turned their characters into buff bots and made new classes bc they fealt the nerfs were too much for chanters to be useful. The 3 of us I mentioned previously were the only ones I really saw after that which were truly "active" chanters. Afterwards I met some newer chanter mains but they thought their entire role was just to keep the group/raid buffed (/boggle).

    All of that said, there were a lot of folks who didn't want you to use charm due to the risk of wipe you mentioned. I tended to find duoing to be the way to go to avoid "no charm parties." A snared pet isn't scary at all and was definitely what I advised newly found duo partners to do. As an active chanter I never had to LFG, obviously, but having mutiple people to choose from to duo charm was really great as I could play my way w/o worry of anyone complaining about the risk of wipe bc of a bad experience they'd had in the past.

     

    Anyway, I'm tired and have rambled too much :-p

    Merry Christmas all!

     

    • 248 posts
    December 25, 2018 10:44 AM PST

     It's kind of sad people are crying for nerfs on something they've never played or seen played. Leave enchanters alone until you can actually show they are over-powered not just by words in a description that the devs can change at any time.

     

     It's really quite simple, an enchanter should be able to effectively charm any creature an equal level summoner can summon.

    • 71 posts
    December 30, 2018 5:51 PM PST

    DracoKalen said:

     It's kind of sad people are crying for nerfs on something they've never played or seen played. Leave enchanters alone until you can actually show they are over-powered not just by words in a description that the devs can change at any time.

     

     It's really quite simple, an enchanter should be able to effectively charm any creature an equal level summoner can summon.

    I cound not agree more with you? even if a charmed mob kept it full stats... that does not mean they can not be killed... Let the enchanter have fun...most of you seem happy to make them a mana battery and that is just wrong. I would like to see the enchanter charmed spell be like everquest.... so they can have fun and see what that class is really about. It is not certain that the pet will not break... but if you nerf the chanter they will only be buff bots

    also if the dire charm spell is a charm spell that can not be broken i am sure they will limit it

     


    This post was edited by Nytman at December 30, 2018 5:52 PM PST
    • 477 posts
    December 31, 2018 10:08 AM PST
    No body is crying for nearf or want charm makanic to not be usefull. Some of us just want balance to the madness that happens on eq that's all.

    • 795 posts
    December 31, 2018 12:35 PM PST

    The enchanter charm in EQ was broken. Paired with a cleric you could duo virtually anything that wasn't a raid boss. An enchanter pet was worth 5 melee dps easily and had double the hp a fully geared tank had. If a mob that takes a full group to kill can be charmed and used, while retaining all of its stats, then the enchanter will be the highest dpser, and argueably the best tank, all the while having CC. Throw in a healer class(duo) and you have a full group.

    Not advocating for the removal of charm, but EQ learned its lesson and debuffed the mob, like 50%, so it wasn't disgusting later on. I assume they will do the same thing in Pantheon.

    • 16 posts
    January 29, 2019 1:12 PM PST

    Disclaimer:

    I plan on rolling an Enchanter and playing it as my main for many years to come. 

    That being said I also despise skills that make other classes very obviously obsolete and the arbitraryness of OP things in general.  However I do feel that certain abilities should be a bit OP in order for you to feel totally epic while doing them.  So here are some of my ideas on charm.

    An enchanter should feel powerful while having something under charm.  I don't really think that toning down the mob is the answer.  I believe that since this is a PVE game that unless we are seeing entire raids comprised of enchanters and their god like pets that we can give some wiggle room to the OPness of charm especially given how contextual it is.  A charmed mob should hit hard, a charmed mob should have all of its abilities most of the time.

    That being said I do believe there should be some consequences when the mob BREAKS charm.

    • Hatred, a mobs hatred for the enchanter post charm should be very high, potentially make it ignore taunts as well.  Perhaps a 50% chance to ignore taunt after a charm break.
    • Right now Mez in Pantheon makes the mob less resistant to charm, perhaps charm itself should make the mob less resistent to mez but increase in resistance to being recharmed.  This would mean that generally upon charm break it would be very risky to try and recharm the same mob.  You would want to mez it to make the charm resistance go down again.

    I also think that one of the greatest incentives to charming mobs is access to their buffs/debuffs.  It would be great if having an Enchanter in your group meant further exploitation of the environment by having exotic buffs/debuffs from mobs that could help the group.

    Perma Charm - If we already have mobs smart enough to main target healers and do other intelligent abilities I am confident we can have mobs smart enough to dispell magic on a perma charmed pet in which case all other aformentioned negative consequences would be enacted such as the untauntability and the fact that the pet will still hit like a truck.

    In either way I think the balancing factor for charm should be its lack of security not lack of power.  It's also unfair to charm something and have it be less powerful while when it breaks charm it becomes more powerful.  I think that's too much of a nerf in a PVE game where everyone is trying to work together anyway.  I do think that other classes should have defining qualities like these that are equally as powerful.

    Oh, one more thing, I think this is an important one for PVE.  Charmed pets should generate a significantly reduced amount of threat such that it never competes with tanking.  Sure, it can have a large HP pool but the enchanter and tank should be easily pulling threat from it.  Healers should easily pull threat from it.

    Also caster charmed mobs and mobs with abilities should probably hit for less.  I think this wasn't really the case in Everquest where caster mobs hit like trucks regardless of what they were casting. 


    This post was edited by Drizzlin at January 29, 2019 1:15 PM PST
    • 13 posts
    March 2, 2019 1:29 PM PST

    The arguments are fascinating to me. When Enchanters were so heavily bound to magic resistance and being so useless in many important fights. Only compounded by the lack of need for CC as EQ went on.

    That we want to immediately ensure no "advantage" for high risk enchanter charm soloing or duoing.

    It's true charmed pets were very powerful and coupled with a dedicated healer like a Cleric or imo better yet a Shaman. You could really rip things up. however there are tons of great duos that people did instead of groups in a pinch. There were classes that could lock down higher level camps solo with little actual risk of dieing. They didn't output the dps that a charmed pet could but they also had virtually no risk. 

    This mindset is what worries me about Enchanters and how they'll turn out. CC is incredibly powerful when done well and can be a catchall to game design. Here's 50 mobs in X dungeon, you have to have CC to get through. Here's a raid with 100 mobs you need CC to get through etc... The only way to break up the repetition is to move away from CC. To have off tanks, to use AOE, kiting etc... Dedicated CC then starts to take a backseat to everything else. Things that are more convienent, less tempermental and require less skill or focus.

    One alternative to not being needed in groups as much was solo charming. When AA perma charming was found to be severely lacking because of the low level of the charmable mob and lack of availability, mixed with the need to babysit and risk the group / raid to bad pathing and trains. People dropped it. 

    Regular Charm soloing still required you to break camps to pull solo or slowly pick off mobs as you went. Dealing with mana consumption, early breaks, lack of defense when things went wrong, lack of healing or hap regen / buffing and respawn.

    What worries me on top of all this, is that part of the reason EQ was so great, was the sense that at its' core, it gave you a toolkit with which to play with. Feign Death is a great example. It wasn't used as it was oringally intended but had class defining results. It was later nerfed and I perosnally know of one Monk that quit EQ over it. That and the lack of buffing Monk DPS while giving Warriors and Rogues a bump at one point. But I digress.

    If everything is going to be perfectly balanced, it's at risk of being perfectly banal. 1 + 1 = 2 and if there's nothing you can do to change the equation, then it only works as far as balance. Which makes things predictable and not prone to experimentation and at its' core, lacking in fun. 

    • 37 posts
    March 19, 2019 4:10 PM PDT

    BamBam said:


    Personally i would hate to see a 5 man Enchanter grp with a cleric to heal the OP pets.. 

    Damn!  I was just gonna go with an Enchanter and 3 Summoners.  But I would seriously dig 3 Enchanters with permanent pets.  Maybe 1 Summoner can use Summon Behemoth three times?  I'd hate to have to five box, but it might be worth it.

    Mal