Forums » The Paladin

Paladin needs actually utility, not a singular focus

    • 64 posts
    June 14, 2018 10:49 AM PDT

    As a long time Paladin player I realize the reveal looks good for the most part.  Finally, paladins have a lot of offense and defense.  

     

    However, there is also an obvious issue with the lack of utility the Paladin has right now.  The only utility is in healing, everything else is just about making the paladin do some damage or tank some damage.  That's not utility, it's singular focus.

     

    The undead aspets are also a negative in a way becuase how often does a game have undead in every encounter?  Most of the time undead makes up a small portion of the fights, forcing the Paladin to dwell in specific areas while other classes provide a bonus to all content.  A better way of doing this is having the paladin get a bonus to all creatures with a smaller bonus on top for undead only.  Still stronger against undead while also being useful in all other encounters.

     

    I realize this is a first draft of abilities and skills but what the Paladin his right now makes for a very one dimensional playstyle.

     


    This post was edited by Ruar at June 14, 2018 10:51 AM PDT
    • 820 posts
    June 14, 2018 11:09 AM PDT

    I disagree. 

    Paladins have, at this time, two of arguably most important benefits in an MMO. They can take damage, and they can heal. To give them more utility on the side is creating a recipe for a class that is overpowered. 

    Additionally, a big draw of Pantheon for me is how different the classes are from one another. I want classes to be good at one thing, and suck at others. By giving the Paladin more utility, you're taking another step towards class homogenization. 

    • 64 posts
    June 14, 2018 11:15 AM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    I disagree. 

    Paladins have, at this time, two of arguably most important benefits in an MMO. They can take damage, and they can heal. To give them more utility on the side is creating a recipe for a class that is overpowered. 

    Additionally, a big draw of Pantheon for me is how different the classes are from one another. I want classes to be good at one thing, and suck at others. By giving the Paladin more utility, you're taking another step towards class homogenization. 

     

    Take damage and heal. 

     

    What happens when the group has a healer and they are looking for someone else to fill an add tank slot?  Take the one that takes damage and can heal a little, or take one that can take damage and provide additional utility the group doesn't already have?

     

    Pretty much every MMO I've played ends up being the group wants a diverse set of skills rather than stacking the same things.

     

    And honestly, having the ability to root, stun, snare, or shield an ally is much more valuable than being able to do a bit more damage, or take a bit more damage, to undead.    

    • 78 posts
    June 14, 2018 12:41 PM PDT

    I disagree, I remember it being stated that undead "undeath" will be much more important in the world. I took that to mean that it's just not going to be spots of undead here and there, but actually a force in the world that needs to be dealt with.

     

    Also, remember, with this reveals, this is only a glimpse into the class(es) so we the community can get a ideal, and general mindset of what they view each class. Giving feedback, thoughts, opinions and suggestions is great! But please try and be respectful not only to the team but also the community. We only got a glimpse into the paladin, not all skills, abilities, etc are shown. Keep some of it a mystery. I personally, have already made a post regarding my thoughts on the reveal where I went skill by skill and gave my input. 

     

    Also, I would suggest like I did. Take a day, read each ability over and over and try and think outside of the normal that we know paladins to be. Let what they do sink in and think about it. I know we each have our own "idea" of what a paladin should be, should be played, etc, etc. But take a step back, think within the scope of what they are tring to do and then go from there. I personally like a majoirty of the skills that were shown, I do have a few concerns, but mostly fall into the "I will have to try it or see it" area. 

    • 69 posts
    June 14, 2018 1:05 PM PDT

    Guess it depends on what your expectation of utility is.  To me heals and a rez is hugely important - especially in a game with Corpse Runs.  One of the main reasons I play a Paladin is so that I have spot heals for when the crap goes wrong - far more important to me than a tank that does a bit more DPS.  The only reason I wouldn't take a Pally as tank in group is if I have already got a second heal type in group...but that is because by having that second heal the party probably lacks DPS so a DPS tank would be handy.

     

    Pally also has strikes that strip buffs from enemies and also a form of mez it seems as well as some form of removing a mob from combat with Knight's Persuasion perhaps?

    The only thing I would like to see more of is Rescues like the Pally had in Vanguard

    • 271 posts
    June 14, 2018 1:30 PM PDT

    Utility and Undead Focus aside, Wrathful Aegis, Living Light, and - to a lesser extent - Fiery Aegis are pretty profound differentiators.  I could very easily be wrong, but I read them as a signal of intent from the designers that paladins are going excel as crowd tanks.

    • 820 posts
    June 14, 2018 1:36 PM PDT

    Ruar said:

    Pretty much every MMO I've played ends up being the group wants a diverse set of skills rather than stacking the same things.   

    Agreed - unless that other thing is heals. Adding heals to a party is almost always welcome. 

    Ruar said:

    What happens when the group has a healer and they are looking for someone else to fill an add tank slot?  Take the one that takes damage and can heal a little, or take one that can take damage and provide additional utility the group doesn't already have?

    Again, adding heals is almost always welcome. And Paladin's give an off-tank AND off-heals? That's a steal!

    I complete disagree that being able to root and stun is "more valuable" to a group than tanking or healing. Not even sure I understand the logic of that. Truly think this is a non-issue. 

    Look, I get it, I main a paladin on P99 right now and I LOVE the utility. I can debuff, root, and stun, and it's awesome. But I would trade that in for better mitigation and better healing ANY day of the week, because that's what really keeps me alive, day to day. 


    This post was edited by Tralyan at June 14, 2018 1:36 PM PDT
    • 1650 posts
    June 14, 2018 1:38 PM PDT

    That's a problem I've seen in every game : Everyone consider his own class as beeing lacking in some department by considering what they have as "garbage" or "irrelevant" while only looking at shinies from other classes.

     

    Heals are utility, wether you like it or not, it makes a difference in some situation and might not in others. I feel the paladin looks like a pretty balanced warrior with a lot of benefits, but I'm sure we can hardly judge on a class reveal of only a few abilities with the gameplay not even designed practically.

    • 477 posts
    June 14, 2018 1:44 PM PDT
    Hymn of stronghold alone is enough utility that the paladin will get a spot in any group of you ask me.

    Also Golden Agis seems pretty legit

    Also mind that any healing you is equal to more agro and threat generation, also from the streams healers do NOT have an easy time. So any help they can get is a game changer. Just my 2 cents <3
    • 58 posts
    June 14, 2018 2:28 PM PDT

    Seems to have a decent amount of utility to me, even outside of healing. A resurrect, a mesmerize, an AoE blind that serves as a brief torch, shared AC via Hymn of Stronghold, a ranged pull, and more. I kinda get your intended point, I just don't think it necessarily applies given what we currently know. An ability can support a "focus" while still being a utility in nature.

    • 18 posts
    June 14, 2018 3:08 PM PDT

    Wait what?

     

    They just revealed that Paladin would have major CC abilities with summoning mirror images of itself to off tank and an ability to force a humanoid out of combat and you're writing that they lack utility?

     

    It's a frigging tank that has major crowd control abilities on top of the usual heals, stuns and damage immunities.

     

    I'm seriously considerng maining Paladin simply because of how crazy much utility they seemed to pack into it despite not having played it in any other game or liking the lore trope.

    • 396 posts
    June 14, 2018 4:09 PM PDT

    Paladin Utility:
    Many stun-centric abilities
    Many healing abilities
    Atone (rez)
    Knight's Persuasion (humanoid de-combat)
    Brilliant Aegis (blind)
    Glorified Self and Miraculous Shimmer (detain with image)

    It seems like tanking, stunning, healing, and situational abilities, which to me is just fine. The images could be minor situational tricks or they could be a core component of Paladin tanking, we just don't know yet.

    I guess what I'm wondering is, what would make the OP happy to see? Should a Paladin be rooting? mezzing? buffing? I think the role of the Paladin is shaping up to be just as broad as the Dire Lord or Warrior. I think it's looking pretty good as it stands.

    The undead portion of your argument is entirely separate though and one that I worry about also. Is it Paladins=Undead Tank, Dire Lord=Magic Tank, and Warrior=Physical Tank? If so, is there enough undead in the world to warrant that balance? This is really diving into the speculation hole though.

     

    For reference... (not a comprehensive list as "utility" is not clearly defined)

    Warrior Utility:
    War Horn (fear against some)
    Storm (stun)
    Banners (buffs)
    Formations (buffs)
    Shield Slam (interrupt/stun)

    Dire Lord Utility:
    Dire Mark (damage funnel)
    Baleful Severing (mez?)
    Grip of Tormet (prevent healing)
    Leaden Blood (root)
    Canopy of Blood (aoe magic immunity)

    • 355 posts
    June 14, 2018 8:40 PM PDT

    I have to say that I'm considering maining a Paladin due to all the utility the class shows.  I loved raiding as a Dirge in EQ2.  I rarely did much damage in the fight, but I had a ton of side jobs to do during all raid enouncters, including off tanking, battle rezzing, and interrupting spells with stuns.  I see a lot of the same utility for raiding with the Paladin in this game.  The Stronghold AC hymn guarantees they are always in the main tank group on a raid, they have massive off tank and CC abilities, they can battle rez, and they have interrupts.  Healing is going to be another job they can assist with as a primary off tank on a raid.  I don't think raiding will be boring on a Paladin.  And then on Undead, they can always Main Tank, so they can experience that as well.  I see one of the strongest utility classes, especially for a tank, an MMO has seen.

     

    Also, on the Fires of Heaven forum, Joppa said that the Paladin's Knight's Persuasion ability is essentially a de-aggro mez, but that it can also be used on hostile mobs found in Terminus so that you can talk to them and get quests or find out lore tidbits.  He's excited for the potential of that ability, I am too.  

    • 409 posts
    June 14, 2018 11:41 PM PDT
    Also, undeath wont be the same as it has been in other games - Id imagine there'll be more of them, given VR's paladin. Nice utility-listing, posters.
    • 208 posts
    June 16, 2018 6:22 AM PDT

    Each tank is suppose to offer different abilities to their groups. The Paladin is still a tank; they just excel with the Undead. And with Dire Lord, they handle magic better. Does that make them less viable vs encounters with mostly Melee? No... 

    If you read Pantheon's Paladin abilities and their other tanks; there's a lot of options there. If you're going into a dungeon and can't find yourself a healer, guess who you can use as a sort of substitute in order to actually enter into said dungeon? The Paladin... With the rez, and the little heals they have, you have the option of taking a Paladin as a secondary tank or a substitute healer. Now, this isn't something you'd want to focus. No Paladin should match in heals to actual healers. However, what little healing they do have, it provides an option towards those groups who are struggling to find a healer to join their ranks.

    I don't know if that's their intention. But if it is, I fully support it. These odd groups shouldn't be super viable or something to strive for. There should be another option in order to allow people to continue their adventures without coming to a complete halt. These sort of groups should take a lot longer to complete dungeons or quests - or only complete easier parts of dungeons. But I'm sure we can all agree sitting and waiting for a healer for 45 minutes really kills the gaming vibe. Groups shouldn't have to completely rely on main healers to be in group in order to continue playing the game. That's probably why a lot of games added those silly LFG queues for dungeons. The lack of finding tanks and healers put such a large pause on peoples' gameplay they just decided to not play or completely skip some of the best parts of the game in order to move on.

     

    But at the end of the day, no one is forcing you to play Paladin, OP. There are two other tanks. Warriors seem like a load of fun, with their banners and their buffs to melee. A whole group of people are going to love you. Or you can be Dire Lord, they have crazy magical blood that works wonders for you and your group! And if they still don't have what you like. Then you just might have to consider this might not be the game for you. Which is no biggie, but I would seriously allow yourself to play a few hours of Paladin (And Pantheon!)before fully giving up on it. You might just find that VR made the best Paladin you'll ever play.


    This post was edited by fancy at June 16, 2018 6:27 AM PDT
    • 1179 posts
    June 16, 2018 4:54 PM PDT

    DonRight said:

    Wait what?

     

    They just revealed that Paladin would have major CC abilities with summoning mirror images of itself to off tank and an ability to force a humanoid out of combat and you're writing that they lack utility?

     

    It's a frigging tank that has major crowd control abilities on top of the usual heals, stuns and damage immunities.

     

    I'm seriously considerng maining Paladin simply because of how crazy much utility they seemed to pack into it despite not having played it in any other game or liking the lore trope.

     

    Yeah.  I don’t think I could disagree with the OP more.  The utility the Paladin has seems to be pretty incredible.  I see four abilities (not counting stuns) that keep a mob from fighting you or your group; one of those abilities is AE.  On top of that you can stun, heal, resurrect, buff armor class, debuff something that maybe no other class can remove, push/pull mobs all over the place, and absolutely wreck anything undead you stumble upon...

    • 202 posts
    June 16, 2018 8:51 PM PDT

    fancy said:

    You might just find that VR made the best Paladin you'll ever play.

    I'm getting that feeling, too.

    • 69 posts
    June 20, 2018 5:56 AM PDT

    fancy said:

    You might just find that VR made the best Paladin you'll ever play.

     

    And that is one hell of an achievement because the Vanguard Paladin was the Dog's Bollocks of Paladins

  • Wig
    • 209 posts
    July 6, 2018 4:32 AM PDT
    Yes, healing is nice.l, but let’s think of it from a tank perspective. A paladin throwing out a few heals upon pulling five mobs makes him become an AoE threat generating monster.
    • 1384 posts
    July 15, 2018 7:50 PM PDT
    I disagree with the op, we take damage, heal, and have stuns which can be used as a way of cc, very soft cc but cc all the same, plus his heals work extremely well with the healers, especially the druids now. So yeah, and yes we lost a lot of the "cleric" said of things when it comes to buffing but when you can tank, have what looks like an increase of damage and heal something has to go, and part of that was our bugs and like some people said in way earlier post we were ready to lose something to be able to do decent damage on our favorite class, I remember being a lvl 105 paladin and fighting something for like 15 minutes before it died has for I saw a druid kill it in 2 minutes or a ranger in 2 arrows.
    • 1384 posts
    July 15, 2018 7:53 PM PDT
    My bad ruar I just said your other post on another thread, so I guess you see the light now lol
    • 581 posts
    July 17, 2018 2:55 PM PDT

    The reveals are only a preview. They don't list all abilities so no telling what other utility is to come. 

    Honestly, paladins look very solid and have made me rethink my warrior decision. Guess only testing will tell.

    • 198 posts
    July 20, 2018 4:43 PM PDT

    The Paladin is looking like really strong utility tank right now. Tanky, heals, disruption. You will be able to deal some damage while interupting mobs and also acting pseudo CC by occupying a mob, eleviating the burden on both the tank and the healer of the group. It is looking very strong in my eyes. No the utility isn't straight forward utility spells, it is more about creative use of your strenghts which are pretty impressive.

     

    Spells of the Paladin I am considering utility that isn't healing:

    Pommel and Cross: Chance to stun

    Glorified Self: Image of yourself you send out to battle an enemy

    Miraculous Shimmer: Teleport/Charge to lowest health ally and image to battle an enemy

    Chastening Blow: Strips "profane" and "curse" related enchantments from enemies

    Hollowed Assault: Strips "Mark of High Mortals" from enemy

    Edict of Celestial Fury: Spell reflect

    Edict of Celestial Force: Push back

    Edict of Celestial Might: Pull in

    Edict of Celestial Authority: Stun

    Knight's Persuasion: Pacify mob

    Fiery Aegis: Knockdown

    Brilliant Aegis: Blind

    Golden Aegis: Damage immunity

    Atone: Ressurection


    That is LOADS of interrupting CC, it isn't Mez or some other long lasting stuff, but any mob trying to cast a spell when a paladin is present is going to have hell. Together with the images and offensive debuffing (Seemingly? What is "mark of high mortals" even? Can I decurse an ally with Chastening Blow?). I think paladin has an excellent kit


    This post was edited by Youmu at July 20, 2018 5:14 PM PDT
    • 197 posts
    August 13, 2018 1:00 PM PDT

    I would like the Paladin to be able to main tank or main heal anything if set up properly for either.  I wouldn't want a jack of all trades class that isn't good at any one thing.

    The CC ability intrigues me, but again, I am curious how useful it will be compared to say, an enchanter.  One thing I don't want to see is a class that's not really great at anything, because that's what the EQ Paladin was and it was really tough to find a group.

    • 55 posts
    December 20, 2018 9:20 AM PST

    asteldian said:

    Guess it depends on what your expectation of utility is.  To me heals and a rez is hugely important - especially in a game with Corpse Runs.  One of the main reasons I play a Paladin is so that I have spot heals for when the crap goes wrong - far more important to me than a tank that does a bit more DPS.  The only reason I wouldn't take a Pally as tank in group is if I have already got a second heal type in group...but that is because by having that second heal the party probably lacks DPS so a DPS tank would be handy.

     

    Pally also has strikes that strip buffs from enemies and also a form of mez it seems as well as some form of removing a mob from combat with Knight's Persuasion perhaps?

    The only thing I would like to see more of is Rescues like the Pally had in Vanguard

    Exactly, Paladins have utility. They can help heal and rez the cleric when the cleric dies. Would a group want a paladin if it already had a warrior tank? Sure they would. 1 main tank, 1 offtank/heal/rezer.