Forums » Crafting

Finding Recipes

    • 1545 posts
    December 2, 2017 9:58 AM PST

    Finding recipes in MMORPGs is a pretty boring experience normally. You either get them from levelling up or by doing some really boring quests. Some games try to take it a bit further but how can the process be made a bit more engaging?

    I wrote a little article on the subject which I posted on Pantheon Crafters. I'd like to hear some feedback on the subject as I feel like this is an area that is ripe for adding more depth to crafting in Pantheon.

    https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/resources/finding-recipes.10/

    • 326 posts
    December 2, 2017 10:22 AM PST

    I agree there should be various ways to gain recipies.
    not just by level, quest or experimentation; but also by (devine?) inspiration (be that at the crafting site or in the field)


    This post was edited by Rydan at December 2, 2017 10:28 AM PST
    • 1545 posts
    December 2, 2017 10:32 AM PST

    Hang on a sec everyone. Just fixing forum permissions so people can actually read it.

    Edit: Permissions should work now. Slowly enabling access for all on all content.


    This post was edited by Cromulent at December 2, 2017 10:40 AM PST
    • 1530 posts
    December 2, 2017 10:34 AM PST

    Looks great Crom.  I need some time to digest everything you wrote (and coffee) before I trust myself to give you a quality response, but I will try to come back to it this weekened and do that for you :)  At first glance, I think you nailed most of what I would want to see, but I also think that there's some things that could be added :)

    • 1545 posts
    December 2, 2017 10:52 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    Looks great Crom.  I need some time to digest everything you wrote (and coffee) before I trust myself to give you a quality response, but I will try to come back to it this weekened and do that for you :)  At first glance, I think you nailed most of what I would want to see, but I also think that there's some things that could be added :)

    Awesome :). I look forward to it.

    • 1 posts
    December 2, 2017 5:25 PM PST

    Hey there,  I just wanted to say that I really appreciated the ideas that Cromulent proposed.  I also feel like learning new recipes exlusively from leveling up has, in most cases, ruined the crafting experience for me in most of the recent mmos that I have played.  I would love to see the rare, and exotic drops to come from NPCs and perhaps some harder quest chains.  I imagine that most people would feel a lot more emersion if they had to go out and find specific recipes, or certain crafters that you know have already attained the recipe.  What do you guys think of having some sort of modifier depending on a recipe. For instance, lets say that a normal progression and leveling for blacksmiths includes Iron swords.  Blueprints (or something of that nature) could drop off of certain mobs, that when in your inventory, allow you to craft "Pristine Iron swords" instead.  I dunno i'm just kinda spit balling.  Anyway, thanks for putting in your work!  :)

    • 1545 posts
    December 2, 2017 6:07 PM PST

    Rufeo said:

    Hey there,  I just wanted to say that I really appreciated the ideas that Cromulent proposed.  I also feel like learning new recipes exlusively from leveling up has, in most cases, ruined the crafting experience for me in most of the recent mmos that I have played.  I would love to see the rare, and exotic drops to come from NPCs and perhaps some harder quest chains.  I imagine that most people would feel a lot more emersion if they had to go out and find specific recipes, or certain crafters that you know have already attained the recipe.  What do you guys think of having some sort of modifier depending on a recipe. For instance, lets say that a normal progression and leveling for blacksmiths includes Iron swords.  Blueprints (or something of that nature) could drop off of certain mobs, that when in your inventory, allow you to craft "Pristine Iron swords" instead.  I dunno i'm just kinda spit balling.  Anyway, thanks for putting in your work!  :)

    How about this for an option?

    We all know that Pantheon is going to have a mentoring system for adventuring but what if that system also worked with crafting? Say you are a low level crafter perhaps you could work with a high level crafter and get a chance to learn some new recipes from watching the high level crafter work? That way people could learn rare recipes from advanced crafters without everyone having to camp rare mobs or spend ages completing really long quest chains.

    Of course the high level crafter would be free to charge for this service so the players who do actually camp rare mobs or complete hard quest chains do get a really good reward but players who'd rather not put in that amount of effort can by pass it somewhat by paying another high level crafter who has put in the work.

    • 1852 posts
    December 2, 2017 7:03 PM PST

    Crafter mentoring would be fantastic. Much expanded use of of a system already planned.

    • 3341 posts
    December 3, 2017 7:33 AM PST

    I would support something like that!  Great idea Crom.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at December 3, 2017 7:33 AM PST
    • 326 posts
    December 3, 2017 8:03 AM PST

    a Grouping concept for crafters was sugested in another thread. Ofcourse an 'apprenticeship' would be more realistic; the more so when crafters get to master only 1

    • 1530 posts
    December 3, 2017 2:48 PM PST

    As promised, I replied in the thread on Pantheon Crafters.  Pasting that reply here too to encourage discussion :)

    First, overall I like the way you laid things out and so really I just want to add some concepts that I think/hope will be represented in Pantheon's crafting system. To make that easy, I'm going to try to use a consistent example of a blacksmith working on making weapons such as daggers and swords, to walk through the different methods of recipe acquisition. Please note: This is going to go a little outside of just the recipes themselves.

    So, my example implementation:
    Starting out as a Blacksmith, I automagically know how to make a Basic Dagger. The Basic Dagger is a simple recipe that only needs a few classes of material components - a lump of metal (for the blade) and a wood/bone material for the hilt. Both are easily enough found near where I learned to be a blacksmith in general. While the quality of the materials used will impact the stats of the weapon, ultimately, they're all very similar (a dagger is a dagger is a dagger. Coldark steel daggers just hold their edge a little better than iron ones)

    As I make my first few daggers, I start to get better at it to where it becomes automatic. This also means however that I get less advancement from each consecutive dagger in a diminishing returns formula (tieing into something else from my post here). Let's say that the experience/skill gain goes away entirely after the 10th basic dagger that I've made (I have learned all I can from making daggers).

    Along the way, I have automagically learned the recipe for a basic sword. It's a little more complex than a dagger, but it uses the same concepts. (Recipe unlock by leveling/skillup)

    However, let's say there's a market for daggers, and so I keep making daggers even past the point where they're giving me experience. As I make more and more daggers, there's a chance that I might unlock a recipe for an "advanced dagger". This more complex recipe results in a superior dagger than the basic one, but is more complex in terms of material requirements. For the sake of example, let's say that this recipe is a 2% chance on every dagger I make, once I've gotten to the point where daggers no longer give me experience. (Recipe acquisition through skill/inspiration)

    Awesome, I can now make advanced daggers (if I can get the extra materials). Yay me! But wait... one of those materials is a gemstone that can grant special properties to the finished item. Those things are rare, and drop from monsters in dungeons, and the effects can be somewhat random. Some gemstones add bane bonuses, others impact weight, damage, or other stats, and the really rare ones might add elemental or other effects. The new recipe I learned can use the most basic kinds of gemstones - to use more advanced gemstones, I would need to learn some kind of legendary recipe. (specialization through materials)

    As I make advanced daggers, I unlock more specialized and unique versions of them through the same method as before (mastery/inspiration). This enables me to eventually make everything from stilettos with an innate bonus against armor, to parrying daggers which offer defensive benefits. They're not really more powerful than the normal advanced daggers I can make, but they're more specialized.

    Anyway, I continue on my blacksmith career for some time. Along the way, I learn about an old master swordsmith who lives in a remote part of the world. I pay him a visit and he won't talk to me, but his daughter says that to earn his respect, I need to fashion a masterwork level item and present it to him. Masterworks themselves come from special recipes that must be "researched" by breaking down high-quality looted items of the same type, and use exotic materials and advanced gemstones that are more difficult to obtain. Needless to say, the act of acquiring a masterwork recipe in itself is a challenge that takes time and potentially lots of money (recipe acquisition via researching/item destruction).

    I decide that I really want to see what this swordsmith will teach me, however, so I put in the time to learn how to make a masterwork. As luck would have it, I learn how to make masterwork axes first, just because those were the drops I was able to break down and analyze most quickly. If I wanted to put the time in, I could eventually learn masterwork versions of all the various weapon types.

    Masterworks being what they are, just because I have the recipe doesn't mean I can make the item. I still need the exotic materials the recipe calls for, *and* I need some pretty advanced tools to do it - that basic anvil in the town square is not going to do the job for something like this. But I persevere and over the course of further adventures, I eventually create a masterwork axe. My warrior buddy looks at it and flat out offers me 300 platinum for it, because it's just that cool.

    Now I have a choice - I could sell the axe to my warrior friend, and try to go get all the materials again to make another one, which might take weeks. Or, I could take that axe I have and give it to the swordsmith and see what he teaches me. Because I really want to know the secrets of the swordsmith, I go ahead and deliver the axe to him instead. The swordsmith gives me a choice: He will teach me a recipe for a single legendary weapon of my choice - it could be a sword, a dagger, an axe, a mace, or any other weapon type I would normally make. However, he will only teach me one of these secret techniques. (Recipe acquisition via quest)

    I choose to learn how to make legendary swords - because, swords are cool. I could just as easily have chosen to learn about daggers, axes, scythes, or whatever. As a result I gain a really complicated recipe that makes masterworks look easy in terms of its requirements, but produces something that can truly be called legendary at the end.

    Time goes on, and I cement my reputation as a blacksmith of some renown. I make several more masterworks and a couple of legendary weapons for people, and life is good. Then one day, I'm on a raid, and we kill the ancient shadowbeast of doom after a long fight. In its treasure pile, there's an untradable scroll, with the single requirement on it: Blacksmith skill 250. (recipe acquisition via drop)

    Deciphering this scroll means learning the language it's written in, which is a mini-quest in its own right. But once I've traveled half the world to learn that language, I'm able to use that scroll to learn a recipe - possible the most complex recipe I've ever seen. Not only does it need exotic materials, most of which come from raids, but it needs special components created by other specialist crafters as well. And to make matters even more interesting... it's a one-shot recipe as the scroll itself is magical and will be used up when I craft the final item. If I wanted to make another one after the first, I'd have to somehow acquire another scroll with the same recipe. The result, however, is a named weapon of immense power, the sort of thing that due to its rarity is nearly unique. And honestly, combined with the super-rare drop rate of the scroll, this might be the only weapon of this caliber that I craft for months.


    This post was edited by Nephele at December 3, 2017 2:49 PM PST
    • 1545 posts
    December 4, 2017 5:46 AM PST

    I just realised I forgot to post my reply here as well.

    I love the ideas.

    One thing I'm very keen on is that crafters should be seen as being a totally unique sphere like in Vanguard. I certainly want rare crafting material to come from hard group and raid content but perhaps a crafter has spent so much time perfecting their skill at crafting that they haven't had the time to level up their adventuring sphere. This does mean there is a little problem. In games like EverQuest most of the high end items were NO DROP which was a shame.

    I'd like to see more items be tradable because bringing along a low level adventurer (who happened to be a high skill crafter) on that legendary raid would be a liability. Perhaps then players who raid would be able to beat raid bosses and hard single group content and discover items that they are not sure of their purpose.

    The only way to find out what that magic scroll is for is to take it to a scribe who can then work on it for a time until finally they figure out its meaning. This then tells the player what type of crafter can then use that scroll. Only then can the player who took part in the raid can take it to someone who can actually turn it into a usable item.

    Of course a legendary item like that would require the work from multiple high level crafters of different crafting classes to produce all the ingredients needed for that recipe and some of those ingredients would require items that drop in raids or hard single group content. By working together as a team these crafters can then produce something that is truly unique.

    Each crafter would have to go through the whole process of mastering certain items. Perhaps there are only a few crafters with enough skill on each server to create these powerful items but they got there because they spent hours and hours perfecting their craft. Thus high end raid guilds would have to ensure that not only would they require a powerful raid force but they would require a group of powerful crafters as well to turn the raid drops into items of amazing power?

    I've gone a bit off-topic with this but you made me think of this. I'd like to see crafters become a community of their own on the servers that they play on which means that they know which crafters can do what so that if they need their services they know who to ask.

    • 164 posts
    December 4, 2017 10:19 AM PST

    I too like the idea of multiple ways of gaining recipes. Basic recipes such as refining ores should be as simple as visiting your tradeskill master, maybe a simple quest for him as proof of your sincerity pursuing your profession. More advanced recipes would be obtained via methods advanced by those posting above me. Deconstruction, questing, dumb luck stumbling upon a recipe on a corpse while exploring all have a place in my opinion.

    I also want crafting to be more self sufficient, or on more of an equal footing with adventuring, as opposed to relying on it. I tend to craft as much as adventure, and find both enjoyable. The realm of raiding however has never been a big draw for me, probably because of the leisurely pace I play at, by the time I'm max level raiding is no longer fresh but the targets are well fleshed out and now it's just a job, "cast this spell at this time" and such, probably quite exciting early on, but by the time I get to raiding it feels like a job... anyway enough of that tanget. I never expect to make everything, nor experience everything the game has to offer, it's a big place after all, but I don't want to be forced to raid to get the highest level materials. Can you imagine the wailing if you told raiders they must become master crafters? Some items sure, but not all via raiding, even if tradeable. Surely there must be a way for a crafter to learn/obtain their highest level without raiding? Perhaps deconstructing very high level items, the kind that makes you ponder a good long time before you deconstruct such a fine item. I'm just asking for crafters to sometimes have a path available for them solely thgrough crafting...

    • 1558 posts
    December 5, 2017 1:05 PM PST

    Just 2 cents on this topic:

    I would like to see this coincide with crafing on the fly. By that I mean, you are in a group hunting such-and-so and along the way you get Hides, rusty swords, ore samples. being able to make bag space by using these items on the fly with a portable smithy or sewing kit by combining them would be awesome. This would also encourage experimentation while grouping as well as encourage people who dont usually craft, to maybe try a smidgen if they can make bag space by combining items on the fly. The only drawback is those items have to drop (chain-mail for research! *shakes fist*)

    One word on experimentation- that it is intuitive or intuitive as it relates to a bit of lore or rumor that was heard. Intuitive = Hide+ needle+ thread+ (learned pattern) = something. learned pattern is not needed for combine but rather learned through books or exploring. if you leant more than one wristband, you choose which one you want ot use in crafting menu). But Hide + taning agent+thread = something else. Intuitive as it pertains to lore I mean: "he said the blade was tempered with the poison of a snake!" So when you go out, maybe you use that snake poison gland to temper whatever metal you come across- and then when you "get" that- to try tempering with a skunk scent gland!- if THAT combination created something unique, that would be wierd and funny enough to encourage more experimentation and help imbue the crafting"bug".

     

     

    • 326 posts
    December 5, 2017 4:06 PM PST

    Manouk said:
    Just 2 cents on this topic:
    ...
    ...THAT combination created something unique, that would be wierd and funny enough to encourage more experimentation and help imbue the crafting"bug".

    Why not.. put in some random funnyness on "fail"
    for example: Hide+ needle+ thread+ boot learned pattern = Fail + Bunny Slippers

    • 1545 posts
    December 6, 2017 5:11 AM PST

    Chimerical said:

    I too like the idea of multiple ways of gaining recipes. Basic recipes such as refining ores should be as simple as visiting your tradeskill master, maybe a simple quest for him as proof of your sincerity pursuing your profession. More advanced recipes would be obtained via methods advanced by those posting above me. Deconstruction, questing, dumb luck stumbling upon a recipe on a corpse while exploring all have a place in my opinion.

    I also want crafting to be more self sufficient, or on more of an equal footing with adventuring, as opposed to relying on it. I tend to craft as much as adventure, and find both enjoyable. The realm of raiding however has never been a big draw for me, probably because of the leisurely pace I play at, by the time I'm max level raiding is no longer fresh but the targets are well fleshed out and now it's just a job, "cast this spell at this time" and such, probably quite exciting early on, but by the time I get to raiding it feels like a job... anyway enough of that tanget. I never expect to make everything, nor experience everything the game has to offer, it's a big place after all, but I don't want to be forced to raid to get the highest level materials. Can you imagine the wailing if you told raiders they must become master crafters? Some items sure, but not all via raiding, even if tradeable. Surely there must be a way for a crafter to learn/obtain their highest level without raiding? Perhaps deconstructing very high level items, the kind that makes you ponder a good long time before you deconstruct such a fine item. I'm just asking for crafters to sometimes have a path available for them solely thgrough crafting...

    How about having crafting raids? Let me explain.

    So in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes if you cut down a tree you got X resources but if a group of you cut down a tree you got Y resources.

    How about having the highest level crafting ingredients require the use of a "raid" of crafters. One crafter would do something to an item, followed by another and another and another and so on until you got the required item.

    I think everyone will agree that the highest level items should be hard to get but that doesn't mean you need to be a raider. It could quite easily be that having say 12 or so crafters working on a certain item could result in the same outcome and would satisfy those people who don't really want to raid against PvE targets.

    The more crafters working on a certain item the better it gets.

    • 1545 posts
    December 6, 2017 5:15 AM PST

    Manouk said:

    Just 2 cents on this topic:

    I would like to see this coincide with crafing on the fly. By that I mean, you are in a group hunting such-and-so and along the way you get Hides, rusty swords, ore samples. being able to make bag space by using these items on the fly with a portable smithy or sewing kit by combining them would be awesome. This would also encourage experimentation while grouping as well as encourage people who dont usually craft, to maybe try a smidgen if they can make bag space by combining items on the fly. The only drawback is those items have to drop (chain-mail for research! *shakes fist*)

    One word on experimentation- that it is intuitive or intuitive as it relates to a bit of lore or rumor that was heard. Intuitive = Hide+ needle+ thread+ (learned pattern) = something. learned pattern is not needed for combine but rather learned through books or exploring. if you leant more than one wristband, you choose which one you want ot use in crafting menu). But Hide + taning agent+thread = something else. Intuitive as it pertains to lore I mean: "he said the blade was tempered with the poison of a snake!" So when you go out, maybe you use that snake poison gland to temper whatever metal you come across- and then when you "get" that- to try tempering with a skunk scent gland!- if THAT combination created something unique, that would be wierd and funny enough to encourage more experimentation and help imbue the crafting"bug".

    I've always liked the idea of experimentation in crafting and I agree that crafting "on the go" would be pretty awesome. But perhaps you would get slightly better results if you used a full sized smithy compared to a portable one? That way you could make the item right now and get a reasonable item or you could wait till you get back to town and get a great item?