Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Exploring

    • 9 posts
    February 24, 2018 12:56 PM PST

    Just a thought here. How do the devs feel about giving players a small amount of xp for exploing zones and or to fully explore every aspect of the map? I know this night be hard to do with a open world. I just subscribed so I might be a bit late on this discussion, but if there were achievemnents put in at launch or post launch maybe use this to have more motivation to clear every inch of Terminus.

    • 258 posts
    February 24, 2018 3:05 PM PST

    If the devs do their job well, I imagine most people will feel encouraged to explore without the added benefit of XP gains or achievements.

    Personally, I'm not a fan of this stuff. One of the main reasons for not liking it is the fact that it breaks immersion instantly. I hate hearing/seeing: *BING* "ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: BLAH BLAH".... *BING* "35 XP GAINED" in the middle of my screen. Most of the extra fluff that they've been cramming into modern games has really been detrimental to immersion, which is very important to some people (like me).

    Welcome to the forums, btw! For future reference, in case you are unaware, it is recommended to use the forum search option before opening a thread. Almost everything you can imagine has been discussed at one point or another, and the devs frown upon opening duplicate threads. Always best to see if you're able to revive / add to an existing thread. :D

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2058/what-does-exploration-mean-to-you


    This post was edited by Kaen at February 24, 2018 3:07 PM PST
    • 1281 posts
    February 24, 2018 4:18 PM PST

    Back when I played EQ, I loved exploring, even though I didn't get a thing out of it.  I would, literally, take a week off of grinding and just run around exploring and jot down notes on memorable areas and items I saw along the way.

    • 191 posts
    February 26, 2018 7:45 AM PST

    No need to gamify exploration.  Minimizing explicit game mechanics is best.

    • 2886 posts
    February 26, 2018 8:15 AM PST

    I agree with the above - exploration should reward you naturally. If the world sucks you in, it should be exciting just not knowing what's around the next corner. And if you find a new spot that's great for grinding or loot, then that's your reward. The fact that the world is so large and full of mystery should alone motivate you to explore it - it's the great unknown. I think the Perception system in particular will really drive exploration in an engaging way. From the FAQ:

    1.8 Will there be hidden things all over the world that encourage players to travel off the beaten path? Not just for ‘story’ progression, not just for quests, but for the sake of just... adventuring?

    Yes, linked to our Perception system. If your perception skill is not high enough or the wrong type, what may be visible to others will not be visible to you.

    If artificial XP bonuses are needed, then exploration isn't interesting enough. And I feel like that would just encourage players to come up with maps with all the POIs labeled so that others can just run a preset circuit to hit all the XP spots, without really paying attention to the details of what's around them. Also, in order to slow down the leveling process as much as realistically possible, sources of XP should probably be limited to just mob kills and questing.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at February 26, 2018 9:38 AM PST
    • 30 posts
    February 26, 2018 8:34 AM PST

    I do not like the idea of handing out anything like XP or titles as a reward for exploring. Pantheon is supposed to be challenging and handing out stuff (XP or other things) for roaming around the world is counter to this underlying principal. There will be abundant reasons to get out and explore and it will not need a carrot to entice others to do so. This is particularly the case early in the game's life where nobody knows where anything is or what a zone has. I remember the excitemtn of playing EQ for the first time. I had no clue where anythign was. There were no maps, no guides, nothing but a zoneline you crossed into someplace else. As a sidenote, I really like the zone-based world design. It always gives each zone a unique feel to it without having to build a lot of transitional stuff in between.

    Lastly, the deveopers have been very keen on creating a huge world with so much to explore and experience. Quests are stumbled upon instead of fed to players in an assemblyline of NPC quest givers. Finding some new quest is a great reward. Dynamic events triggered by anything from player actions to seasons, weather and even celestial events (Brad one mentioned something potentially being triggererd by the equinox in the game) will keep players constantly exploring and seeking out these hidden gems. XP gain I think will fade to the background as players enjoy the world content so much that they forget to keep watching that bar crawl up.

    • 696 posts
    February 26, 2018 8:48 AM PST

    Depends on how the game comes out. If there is information on every zone and mob and places to go and stuff, then maybe. I tend , to my dismay, look at all the information I can before going into a game. I hope with the release that they have no information really in most of the zones, and the information is player driven by having to explore and figure things out as a community. If they do that then the incentive is there already.

    • 9 posts
    February 26, 2018 10:39 AM PST

    I agree with most of the posts on this topic. I personally like to explore worlds in the various games I have played. After watching all the art and the gameplay I can't not wait to explore Terminus. It looks amazing and really looking forward to battle the elements what a great idea that was. The art and graphics are just too good and it will be exciting to find the hidden quests and objects. The last thing I wanted was a WoW clone game. This game just looks great.

    • 115 posts
    February 26, 2018 12:47 PM PST

    I agree with most above. 

     

    Saying that, a neat bonus for exploring the majority of a zone could be to reward the player with a tiny edge on that zone's mobs.

     

    Something like -1% damage from Orcs.

    Or +1% damage to Orcs.

     

    This type of reward would be neglegable in the grand scheme of things, but would be a reward non-the-less, and would encourage exploration.

    • 2886 posts
    February 26, 2018 2:16 PM PST

    Bonechip said:

    I agree with most above. 

     

    Saying that, a neat bonus for exploring the majority of a zone could be to reward the player with a tiny edge on that zone's mobs.

     

    Something like -1% damage from Orcs.

    Or +1% damage to Orcs.

     

    This type of reward would be neglegable in the grand scheme of things, but would be a reward non-the-less, and would encourage exploration.

    I still feel like that would come across as artificial. Using your example, with such a focus on immersion, I think most people would prefer to gain that type of bonus by spending an extraordinary amount of time actually killing orcs. That way it feels like you have so much practice against orcs, you have learned where the weak spots are in their armor or how to better defend their attacks, rather than... I visited a bunch of landmarks and suddenly I'm better at killing orcs. When I approach game design, I prefer natural simplicity. My mantra is: "Don't add a feature to a game because you think it would be cool; add a feature only if the game can't live without it." The Perception system should be all the game needs to encourage exploration. I don't see a point in adding bonuses just for the sake of adding bonuses. That's only risks muddying things up.

    • 1714 posts
    February 26, 2018 2:40 PM PST

    Kaylis said:

    Just a thought here. How do the devs feel about giving players a small amount of xp for exploing zones and or to fully explore every aspect of the map? I know this night be hard to do with a open world. I just subscribed so I might be a bit late on this discussion, but if there were achievemnents put in at launch or post launch maybe use this to have more motivation to clear every inch of Terminus.

     

    I think they should provide content worth exploring that is in and of itself the reward. In a perfect world, the game would not need incentives like this. You would find cool things, even if they are only visual, but also rare lore, mobs, treasure, quests, etc, that would encourage you to explore even those places that did not yield a tangible "reward". Adding an exp reward smacks of "we have to pay you to explore because it isn't worth it otherwise", and if that's the case then no amount of exp reward will fix the underlying issue. 

    • 217 posts
    February 26, 2018 7:27 PM PST

    First I disagree with exploration xp gains.

     

    Exploration IS adventure

    Adventure is all about "Wonder Feeding".

    Feed my wonder and my wonder wants more.  "I wonder whats in this cave, I wonder whats over that hill, I wonder whats in the water, etc."  Personally I am meticulous about exploring every nook and cranny in a zone to see what hidden gems there may be.

    One thing I do love, that some may not as stated above, is the DING... it may be immersion breaking for some but i get such a tickle from that level gaining gong, that its an easy over look in the immersion breaking field.

     

    • 690 posts
    February 27, 2018 6:13 AM PST

    There's a lot of folks out there who want to be able to gain experience from doing things that don't directly relate to battle. Exploration xp, while it shouldn't be the only method to accomplish this, could definately help. I don't see a particular reason to not give these exp rewards.

    As long as they are not ridiculously large gains, exploration XP bonuses won't get in the way of content. It even makes sense that you would become more capable as you explore new areas.

    If exploration is difficult and rewarding, then that in itself should be a reason to also award players experience for managing to explore. Think of it as an accomplishment along the same lines as killing some monster.

    To put it another way, giving experience for exploration does not mean that exploration is otherwise boring and pointless. This is similar to the idea that fighting enemies should not feel boring and pointless, even if you don't get XP from kills.

    If there are players who want to level up without fighting as much as the typical player, than I see no reason why we should not include their interests in Pantheon whenever it is easy and low risk (to the tenets and community) to do so. 


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at February 27, 2018 6:55 AM PST
    • 3852 posts
    February 27, 2018 7:23 AM PST

    I generally agree with the consensus here.

    Giving experience foir exploring doesn't really encourage it unless the amounts are large. Giving titles for visiting every significant area would be better, but if people want to explore it isn't necessary and if people DON'T want to explore I see no reason to push them.

    If we want a useful reward as distinct from a title I would vote for using reputation. A LOTRO type system where if you see enough parts of an area or do enough trhings for the locals you become "known" or "a friend" or "an ally" and get minor benefits like a discount with local merchants wouldn't break immersion the way "DING DONG 50XP for finding the Tower of Charm" would.

    • 191 posts
    February 27, 2018 7:40 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    ...you become "known" or "a friend" or "an ally" and get minor benefits...

    Stop trying to design every experience.  We've already got the perception system, the combat system, the crafting system, and - presumably - a faction/reputation system.  The gameplay loop that you describe emerges naturally out of the interaction between those systems.  It doesn't need to be designed.

    • 3852 posts
    February 27, 2018 5:17 PM PST

    ((We've already got the perception system, the combat system, the crafting system, and - presumably - a faction/reputation system. ))

     

    Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting a new system I was discussing what they might, or might not, do with the faction/reputation system.

    • 1714 posts
    February 27, 2018 6:48 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    I generally agree with the consensus here.

    Giving experience foir exploring doesn't really encourage it unless the amounts are large. Giving titles for visiting every significant area would be better, but if people want to explore it isn't necessary and if people DON'T want to explore I see no reason to push them.

    If we want a useful reward as distinct from a title I would vote for using reputation. A LOTRO type system where if you see enough parts of an area or do enough trhings for the locals you become "known" or "a friend" or "an ally" and get minor benefits like a discount with local merchants wouldn't break immersion the way "DING DONG 50XP for finding the Tower of Charm" would.

     

    A better reward is the power that comes with the knowledge of an area that is reaped when you play the game better than someone else. 

    • 239 posts
    March 12, 2018 10:37 AM PDT
    Seem I am the minority here. But I think they should put something in for exploring and not to get off topic but nomadic killing and xping.
    To put it bluntly everyone is talking about exploring the game and learning it. I'm thinking about character number 2... Number 3... Number 4 when you have seen this orc camp 10th times.
    No one here going to play through game once and hang it up. And that second toon should get the benefits to going to this zone and moving around, and not all run to the camp that can be broken easy and grind xp for the day.
    Forgot what gamr it was that did a small xp bonus the longer the mob stayed alive to help with the idea of moving and not killing once it spawns. I know this is a little different then the OP. But I am saying the added feature to explore and move would not hurt.
    • 1714 posts
    March 12, 2018 9:11 PM PDT

    SoWplz said: Seem I am the minority here. But I think they should put something in for exploring and not to get off topic but nomadic killing and xping. To put it bluntly everyone is talking about exploring the game and learning it. I'm thinking about character number 2... Number 3... Number 4 when you have seen this orc camp 10th times. No one here going to play through game once and hang it up. And that second toon should get the benefits to going to this zone and moving around, and not all run to the camp that can be broken easy and grind xp for the day. Forgot what gamr it was that did a small xp bonus the longer the mob stayed alive to help with the idea of moving and not killing once it spawns. I know this is a little different then the OP. But I am saying the added feature to explore and move would not hurt.

    It's super fake, unnecessary, hand holding. 

    • 2756 posts
    March 13, 2018 4:08 AM PDT

    Whilst I don't really want the whole "BING! You've reached The Trees of Wonder! Have 100XP" (it's a bit fake and immersion breaking) what we *are* going to have is every Perception location and grinding camp mapped in the Wiki after 1 day and people just moving to and between them.

    I would like to see *some* in-game encouragement to explore naturally and, yes, some kind of percentage exploration achievement or whatever could do that.

    It doesn't have to be as unsubtle and hand-holdy as a list of locations and a tick mark as you visit them. It certainly doesn't have to involve big question marks on the map and a BONG when you visit it.

    It could be much more subtle and positive to the experience.

    I'd like to see a rudimentary map of each region - as olde worlde as you like - that maybe colours in and adds landmarks in perception range as you visit them. It would be an indicator for each character you have of whether or not you've at least covered all the ground there is to cover. I hate the feeling I might have 'missed something' and, with the best will in the world, you can't just keep wandering around one area forever just in case.

    I don't want to start another maps debate - there's a whole other thread for that - but this exploration issue is linked and is another example to me of something that some people 'don't want' but will be in a Wiki on day 2, so IMHO a version that is dev designed so is controlled, limited, nicely themed with in-keeping lore/artwork etc is vastly preferable.

    I don't have to go to the Wiki? Sure. You don't have to look at the in-game map, either.

    • 690 posts
    March 13, 2018 5:45 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    It's super fake, unnecessary, hand holding. 

    Fake? I feel like terrain knowledge does, in fact, make you more capable in general combat. Particularly when that knowledge comes from the difficult sort of exploration we will likely encounter in Pantheon. 

    Unnecessary? Granting players rewards for killing fun and difficult monsters probably won't smack as giving players rewards to explore otherwise bad content. Killing these monsters certainly won't feel unnecessary, because it makes sense that you would get stronger from killing those monsters, and that players want their characters to get stronger.  I don't see why this can't be true for exploration. Experience is icing on a cake that still tastes great.

    Hand holding? Just how much experience do you see them giving you for entering a new dungeon? Even in big hand holding titles like WoW, you don't get very far leveling from just exploration xp bonuses. In addition, if exploration is truly difficult, then I don't see how it is handholding to reward players for doing it (just like it's not hand holding to give xp for killing difficult monsters).

    So yea, if exploration in Pantheon is boring as crap and requires no effort whatseover, even to players who don't have any help, then sure, no xp bonuses for exploration. But honestly, I really don't think VR is going to fail us quite that hard.

     


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at March 13, 2018 6:06 AM PDT
    • 107 posts
    March 13, 2018 7:03 AM PDT
    What if you added it to the perception system. You find a weird riddle that describes a place in a cryptic message. Make the number of potential cryptic messages very high but when you find the spot you spawn something rare or find treasure. Similar to what you wanted but maybe in more of a Pantheon way.
    • 69 posts
    March 13, 2018 7:18 AM PDT
    I think getting xp for exploring is a good thing. The perception system might further encourage it.

    I just don't think it needs to be as in your face for that endorphin hit. It breaks immersion. I also don't think they need to provide you the names on the hud for every location. Let people figure it out organically through the game itself... signpodts, n0c dialogue, etc. If a location doesn't have a name, the players will figure one out. One thing I loved about old mmos is how the community organically developed landmarks and whatnot.