Forums » Pantheon Classes

    • 16 posts
    May 23, 2017 8:47 AM PDT

     

    This is what I think a fair system, higher numbers are better.

    The percentage I am not sure but the ratio are what I think makes it fair.  

                                Warrior                       Paladin                      Dire Lord

    Tanking:                3 =100%                   2=80%                       1=60%

    Utility     :              1 =60%                     3 =100%                    2=80%

    Soloing   :              2 =80                        1 =60%                      3=100%

    • 69 posts
    May 23, 2017 9:25 AM PDT

    Can you help me understand a little what you are trying to say here? Perhaps I missed something? To what system are you refering? From what statitistics and number are you pulling data? Is this in regards to another post? Can you define "tanking" "utility" and "soloing" in reference to a "tank's" perspective? Also, shouldnt "tanking" be broken down further to Single Target, AoE targets, damage mitigation, damage avoidance, duration, etc? Same with "utility" that is rather a broad category.

     

    Thanks

    Nil

    • 69 posts
    May 23, 2017 10:25 AM PDT

    I started thinking more about your post, i am guessing you are saying that you would like to see a difference in the tanking classes. As for soloing, that depends on each class and skills. Let me brake down what i would envision with a ranking of 1-4 (1 being awful, 2 being below average, 3 being above average, 4 being excellent):

    War          Pally         Direlord

            --Tanking Skills

    -Single Target           4             3              3

    -AoE Targets             3             4              4

    -Single Dmg Mit         4             3              3

    -AoE Dmg Mit            3             4              2

    -Long Fights              4             3              3

    -Burst Fights             3             2              4

           --Utility

    -Group Mitigation       2             3              1

    -Cureing                   N             4              2

    -Crowd Control          1             4*            2*

    -Buffing                    1             2              1

    -2nd Dmg (ADPS)      2             N              1

    -Mob Slowing            N             2*            4*

    -Mob Debuffing          N            N              2

     

    *for undead only

    NOTE: this was strictly a for-fun post. I dont have hard data. I wrote this based upon experiences from other games coupled with lore. I also like to see one class excel in one area but lack in another. So, warrior mitigate a lot of damage but dont do some of the secondary things, and knights dont tank as well but do more secondary things. This makes it so, sometimes you want a knight, and sometimes you want a warrior. brings depth to the game.

    Salute,

    Nil

     


    This post was edited by Niloiv at May 23, 2017 10:27 AM PDT
    • 633 posts
    May 23, 2017 11:02 AM PDT

    I say we just make sure they fit whatever role(s) their required to fill and are fun for people to play.  Classes don't need to be (and never will be) perfectly balanced.

    • 16 posts
    May 25, 2017 3:14 PM PDT

     

    This is the system I made up , there is no data . Just asking what you guys think. I think it is a fair system for tank classes .


    This post was edited by kopasz at May 31, 2017 3:45 PM PDT
    • 279 posts
    May 25, 2017 10:44 PM PDT

    As far as your proposed chart thinger goes:

    I think the gaps are massive especially considering the tanks need to be balanced in relationship to other classes. If the content NEEDS a tank, then how would you balance it? based on the Dire Lord as a baseline? How much better would a DL tank over a Melee DPS? I figured Monks/Rangers probably were 60 to 70% of a warrior in my head, otherwise they will have a difficult time offtanking in a pinch.

    Specificity would help, When you say a warrior is 40% better at tanking than a DL, in what way? And why?

    Metrics I would use to judge a tank

    Physical Mitigation, Physical Avoidance

    Magical Mitigation, Magical Avoidance

    Aggro Generation, Damage Potential < these are in some games tied to each other, though not necessary to have them tied together. However the DPS potential of the tanks in relation to each other does matter within a reasonable margin.

     

    Also if a warrior is the least in utility, how would he/she solo better than a Paladin? How are you defining Utility? I mean i would think a warrior should have a shout/war cry and/or an aura/commanding presence, and some interrupts/stuns via physical melee attacks, hell I could see a hamstring snare type ability too, but all of that is meaningless without the means to move your HP bar in the positive direction (though I could see them having a higher standing regen then the other 2 tanks due to the physicallity of their occupation)

    • 432 posts
    May 30, 2017 12:47 PM PDT

    Sunmistress said:

     (though I could see them having a higher standing regen then the other 2 tanks due to the physicallity of their occupation)

     

    the higher based regen would need to stem from something else besides just saying they are more fit or physically inclined. We dont want to call all other melee classes lazy and out of shape next to the warrior. I can already hear Monks complaining. 

     

    -mobile

    -Todd

     

    • 18 posts
    May 30, 2017 3:59 PM PDT

    *sigh* These Dire Lord hate threads are really not productive. Trying (poorly) to conceal as 'constructive feedback' doesn't make them any less toxic unless you think VR are as dumb as a box of hair.

     

    I really look forward to when VR shares their design thoughts and goals on the various tank classes so all these warrior white knights can stop polluting the forums.

    • 316 posts
    May 30, 2017 11:52 PM PDT

    Not DL hate thread, I don't think. Makes sense to me. DLs are best soloers, 2nd best utility, worst tank, but still a tank and tanky. I think that makes some sense given the characterization of the class. I like your breakdown, kopasz. People will just be pissed (I think) that not all tanks are equally good at tanking - though why, I'm not so sure, considering the classes may be better at OTHER things, as kopasz illustrates. DL as best tank soloer, yes! They're dark lords for inny's sake, they're the most likely to be on their own.

    I guess the argument would be: Well then why would a group ever choose a DL over a paladin? Itd be because the DL would still be useful in some unique ways that VR would see to, and, who knows, maybe there wouldn't be a paladin around to join all the time. Maybe the DL would be a better self-sufficient off-tank due to its soloing ability. Main thing would have to be these differences wouldn't be SO great to really throw off a group, but still be there. The DL should thrive in combat, and maybe he is a bit less friendly to a party - but shouldn't be be, as a dire lord? And VR would make sure he's party-friendly enough to be viable and be able to have fun in a group.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at June 4, 2017 5:26 PM PDT
    • 432 posts
    May 31, 2017 9:33 AM PDT

    Rengrave said:

    *sigh* These Dire Lord hate threads are really not productive. Trying (poorly) to conceal as 'constructive feedback' doesn't make them any less toxic unless you think VR are as dumb as a box of hair.

     

    I really look forward to when VR shares their design thoughts and goals on the various tank classes so all these warrior white knights can stop polluting the forums.

    I hear ya. Its sad to think people consider there to be such drastic difference in tanking ability. I think its prudent to wait and see the good news from VR

     

    -mobile

    -Todd

    • 16 posts
    May 31, 2017 4:00 PM PDT

    Rengrave said:

    *sigh* These Dire Lord hate threads are really not productive. Trying (poorly) to conceal as 'constructive feedback' doesn't make them any less toxic unless you think VR are as dumb as a box of hair.

     

    I really look forward to when VR shares their design thoughts and goals on the various tank classes so all these warrior white knights can stop polluting the forums.

     

    I do not hate Dire Lord classes , don't even know what is  VR plan with each classes . I just want classis to be all usful ,but not the same.

    I have played tank classes all the game I have played .  I do loved the players and hate the players , not the class  they play. 

     

     


    This post was edited by kopasz at June 1, 2017 11:30 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    May 31, 2017 4:02 PM PDT

    tehtawd said:

    Sunmistress said:

     (though I could see them having a higher standing regen then the other 2 tanks due to the physicallity of their occupation)

     

    the higher based regen would need to stem from something else besides just saying they are more fit or physically inclined. We dont want to call all other melee classes lazy and out of shape next to the warrior. I can already hear Monks complaining. 

     

    -mobile

    -Todd

     

     

     Personally I Think all the physical based melee classes, should for a brief time be able to increase their natural regeneration rates (be it endurance, health whatever) using their Ironwill discipline and determination. Sort of like how casters Med Mana back. However on the inverse I think, Unlike early EQ, those classes should also have to manage their resources more. So it would be a proper give and take.

    Just my thoughts on that. 

     

     

    • 279 posts
    May 31, 2017 4:17 PM PDT

    kopasz said:

    Rengrave said:

    *sigh* These Dire Lord hate threads are really not productive. Trying (poorly) to conceal as 'constructive feedback' doesn't make them any less toxic unless you think VR are as dumb as a box of hair.

     

    I really look forward to when VR shares their design thoughts and goals on the various tank classes so all these warrior white knights can stop polluting the forums.

     

    I do not hate Dire Lord classes , don't even know what is  VR plan with each classes . I just want classis to be all usful ,but not the same.

    I have played tank classes all the game .  I do loved the players and hate the players , not their classis . 

     

     

     

    a 40% difference in overall tankability is massive, if a DL took 40% more damage and did 40% less aggro then the warrior in the last stream, he would not be capable of fulfilling the role in any way shape or form, given what was displayed in said stream. If that isn't what you meant perhaps you should quantify your statement more accurately, because I generally got the same vibe from your OP as Rengrave did. To me it looked very much like you were implying that Dire Lords should basically be useless in a group.

    Secondly Even if the Dire Lord is the best "solo"ing tank, that doesn't mean they function at 100% of overall soloability in comparison to Other classes that can solo. At best i'd think a Tank would be 30% soloability, at the very best, the toolkit should be focused on survival and such. Other classes should be light years ahead of tanks at soloing due to how their toolkits are focused, thats just my opinion. Basically you can't survive a mob to death, but you can kill it with damage or kite it.

    Now on the flipside of that coin Tanks generally would have the toolkit for say trophy killing (specifically DL's/Paladins if they can self heal much/at all), but that is less about XP/Hour and more about bragging rights. Though falls under the broad brush of "soloability".

    Especially if that soloability comes at a direct cost in ability to perform one's primary role.

    • 432 posts
    June 1, 2017 6:16 AM PDT

    Sunmistress said:

    tehtawd said:

    Sunmistress said:

     (though I could see them having a higher standing regen then the other 2 tanks due to the physicallity of their occupation)

     

    the higher based regen would need to stem from something else besides just saying they are more fit or physically inclined. We dont want to call all other melee classes lazy and out of shape next to the warrior. I can already hear Monks complaining. 

     

    -mobile

    -Todd

     

     

     Personally I Think all the physical based melee classes, should for a brief time be able to increase their natural regeneration rates (be it endurance, health whatever) using their Ironwill discipline and determination. Sort of like how casters Med Mana back. However on the inverse I think, Unlike early EQ, those classes should also have to manage their resources more. So it would be a proper give and take.

    Just my thoughts on that. 

     

     

    Im Totally in love with that idea!

     

    --mobile 

    -Todd

    • 18 posts
    June 2, 2017 11:12 AM PDT

    Even outside of the thinly vieled DL hate this thread puts forth, the idea that a class should have 'soloability' is ridiculous and counter to what the stated desgin goals of the game are.

    Per Brad the game is being built to be a group based game. While they do not punish or prevent solo play, it is not what the game is being built for. So putting focus on a class for elements counter to the design of the game is the same as saying that the class should just be less useful than other classes.

     

    Mod Edit: Removed the last paragraph as per the guidelines, insults and personal attacks are not tolerated.


    This post was edited by VR-Mod1 at June 4, 2017 5:28 PM PDT
    • 14 posts
    June 3, 2017 4:34 PM PDT

    There is no hate or favoritism here as far as I can tell.

    It purely seems like people want their classes to function better in different sections of the game.

    Who will be most desired/needed for:

    -Tanking Primary Raid Target

    -Tanking Additional Raid Targets

    -DPSing while tanking

    -Healing/Protecting group while tanking

    -Split pulling and CCing while tanking

    What does your class get and what do they give up?

    If your class deals the best dps, survives all group content and raid adds, self heals through self-pulled encounters, and just cant get one-rounded vs the big bad raid boss while clerics heal rotate... well, why have more tank classes? :D

    Its normal for the warrior-type players to be skeptical of balance since they stand to give up the most in exchange for the right to tank the hardest hitting mobs at end-game ... all for naught if they discover other tank classes can muster what is needed and still bring more to a group and kill faster as well as solo with utility and self-heals.

    • 14 posts
    June 3, 2017 4:41 PM PDT

    Everyone wants their own class to be useful from start to finish and have the sacrifices they made by not playing "this other class" be rewarded with a niche of their own.

     

    I'm sure the random numbers of mitigation such as "-40%" are just a rough guesstimate meaning "class X gets less mitigation than classZ because it has abc other skillsets". But no one actually thinks that any tank class should be considerably worse at tanking in group content. Balancing mitigation-to-healing ratios is the trick to allow similar survivability in group while allowing a knight to bring more to the table with dps and/or utility ... but having the self healing pale in comparison to mitigation in terms of massive hard hitters like a main raid target.


    This post was edited by cazicss at June 3, 2017 4:46 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    June 3, 2017 11:00 PM PDT

    cazicss said:

    There is no hate or favoritism here as far as I can tell.

    It purely seems like people want their classes to function better in different sections of the game.

    Who will be most desired/needed for:

    -Tanking Primary Raid Target

    -Tanking Additional Raid Targets

    -DPSing while tanking

    -Healing/Protecting group while tanking

    -Split pulling and CCing while tanking

    What does your class get and what do they give up?

    If your class deals the best dps, survives all group content and raid adds, self heals through self-pulled encounters, and just cant get one-rounded vs the big bad raid boss while clerics heal rotate... well, why have more tank classes? :D

    Its normal for the warrior-type players to be skeptical of balance since they stand to give up the most in exchange for the right to tank the hardest hitting mobs at end-game ... all for naught if they discover other tank classes can muster what is needed and still bring more to a group and kill faster as well as solo with utility and self-heals.

    Man, welcome to the community.  I think your assessment was spot on.  Looking forward to seeing more posts from you on any thread.

    • 1618 posts
    June 4, 2017 8:00 AM PDT

    My version goes something like this. Numbers and proportions are meaningless in this example, just there for illustration. I am strictly discussing the ability to soak up damage, not DPS/utility or other benefits. In my mine, each class will have their own benefits to balance each other. That is way beyond the scope of this post. So, for today, I am strictly discussing the various tank's ability to soak up damage in my way of thinking.

    Three examples are from different damage types: Physical, Arcane, Divine.

    A mob does 1000 damage from 5 attacks. The tank has 350 hit points.
    The mobs attacks 5 times for: 300, 200, 100, 100, and 300.
    On average, each has a way to neutralize 50% of the damage, making them all equal overall. The difference comes in how the damage is issued by the mob.

    In the first example, the damage is strictly physical. The mitigation is:
    A Warrior mitigates 50% damage. The healer handles the rest.
    A Paladin mitigates 30% damage and self heals/wards for 20%. The healer handles the rest.
    A Dire Lord mitigates 30% damage and life-taps for 20%. The healer handles the rest.

    The tanks take damage as follows:
    Warrior    150  100  50  50  150
    Paladin    210  140  70  70  210
    Dire Lord  210  140  70  70  210

    With only 300 HP, the warrior can take 4 full hits and survive, giving the healer time to heal before the 5th hit. The Paladin has to make sure to get a self-heal off before the third hit or die. This means the healer has to be faster if the Paladin doesn't play well. Like the Paladin, the Dire Lord must get a life-tap attack off before the 3rd hit or die. Again, relying on the healer sooner, if the Dire Lord does not get its attack off.

    In the second example, the damage is more arcane. The mitigation is:
    A Warrior mitigates 30% damage. The healer handles the rest.
    A Paladin mitigates 30% damage and self heals/wards for 20%. The healer handles the rest.
    A Dire Lord mitigates 50% damage and life-taps for 20%. The healer handles the rest.

    The tanks take damage as follows:
    Dire Lord  150  100  50  50  150
    Paladin    210  140  70  70  210
    Warrior    210  140  70  70  210

    In the third example, the damage is more divine. The mitigation is:
    A Warrior mitigates 30% damage. The healer handles the rest.
    A Paladin mitigates 50% damage and self heals/wards for 20%. The healer handles the rest.
    A Dire Lord mitigates 30% damage and life-taps for 20%. The healer handles the rest.

    The tanks take damage as follows:
    Paladin    150  100  50  50  150
    Dire Lord  210  140  70  70  210
    Warrior    210  140  70  70  210

    Also, you can differentiate how the tanks do based on how the damage is done.
    If the hits are big amounts, repeatedly, the warrior will survive better, due to its mitigation.
    If the hits are slow, such as DOTs, mitigation may not matter as much as the life-taps from the Dire Lord may be better.
    If there is one really big hit, followed by a few normal hits, the Paladin may do better with wards and instant self-heals.

    Overall, each tank can do equally well. It just depends on the mob they are fighting.
    A warrior is the best main tank for the big raid boss, because he it going to hit like an SOB repeatedly.
    A paladin may be the best tank for pulling raid bosses, because he can ward the initial hits, like death touch, etc., then pass it off to the Warrior.
    A Dire Lord may be the best off-tank for the adds, because the smaller mobs hits are basically like a big mob hitting with DOTs, the life-taps, especially AE ones, can neutralize a lot of the damage.

    Each type of tank is needed in a raid. Each serves its role better than the others would. But, in a pinch, a well-geared/played tank of any class could effectively fill in when needed.

    For grouping, the difference is probably not that significant to demand a certain type of tank for a certain boss.

    Of course, you can always through a monk in there. They probably suck at mitigation, but can avoid a lot of hits. They can handle a few hits, but if they fail to avoid that big hit, they are toast.

    These are just my thoughts. I am sure you will disagree and tear it apart.
    Enjoy.

    • 3237 posts
    June 5, 2017 6:43 AM PDT

    I always envisioned damage mitigation as the "utility" factor for warriors.  No rez, no targetable curing/healing, no stat-tap, no kiting, no feign death, no pets, no massive spike damage (Harm Touch) or heal (Lay on Hands)  --  that said, I think warriors having higher mitigation than the other tanks is appropriate.  It's difficult for me to look at something like damage absorption and then justify all tanks being able to do it equally.  It's a part of the warriors kit and something that ultimately defines their class, in my opinion.  If we're going to equalize mitigation across the board, but make it situational, I would hope that warriors would get some situational utility to make up for it.  Rather than redefining the class and adding new forms of utility, though, I'd rather see damage absorption remain as their specialty.  Just like with healers ... druids and shamans will have more "utility" than clerics.  Clerics make up for it by having the most powerful pure healing throughput of any healer.  I think that's a fair place to start when drawing up comparisons within an archetype.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 5, 2017 6:45 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    June 5, 2017 8:17 AM PDT

    Mitigation and self healing differences are fine as long as they aren't tuned to a level it becomes "lol guild invite 1 token Paladin to ramp tank and Brells and 1 token SK to offtank, then stack 10 warriors" like EQ was for a good portion of its lifespan.

    Though I still think warriors should have some interrupts (throat jab), maybe a short snare (lowblow/knee strike) or a roar of defiance/berzerk rage/last stand type ability to mix up there toolkit beyond just aggro abilities and pure defensives.

    Something that makes me say "hey nobody else is LFG but there's a warrior, we don't really need 2 tanks, but that throat jab tho" or something.

    Like there's alot of cool ways they could mix up the warrior toolkit, beyond just "all I do is taunt and get face smashed bro" IMO atleast 

    • 3237 posts
    June 5, 2017 1:36 PM PDT

    For sure.  I like the throat jab idea.  I think I mentioned on this thread or another one, I would like to see some abilities that offer situational aggro boosts.  Throat jab, for example, could be an interupt or silence.  If it successfully interrupts or silences an enemy spell cast, it also adds some bonus threat.  I definitely want to work for my aggro.  Less spamming, more windows of opportunity where I can execute or fail.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 5, 2017 3:31 PM PDT
    • 279 posts
    June 5, 2017 6:06 PM PDT

    Yar that was my general thought. 

    And I agree aggro/threat or whatever should be gained strategically as opposed to pewpew aggro_001 ability pewpew aggro_002 in a mindless rotation.

    Interrupted casting should raise the ire of caster.

    A thoughtful shield bash/knee strike/pommel strike to an opponent charging a caster should get a bonus to aggro. As well as momentarily stun/snare/daze the opponent.

    I want dynamic combat (within the confines of this style of game, not advocating for hack and slash type mechanics). Tactical application of abilities giving bonuses in threat or momentary mitigation increases.

    Most MMORPG's are a downer when it comes to tanking mechanically speaking. 

    Though not knowing the lore of the warrior class in this game. One thing I thought would be cool was a true Last stand type ability.

    Where if the warrior hits 0% health, his HP locks, and there is an aggro/dmg bonus for the duration and then followed by dying (or living with some luck and a well timed heal! Go teamwork)

    I could see that being not really an answer to the self healing utility, but a means to accomplish the same thing when stuff goes pear shaped foe the warriors group, there been many times as a paladin in many games(I've never played a warrior seriously) I managed to save a group from a wipe with some well placed healing/self healing. Where warriors really don't have any autonomous ability whatsoever traditionally.

    Not sure how well I am conveying the idea, but that's about as good as I can do (Monks in EQ have an ability called Defer Death was where I got the idea).

    Like I am going to die! But not until after I put my axe through your chest, type ironwilled determination to kill your opponent sounds pretty warriorly to me IDK.

     

    • 3237 posts
    June 5, 2017 8:18 PM PDT

    Last Stand definitely sounds like an iconic warrior ability to me.