Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Mounts and Travel

    • 48 posts
    August 5, 2017 10:41 PM PDT

    I was bored and reading the forums today and a thought occurred to me and I wanted to see if others had some of the same frustrations I do with mounts in current MMOs. I dislike and wholey disdain many current systems in place that force you to travel through "choke" points with mobs standing guard only to be knocked off your mount and "dazed" then be forced to kill the monsters or just create a "train" forward. More importantly soloing will be very difficult so in the system of pantheon I am hoping they do have safe ways to travel through the lands to get from point A to point B without running through endless camps of mobs. 

    Does anyone else share in my frustration? I enjoy a challenge such as kithicore and places I know I need to stay away from both in reputation and personal experience, however I do not want to constanting be dodging mobs so I can be dazed or knocked off my mount in order to confront a threat. Especially in current MMOs the threat isnt very threatening or rewarding to engage both via exp or loot. Sorry late nite rant that came to mind. Please feel free to share your thoughts!


    This post was edited by Borumber at August 5, 2017 10:42 PM PDT
    • 338 posts
    August 6, 2017 4:30 AM PDT

    Absolutely disagree with the OP...

     

    Bottleneck zones are important and a lot of great gaming moments are created from forcing players through these areas.

     

    Getting rid of everything you don't like or felt was inconvenient is what has ruined modern MMO.

     

    Frustration can be a good thing if you use it as motivation to progress.

     

    If you like using mounts to bypass content then you might as well just have flying mounts and deal with all the problems that creates.

     

    The only way you can keep the game world dangerous is to make sure that fast travel doesn't skip content. Players shouldn't be able to just go wherever they want whenever they want to.

     

    One of my fondest memories from EQ1 was the first trip from Qeynos to Freeport and getting bottlenecked at Highpass Hold. There was about 10 of us trying to make the trip and we all trained through the pass with only 3 of us making it to the other side... /whew that was exciting.

     

     

    Thanks in advance,

    Kiz~

    • 409 posts
    August 6, 2017 5:22 AM PDT

    deleted


    This post was edited by Nimryl at August 23, 2017 7:39 AM PDT
    • 483 posts
    August 6, 2017 5:36 AM PDT

    I don't believe mounts will be common when you're low level, and when you reach a high level and finally get a mount the other mobs will not aggro because they're to low level, so for most of the traveling you'll not encounter high level mobs that will aggro follow you.

    As for "choke points" I like them, it makes the world feel dangerous, if you're in enemy territory it makes no sense that you can just pass trough without any type of danger.

    • 363 posts
    August 6, 2017 5:40 AM PDT

    While I can appreciate the frustration that some players might feel on the subject, I have to say that I am all for bottleneck zones, for reasons others have already mentioned.

    • 189 posts
    August 6, 2017 5:44 AM PDT

    I think those bottlenecks are also there so lowbies aren't passing through into dangerous territory they really have no business being in. AKA people trying to power level lowbies by bringing them to higher level mobs. Or maybe even multi-boxing. 1 guy using his main to bring his alt account through and level or give him easy gear drop. Kinda defeats the purpose of releveling an alt character the way you did your main if you get to just skip zones.

    And as stated above, they don't want people skipping zones unless they are fully able. If you can't afford to get knocked off your mount by these mobs, you're not cut out for them yet.

    It is totally annoying at times, I'm with you there, but it also adds to the adventure. If people can just travel without worry of higher level mobs, groups of mobs guarding certain entrances to areas, it's less adventurous. People attempt to get past these guards no matter what! Just to be able to see a zone or area and look in awe at it's creation. Especially with the screenshots I've seen from VR lately, I would definitely be in that pool of people. It just adds to the experience of adventuring about and exploring the world!

    Imagine little lowbies excited about this awesome and difficult dungeon with massive loot they've been hearing about. "Let's go see the entrance!" So now you have a group of little lowbies who just aren't quite there yet, that just want to be able to see the entrance to this dungeon or raid instance. And it's not just one guy, it's a whole group or maybe even a raid. As you get higher level you have the same idea for raid instances or high end content zones. I get giddy just thinking about what adventures I may find myself within Pantheon. I hope it can replicate the feel and nostalgia I had in previous games. Other MMO's just aren't quite cutting it.

    P.S. I believe they mentioned boats. I don't know what sea creatures/monsters they might add into the waters that may or may not cause harm to your boat. But if theres an area near the ocean, you might be able to use that to get around and get a good look. But it only takes you AROUND the land mass, not through! So you're still stuck traveling by mount, but you might find a better path on the other side of the massive island.

    • 3237 posts
    August 6, 2017 8:24 AM PDT

    I agree with Angrykiz.  I like choke points ... and even moreso, seeing people get knocked off their mount when they get attacked.  FFXI pulled this off perfectly.

    • 189 posts
    August 6, 2017 9:22 AM PDT
    Angrykiz +2
    • 1095 posts
    August 6, 2017 12:29 PM PDT

    even John Snow got knocked off his horse...

     

    but yeah those areas are what gets the blood pumping when you know you have to make it through to get to an area


    This post was edited by Aich at August 6, 2017 12:56 PM PDT
    • 724 posts
    August 6, 2017 1:09 PM PDT

    I think it also depends on the repetition factor. If you're passing through an area once or only very few times, it's fine if there are chokepoints which force to actually fight your way through. If you have to do it repeatedly though, it can get old quickly.

    I guess we all have experienced areas with poorly designed quests that force you to fight through an area over and over (get quest, do first part, run back to turn in, get next part which requires you to go to the same area, ...). And in those cases the mobs (which are often respawns) are just annoying, and I will also try whatever I can to avoid them. But then, this may not be a thing in Pantheon since it won't be quest-driven as other current MMOs. So there won't be a need to repeatedly run between areas, unless you WANT to do it.

    • 125 posts
    August 6, 2017 1:51 PM PDT

    Annoying yes... but I do apprecaite them being there for all the reasons mentioned above.

    • 281 posts
    August 6, 2017 7:49 PM PDT

    I agree with the vast majority of the replies.

    The only thing I might insert here is that I don't like it when games make the dismount mechanic silly, like I have my level 50 Paladin riding on his Unicorn of Power about one foot off the floor and a level 2 goblin tosses a pebble at me and I fall off and all the mobs have ranged attacks and riding anywhere but a town is an act of frustration.

    In other words, balance it out.  While we probably dont' need the things were in upper Guk were if the mobs were grey, you could walk as if you were invisible, but at the same time lets not have .05 points of damage dismount you either (not that you should be riding a horse in Guk.  I was just referring to the extreme "no agro" if they were grey to you.).

    • 17 posts
    August 7, 2017 12:49 AM PDT

    DragonFist said:

    The only thing I might insert here is that I don't like it when games make the dismount mechanic silly, like I have my level 50 Paladin riding on his Unicorn of Power about one foot off the floor and a level 2 goblin tosses a pebble at me and I fall off and all the mobs have ranged attacks and riding anywhere but a town is an act of frustration.

    In other words, balance it out.  While we probably dont' need the things were in upper Guk were if the mobs were grey, you could walk as if you were invisible, but at the same time lets not have .05 points of damage dismount you either (not that you should be riding a horse in Guk.  I was just referring to the extreme "no agro" if they were grey to you.).

     

    Ya this sort of thing always annoyed me. Perhaps some sort of ride check health bar  behind the sences based off how much damage you take before you are dismounted. 

    • 793 posts
    August 7, 2017 5:19 AM PDT

    Bottlenecks to help seperate content yes, but I also want to be able to ride through the forest OFF the path. The otherside to that is I want forest areas so thick you can only travle through on foot, and at a reduced pace.

    EQ1, Kitichor forest was feared by most all younglings early on at night (For the higher level mobs that came out at night), but even though it was scary, there was often enough space between trees to drive a semi-truck through the zone in any random path. Which this also leads to the much discused topic of drak being dark. :)

    Well worn paths are good, and should provide some security as one would expect it to be traveled by others, but yet bandits would also know this, and use it to their advantage.

     

    • 1399 posts
    August 7, 2017 5:34 AM PDT

    DuckofDeath said:

    DragonFist said:

    The only thing I might insert here is that I don't like it when games make the dismount mechanic silly, like I have my level 50 Paladin riding on his Unicorn of Power about one foot off the floor and a level 2 goblin tosses a pebble at me and I fall off and all the mobs have ranged attacks and riding anywhere but a town is an act of frustration.

    In other words, balance it out.  While we probably dont' need the things were in upper Guk were if the mobs were grey, you could walk as if you were invisible, but at the same time lets not have .05 points of damage dismount you either (not that you should be riding a horse in Guk.  I was just referring to the extreme "no agro" if they were grey to you.).

     

    Ya this sort of thing always annoyed me. Perhaps some sort of ride check health bar  behind the sences based off how much damage you take before you are dismounted. 

    I disagree, there should always be a chance that a glancing blow to a hoof or head of the mount could trip it up throwing the rider with little or no damage to the rider.

    Edit: Come to think of it, getting knocked off a mount and not taking damage does sound unlikely. The player should take a 5-10% fall damage hit just for being knocked off the mount. Maybe safe fall could mitigate some of that for appropriate classes.

    Edit #2: I would think adding a Tumble Animation would be proper as well.... the simple "Mount Disappears and now your running" thing is pretty cheesy.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at August 7, 2017 7:35 PM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    August 7, 2017 7:07 AM PDT

    I *like* the approach of having "gray" mobs well below you in level cowering in fear so that you can enjoy much lower areas in relative peace. It is one of the perks of getting to a high level.

    Plus to me this is "old school" its how i remember it being when I started MUDs/MMOs.

     

    • 2752 posts
    August 7, 2017 9:47 AM PDT

    I like bottleneck and choke points here and there and I am very much in favor of mounts NOT being a powerful tool to bypass content. That said I think getting dazed and such while on the mount is kind of lame and being dismounted is a better option. Ideally there should be specific mob types that can easily 1-shot dismount players, likely near gates and entrances to places much like sentries that can see invis. Other than that I think having a very limited mount hp pool that will auto dismount the player when depleted is a good idea, especially if the player takes 5-10% max hp in damage when being dismounted in such a way so that the player has to weigh risk vs reward when trying to pull off a run through a dangerous bottleneck. 

    • 769 posts
    August 7, 2017 10:33 AM PDT

    Gonna have to agree with most of the other replies as to the importance of choke points.

    I do, however, think that there are opportunities to make those kinds of areas more interesting. Highpass Hold, as someone mentioned, was a great step. The simple fact that your only two real options were to either go through HHP, or the Beholders Maze (that's the name, right?) gave a delicious sense of danger, but with options. I like options.

    Thinking back on my LOTRO days and riding around on my stupid horse, it WAS a pain to be knocked off my horse by mobs that weren't any danger or offered any sort of challenge. I think that might be what the OP is referring to, or something along those lines. I don't want situations to be there purely for the sake of annoyance. If the mobs are gray, they should be cowering in fear, not attempting to knock me off my stupid horse - or at least, allow the option to have mounts that gain levels/exp/hit points so as to make it a lot harder to knock me off. Lvl 1 horse with a lvl 50 Warden, and of course the horse will run away.

     

     

    • 281 posts
    August 7, 2017 3:55 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    DuckofDeath said:

    DragonFist said:

    The only thing I might insert here is that I don't like it when games make the dismount mechanic silly, like I have my level 50 Paladin riding on his Unicorn of Power about one foot off the floor and a level 2 goblin tosses a pebble at me and I fall off and all the mobs have ranged attacks and riding anywhere but a town is an act of frustration.

    In other words, balance it out.  While we probably dont' need the things were in upper Guk were if the mobs were grey, you could walk as if you were invisible, but at the same time lets not have .05 points of damage dismount you either (not that you should be riding a horse in Guk.  I was just referring to the extreme "no agro" if they were grey to you.).

     

    Ya this sort of thing always annoyed me. Perhaps some sort of ride check health bar  behind the sences based off how much damage you take before you are dismounted. 

    I disagree, there should always be a chance that a glancing blow to a hoof or head of the mount could trip it up throwing the rider with little or no damage to the rider.

    Edit: Come to think of it, getting knocked off a mount and not taking damage does sound unlikely. The player should take a 5-10% fall damage hit just for being knocked off the mount. Maybe safe fall could mitigate some of that for appropriate classes.

     

    My whole point was, and I quote myself, "balance it out".

    There is no need for one's super powerful max level player with the best mount in the game to be knocked off his mount every 2 seconds by mobs that can't even damage him.  But I don't think anything should be a free-ride either.  All I'm saying is balance it out, when the content is trivial to the player passing through, don't make it annoying for sole sake of being annoying.  I don't mind a tripping or two now and then and I don't mind wondering high level mobs sometimes making one's day a bit more challenging (in fact, I kind of like that option.)  But let's not do this just to be an annoying mechanic either.

    • 281 posts
    August 7, 2017 4:06 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    I like bottleneck and choke points here and there and I am very much in favor of mounts NOT being a powerful tool to bypass content. That said I think getting dazed and such while on the mount is kind of lame and being dismounted is a better option. Ideally there should be specific mob types that can easily 1-shot dismount players, likely near gates and entrances to places much like sentries that can see invis. Other than that I think having a very limited mount hp pool that will auto dismount the player when depleted is a good idea, especially if the player takes 5-10% max hp in damage when being dismounted in such a way so that the player has to weigh risk vs reward when trying to pull off a run through a dangerous bottleneck. 

    I'm not in disagreement with any of this.  Especially at choke points.  (my comments earlier are more for open fields, etc.  Though let mobs place traps, etc. there too.  I'm talking about situations, like in one game I played a while ago [not even sure what its name was at the moment] where I was running through and area that was literally in the single digits as to mob level and I was max level and because most of the mobs had ranged attacks, I simply couldn't use my mount.  I could slaughter the entire area travel faster.  It was annoying and not a small part of why I don't play that game anymore.) But by all means, make choke points and, depending on the intended difficulty of the area, you mobs with skills/abilities/attacks that make it really tough to get past without killing the guards.  Even better, use good level design to make so that, with a lot of skill, one can do so in various ways (like stealth games or with a mezzer [make some immune to mez too]).  Anyhow, get inventive and make it challenging but fun to pass these areas.

    • 1399 posts
    August 7, 2017 7:31 PM PDT

    DragonFist said:

    Zorkon said:

    DuckofDeath said:

    DragonFist said:

    The only thing I might insert here is that I don't like it when games make the dismount mechanic silly, like I have my level 50 Paladin riding on his Unicorn of Power about one foot off the floor and a level 2 goblin tosses a pebble at me and I fall off and all the mobs have ranged attacks and riding anywhere but a town is an act of frustration.

    In other words, balance it out.  While we probably dont' need the things were in upper Guk were if the mobs were grey, you could walk as if you were invisible, but at the same time lets not have .05 points of damage dismount you either (not that you should be riding a horse in Guk.  I was just referring to the extreme "no agro" if they were grey to you.).

     

    Ya this sort of thing always annoyed me. Perhaps some sort of ride check health bar  behind the sences based off how much damage you take before you are dismounted. 

    I disagree, there should always be a chance that a glancing blow to a hoof or head of the mount could trip it up throwing the rider with little or no damage to the rider.

    Edit: Come to think of it, getting knocked off a mount and not taking damage does sound unlikely. The player should take a 5-10% fall damage hit just for being knocked off the mount. Maybe safe fall could mitigate some of that for appropriate classes.

     

    My whole point was, and I quote myself, "balance it out".

    There is no need for one's super powerful max level player with the best mount in the game to be knocked off his mount every 2 seconds by mobs that can't even damage him.  But I don't think anything should be a free-ride either.  All I'm saying is balance it out, when the content is trivial to the player passing through, don't make it annoying for sole sake of being annoying.  I don't mind a tripping or two now and then and I don't mind wondering high level mobs sometimes making one's day a bit more challenging (in fact, I kind of like that option.)  But let's not do this just to be an annoying mechanic either.

    Well, I can't say I have ever seen that happen, actually  never even seen a mount you could remount in under 2 seconds in order to get knocked off it again. But yes, if that's happening there is definitely a balance problem.

    • 281 posts
    August 7, 2017 7:40 PM PDT

    2 seconds might be an exageration, but let's just say it is not because the whole point is that there are games that go overboard with that mechanic.  I'm not arguing against choke points or even being dismounted while riding.  I am saying that there is a point where it is over-kill and serves no purpose but annoyance when the mobs are no challenge to the person passing other than this mechanic.

    • 1281 posts
    August 7, 2017 8:24 PM PDT

    It does not make sense that a highly traveled path would not be moderately safe due to the amount of traffic, in most cases. There may be areas in the game where bandits are present, which since they are looters, they may be by roads to attack you.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at August 7, 2017 8:25 PM PDT
    • 542 posts
    August 8, 2017 9:46 AM PDT

    au contraire


    The whole problem is that travel has always been too safe,you can travel from A to B with no problems.
    It is not hard to see why nothing is keeping players together.Other players are irrelevant to get from A to B

    Personally I'd like many areas to be like a challenging puzzle where ,often, multiple players are required to progress

    When talking about choke points there are misconceptions that it should have to do anything with level restrictions(and I think I have shared my view on levels enough)
    A captain of a ship does not need to be age 50 before he is allowed to sail past the Streets of Gibraltar.It makes no sense to me that people would link level restrictions to choke points.
    A choke point might have challenges for any player,regardless of how experienced*.If you truly want to make content equally important with no endgame mentality,it is not hard to see why it would be for the better
    to get rid of it.

    When talking about choke points you talk about 1 type of situation.
    The reality is that there never has been environmental dangers that challenge players in these games
    We do not need dangers only at choke points-we need danger at every turn of a corner.
    That is when we will start to need and consider other players

    If in turn the range to *call for help* is reduced to what is realistic when out in the open.And travel is not convenient instant travel.(Safer ways to travel could be discovered eventually)
    We will discover that players will approach others
    Never should travel be safe in my opinion

    Mounts only if they are used to reach areas that are otherwise inaccesible


    This post was edited by Fluffy at August 8, 2017 9:48 AM PDT
    • 769 posts
    August 8, 2017 11:41 AM PDT

    Fluffy said:

    au contraire


    The whole problem is that travel has always been too safe,you can travel from A to B with no problems.
    It is not hard to see why nothing is keeping players together.Other players are irrelevant to get from A to B

    Personally I'd like many areas to be like a challenging puzzle where ,often, multiple players are required to progress

    When talking about choke points there are misconceptions that it should have to do anything with level restrictions(and I think I have shared my view on levels enough)
    A captain of a ship does not need to be age 50 before he is allowed to sail past the Streets of Gibraltar.It makes no sense to me that people would link level restrictions to choke points.
    A choke point might have challenges for any player,regardless of how experienced*.If you truly want to make content equally important with no endgame mentality,it is not hard to see why it would be for the better
    to get rid of it.

    When talking about choke points you talk about 1 type of situation.
    The reality is that there never has been environmental dangers that challenge players in these games
    We do not need dangers only at choke points-we need danger at every turn of a corner.
    That is when we will start to need and consider other players

    If in turn the range to *call for help* is reduced to what is realistic when out in the open.And travel is not convenient instant travel.(Safer ways to travel could be discovered eventually)
    We will discover that players will approach others
    Never should travel be safe in my opinion

    Mounts only if they are used to reach areas that are otherwise inaccesible

     

    I think in theory this is nice, but it has the danger of really scaring a lot of people away. In EQ, it was hard enough just walking from Qeynos to Freeport for a Befallen group, even if there weren't any "choke points" like HHP. If I needed to find a group just to get to my group, I wouldn't have lasted long on that game.

    Make the dungeons require groups. Make grouping and interacting essential for dungeons, teleportation, trade, and tradeskills. The journey to get there should be challenging (even VERY challenging), but I'm not sure it should require a group just to travel.