Forums » The Monk

Monk is not a puller ????

    • 16 posts
    June 17, 2018 11:49 AM PDT

    So tanks are going to be a pullers?

    • 90 posts
    June 17, 2018 3:00 PM PDT

    What leads you to that conclusion? They can still FD, they can still split, but they have to be careful which disposition mob they pull.

    • 1229 posts
    June 17, 2018 3:38 PM PDT

    My main will be a monk so I will testing and provding feedback for sure on anything monk.

    • 479 posts
    June 18, 2018 1:37 PM PDT

    frank3935 said:

    So tanks are going to be a pullers?

    There's no reason a skilled tank can't be a puller. As for monks, we've literally seen them doing the pulling for groups in streams. So not sure where that's coming from.

    • 495 posts
    June 19, 2018 6:45 AM PDT

    Kratuk said: There's no reason a skilled tank can't be a puller.

    Some of this depends on your group makeup. If you have a good offtank and a crowd controller in your group, then often anyone could be the puller since your group will handle splitting things up while they fight them. If on the other hand your group is dps heavier with less classes that can control extra mobs then you'll want to have puller that can manage splitting the targets before they make it to the group. This is where a monk may be handy.

    • 1638 posts
    June 19, 2018 11:29 AM PDT

    Of course monks will be pullers.  Most difficult mobs can't be CC'd.  Sure in mediocre, exp group type, difficulty lvl encounters anyone can pull but that's not when single pulling matters anyway. 

    Was there something I missed in the class releases that makes people think any of the tanks will be able to single pull as well as a monk?

    • 1767 posts
    June 27, 2018 4:35 PM PDT

    Kratuk said:

    frank3935 said:

    So tanks are going to be a pullers?

    There's no reason a skilled tank can't be a puller. As for monks, we've literally seen them doing the pulling for groups in streams. So not sure where that's coming from.

     

    There's a huge difference between pulling vs splitting mobs. I used to pull with my wizard when nobody else knew the zone or would take ownership. 

    • 42 posts
    July 18, 2018 7:58 PM PDT
    Edict of Stillness

    You pacify your enemy’s will for a short time, making them unresponsive to activity happening around them unless directly engaged.

     

    It looks like the cleric gets a pacify ability, which is pretty crucial ability for a puller. Clerics may turn out to be more effective pullers than monks. Everyone loves to talk about FD splitting and we saw it in a couple streams, it's a very slow process due to having to rely on random mob pathing to pull, and I feel some groups members won't have the patience for it.  Also, FD splitting didn't seem to effective in the streams, so I think groups may default towards having strong CC classes over a monk type of puller.  I played a monk in EQ, and i love the pullng part of the game. If they really want to bring back pulling in the game then monks should have that pacify ability. Otherwise, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a monk pulling and no CC class.

    • 1821 posts
    July 18, 2018 11:43 PM PDT

    Kasekil said:

    Edict of Stillness

    You pacify your enemy’s will for a short time, making them unresponsive to activity happening around them unless directly engaged.

     

    It looks like the cleric gets a pacify ability, which is pretty crucial ability for a puller. Clerics may turn out to be more effective pullers than monks. Everyone loves to talk about FD splitting and we saw it in a couple streams, it's a very slow process due to having to rely on random mob pathing to pull, and I feel some groups members won't have the patience for it.  Also, FD splitting didn't seem to effective in the streams, so I think groups may default towards having strong CC classes over a monk type of puller.  I played a monk in EQ, and i love the pullng part of the game. If they really want to bring back pulling in the game then monks should have that pacify ability. Otherwise, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a monk pulling and no CC class.

     

    Sure, but have you ever got a resist on a lull in classic EQ ? That's why monks or harmony were so popular, as long as you can break your intent if you get a resist, and stomp your group with unwanted mobs, lull will only be a "last ressort mana saving skill", and not something you use to split unmanageable packs.

    • 30 posts
    July 22, 2018 9:13 AM PDT

    Kasekil said:

    Edict of Stillness

    You pacify your enemy’s will for a short time, making them unresponsive to activity happening around them unless directly engaged.

     

    It looks like the cleric gets a pacify ability, which is pretty crucial ability for a puller. Clerics may turn out to be more effective pullers than monks. Everyone loves to talk about FD splitting and we saw it in a couple streams, it's a very slow process due to having to rely on random mob pathing to pull, and I feel some groups members won't have the patience for it.  Also, FD splitting didn't seem to effective in the streams, so I think groups may default towards having strong CC classes over a monk type of puller.  I played a monk in EQ, and i love the pullng part of the game. If they really want to bring back pulling in the game then monks should have that pacify ability. Otherwise, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a monk pulling and no CC class.

    Monks in EQ did not have the pacify ability (maybe this got added much later in EQs's life? If so, it was something they should not have added). I have played both a monk and enchanter extensively in EQ classic. Pacify can be resisted, at which point you get a lot of stuff coming which can ruin your day. Pacify was occasionally used to help break up a very tricky pull (but it was often a last resort because of the resist issue) but you still used your FD class to do the pulls. If the pull went wrong, you FD and let them reset or proceed to start splitting them with sneak. Sneak was highly effective in pulling / splitting and any monk worth their handwraps mastered this technique. If you had an enchanter in the group, the puller would bring a few into camp and have the enchanter mez the extras (provided they could be mez'd.. other wise root parking).  There were so many methods to handle multiple mobs in camp but the main thing was, if you had a monk, you had them pull because of the FD ability. You never sent your cleric (you know, the guy with rez?) out to pull. First, he should be sitting on his ass medding for heals and buffs. Second, if he dies, good luck getting him back to the group which can effectively be shut down or severely limited depending upon what healer classes the rest of the group was. On dicey / bad pulls, we moved the cleric out of view from the camp, ready to camp out if the pull went really bad and we wound up with too many mobs in camp. He could then log in after the wipe to rez.

    So there are many, many reasons you use a monk for pulls and NOT your cleric. No FD puller meant the group had to plan on how to handle multiple mobs and it required some sharp players who knew their classes well and could use them beyond the basics (root parks, necro heals, etc). I sometimes pulled on my enchanter and it worked incredibly well. Tash pull, party engages. Run off and get next mob and mez at camp. Slow, re-mez / memwipe, run off and get another.. 

    • 903 posts
    July 22, 2018 7:36 PM PDT

    It looks like the tanks will have some minor CC but likely wont be roaming dungeons looking for enemies to "pull" back to where camp is set up.  It also looks as though all three of the melee DPS roles will be viable pullers so that you don't have to rely on a single class mechanic (FD split pulling).  The rogue, monk and ranger seem to all have abilities that can be used to split groups of enemies effectively, while the tanks will be able to CC in the absence of enchanter/bard (albiet likely poor CC in comparison).  Ranger and Rogue can incapacitate targets for 24-30 seconds, and tanks will be able to CC one enemy and tank another from the descriptions given to us... I would have to think that with root in there too that you wouldn't have to absolutely need a monk or AoE mez to pull groups of 3-4 mobs with relative ease if everyone is working together.  As long as you have a tank, healer and at least 1 melee DPS in your group you should be ok for small content assuming we test the balancing well enough next year :)

    Of course you wont always need the quarintiy or holy trinity but it will be a nice mix of classes I think.

     


    This post was edited by Darch at July 22, 2018 7:52 PM PDT
    • 42 posts
    December 2, 2018 12:29 AM PST

    The best puller in EQ was a Tank :P well sorta, if you classify a Shadowknight as a tank I suppose. lol good offtank I guess :P.

     

    Cascading Darkness Line and FD was a powerful pulling combo.

     

    So not much has changed.

    • 77 posts
    September 29, 2019 7:50 AM PDT

    I'd be kind of happy being a straight DPS class, now that I'm older I'm ok if I don't have to pull all the time!

    • 903 posts
    September 29, 2019 4:46 PM PDT

    I'm not playing the monk literally because I'm tired of being the puller.  I would absolutely play the monk otherwise.  The rest of the party sits around having time to socialize and joke around while waiting for the puller do the bulk of the work of splitting/breaking camps - no thanks.

    • 28 posts
    March 10, 2020 4:30 AM PDT

    As someone that never played EQ I was very surprised to see in streams that a monk was the puller.  Thematically and lore wise I can't understand why that would be the case.  I get the feeling that they had a FD abiliyand players found a way to use it for pulls.  

    Having said that I hope this is reconsidered moving forward.  As a melee class which is normally weaponless (in visual attack annimations) I don't like that they now range pull.  A ranger seems like the perfect fit thematically. Any range class after that.  

    The devs always seem to put a lot of thought into every decision, I just hope this isn't one where "it's what we always had so let's keep it the same". 

    • 90 posts
    March 10, 2020 7:19 AM PDT

    @Grayjackgaming Monks are not bloodthirsty adventurers. At least, not the monks I'm thinking of. Lose wise (imo) it doesn't make sense for them to be in the game at all, let alone as exclusive pullers, but they're here and in game, so let's look briefly at them, shall we?

    Monks can throw things. Monks can 'cancel' pulls if they turn out badly. Monks are not normally weaponless. They use martial arts weapons (in EQ, clubs and staves and fists and claws). Lastly, monks have high evasion, or at least had, which combined with the other things made them perfect pullers and, at times, evasion tanks.

    You are entering into a realm full of dyed in the wool EQ players, EQ fans, and people who think the MMO scene is lacking something, that it needs to return to its roots. Monk pulling is among its roots. I'm not saying that EQ is the only game that matters or that I want to re-play EQ endlessly, but you have to be familiar with material in order to accurately critique it.

    Finally, I'm not going to say you're wrong for wanting what you want. What you want is valid, but I think you're hoping in vain for something that's not going to change. You have hordes of monk players wanting to play a monk similar to the kind of experience that EQ offered. You're right as well in that the devs always put a lot of thought into their decisions, but I don't think nixing monk pulling is going to be one of them, especially when your first argument begins with 'I've never played the source material.' 

    • 28 posts
    March 10, 2020 8:23 AM PDT

    wizen said:

    @Grayjackgaming Monks are not bloodthirsty adventurers. At least, not the monks I'm thinking of. Lose wise (imo) it doesn't make sense for them to be in the game at all, let alone as exclusive pullers, but they're here and in game, so let's look briefly at them, shall we?

    Monks can throw things. Monks can 'cancel' pulls if they turn out badly. Monks are not normally weaponless. They use martial arts weapons (in EQ, clubs and staves and fists and claws). Lastly, monks have high evasion, or at least had, which combined with the other things made them perfect pullers and, at times, evasion tanks.

    You are entering into a realm full of dyed in the wool EQ players, EQ fans, and people who think the MMO scene is lacking something, that it needs to return to its roots. Monk pulling is among its roots. I'm not saying that EQ is the only game that matters or that I want to re-play EQ endlessly, but you have to be familiar with material in order to accurately critique it.

    Finally, I'm not going to say you're wrong for wanting what you want. What you want is valid, but I think you're hoping in vain for something that's not going to change. You have hordes of monk players wanting to play a monk similar to the kind of experience that EQ offered. You're right as well in that the devs always put a lot of thought into their decisions, but I don't think nixing monk pulling is going to be one of them, especially when your first argument begins with 'I've never played the source material.' 

     

    I don't think you have to be a blood thirsty adventure to be justifiably in the game lorewise.  

    I just have a hard time thinking of a monk as a range class and I think it's understandable to expect a range class to be a puller. 

    As for me joining a community full of EQ players, I freaking LOVE that! Even if I didn't play it myself.  I will say (and I think the devs would agree) Pantheon is not an EQ sequel. EQ absolutely had some fundamental aspects that defined the genra that Pantheon will take that torch from.  I.e. challenge, community, a real sense of achievement. I don't think rebirthing those fundamental core concepts is then a reason to believe every class from pantheon will play just like that class did in EQ. 

     

    And just so you know where I'm coming from and my tone of this post, I think about Pantheon 24/7 and simply want to discuss it with like minded people.  I won't be playing a monk nor am I overly concerned with this specific topic.  It's simply a thought, and one I wanted to hear the opinion of others on. 

    • 90 posts
    March 10, 2020 9:19 AM PDT

    Not necessarily, but you have to admit that when you think monk, you think peaceful inner life, harmonious outer life, and to me that doesn't speak to, for example, sitting in the hallway of a keep beating up the guards because their faction doesn't happen to matter to you.

    Gotta break those paradigms, friend. :)

    I'm not saying Pantheon is a sequel to EQ, but certain conventions common to older PvE MMOs were established in EQ, and that is what makes it a good reference point when talking about games like Pantheon. :)

    Glad to know where you're coming from. Like I said, that's just what I think. Pantheon is going to be a sick game and I am going to play it obsessively. It is known.

    • 638 posts
    March 10, 2020 3:48 PM PDT

    Grayjackgaming said: I just have a hard time thinking of a monk as a range class and I think it's understandable to expect a range class to be a puller.

    Monks and Rogues both have throwing weapons, while Warriors can use bows. Nothing we've seen so far suggests that those classes will do serious ranged damage with those weapons, which leaves many of us expecting that they are primarily intended for pulling.

     

    wizen said:

    you have to admit that when you think monk, you think peaceful inner life, harmonious outer life, and to me that doesn't speak to, for example, sitting in the hallway of a keep beating up the guards because their faction doesn't happen to matter to you.

    Gotta break those paradigms, friend. :)

    That is certainly a common and well founded paradigm for monks. However, there is another long held paradigm for monks. In real life, many 'Warrior Monks' have existed in history. Many of the Knights Templar who fought the Crusades were monks. One synonym for Templar is Paladin.

    In the 1500s, the Pope created the Jesuits. Their founding documents call for "whoever desires to serve as a soldier of God, to strive especially for the defence and propagation of the faith". They have been (justifiably) portrayed as the 'Storm Troopers of God' since then, engaging in intrigue and outright warfare for centuries. A Jesuit tried to assasinate the King of France in the 1500s, another lead an attempt to assasinate the King of England in the 1600s. Jesuits were active in the Underground Resistance to the Nazis in WW2.They still exist as such, to this day.

    By a curious coincidence, the current Pope -Francis- is the first Jesuit ever to become pope.

    If you've heard of Kwai Chang Caine from Kung Fu, you know the Asian version of warrior monks. Caine is fictional, but Shaolin type, martial monks have existed for centuries.

    And one last example. They may not have been called monks in the stories, but the Jedi pretty much exemplify most of the qualities of a martially trained monk.


    This post was edited by Jothany at March 10, 2020 3:49 PM PDT
    • 28 posts
    March 10, 2020 7:03 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    Grayjackgaming said: I just have a hard time thinking of a monk as a range class and I think it's understandable to expect a range class to be a puller.

    Monks and Rogues both have throwing weapons, while Warriors can use bows. Nothing we've seen so far suggests that those classes will do serious ranged damage with those weapons, which leaves many of us expecting that they are primarily intended for pulling.

     

    wizen said:

    you have to admit that when you think monk, you think peaceful inner life, harmonious outer life, and to me that doesn't speak to, for example, sitting in the hallway of a keep beating up the guards because their faction doesn't happen to matter to you.

    Gotta break those paradigms, friend. :)

    That is certainly a common and well founded paradigm for monks. However, there is another long held paradigm for monks. In real life, many 'Warrior Monks' have existed in history. Many of the Knights Templar who fought the Crusades were monks. One synonym for Templar is Paladin.

    In the 1500s, the Pope created the Jesuits. Their founding documents call for "whoever desires to serve as a soldier of God, to strive especially for the defence and propagation of the faith". They have been (justifiably) portrayed as the 'Storm Troopers of God' since then, engaging in intrigue and outright warfare for centuries. A Jesuit tried to assasinate the King of France in the 1500s, another lead an attempt to assasinate the King of England in the 1600s. Jesuits were active in the Underground Resistance to the Nazis in WW2.They still exist as such, to this day.

    By a curious coincidence, the current Pope -Francis- is the first Jesuit ever to become pope.

    If you've heard of Kwai Chang Caine from Kung Fu, you know the Asian version of warrior monks. Caine is fictional, but Shaolin type, martial monks have existed for centuries.

    And one last example. They may not have been called monks in the stories, but the Jedi pretty much exemplify most of the qualities of a martially trained monk.

     

    This is the content I come here for!!! lol

    • 638 posts
    March 10, 2020 7:49 PM PDT

    Grayjackgaming said:

    This is the content I come here for!!! lol

    We aim to please :)

    • 90 posts
    March 11, 2020 7:04 AM PDT

    While the comment about breaking paradigms was in response to "I just have a hard time thinking of a monk as a range class and I think it's understandable to expect a range class to be a puller," I too am glad to learn something this day. Thank you, Jothany, for the very informative post! +1!


    This post was edited by wizen at March 11, 2020 7:04 AM PDT
    • 77 posts
    April 26, 2020 3:13 PM PDT

    @jothany  you've done a great job supporting your view of Monks, one that I happen to share.   I'd also like to perhaps remind folks of another Monk view, that of the Thomas Covenant Series of Books, where the Monks had two names: the Haruchai and The Bloodguard.  Talk about your "warrior monks", these guys made a binding vow that made them almost immortals, and timeless, i.e. they didn't age. 500 of them held back entire armies, similar to the movie "300"...except that almost none of them died.

    Anyway, this was a ki, chi based mystical warrior, heavy on defense and DPS, and not a puller.  I kind of hope Pantheon's monks end up that was, and hope they have a raid role, a group role, and the ability to solo.  I don't ask much :)

    PS  I do want a fungic tunic type gi, (and gi's in general, which we have already kind of seen photos of) and of course: The Tranquil Staff.

    And again, nice work Jothany!

     

     

     

      


    This post was edited by Nagasakee at April 26, 2020 3:14 PM PDT
    • 638 posts
    May 2, 2020 8:05 PM PDT

    I must have not checked the 'notify me of replies' when I posted.....

    Anyway, thanks for the kudos. Happy to spread the love for Monks :)

    • 903 posts
    May 3, 2020 6:11 PM PDT

    Judging by the looks of abilities, I'm "assuming" that the physical DPS classes (Ranger, Rogue, Monk) will likely all be better suited for "pulling" compared to the casters and tanks.  When I say "puller" I'm eluding to the ability to split groups and/or single pull NPCs that would typically be social.  We obviously have the Monk's FD, but it looks like the ranger will be able to do things similar to the Eye of Zomm trick in EQ with their stealthy scouting pets, lulls and traps + tracking, while the rogue will have what appears to be the WoW equivalent to "distract" and "vanish" (that in theory will work similar to FD).