I know they've mentioned that combat will be more "engaging" than what has been seen on the last twitch.
But what is everyone thinking the direction they will go is?
I haven't seen much other than EQ2 and the use of HO's there. (Heroic Opportunities) I thought they were a pretty neat idea, if highly under utilitized.
Something I'd like to see is using abilities with the imput of mouse guides and click. If anyone has ever played one of the older Harry Potter games, you'll know what i'm talking about. You had to follow a line with your mouse pointer to complete spells. If you followed the pattern and kept the mouse pointer inside the designated areas and did it quick enough you'd land a perfect spell. If you didnt' do it fast enough or you were sloppy, you'd land a weaker spell. This could also be used for swords or punches, or bow's if done right. I thought this was a neat idea to try to incorperate into an MMO.
My number one hope is that for at least some of the classes combat will NOT be more engaging - if "engaging" is anything like the way it is in so-called action RPGs. Constant movement, more emphasis on reflexes and being on the right pixel at the right second than actual thinking and fighting.
On the other hand I am hoping it means more like a low percentage of damage done by auto-attacks, more combat abilities that are useful in different ways so you don't use the same rotation in the same way in almost every fight, maybe ability to aim attacks with damage differing depending on where you hit the enemy, etc.
Multiple MMOs have special attacks that are triggered by people in a group doing different things - in a group-focused game like Pantheon I would expect one or more of these whether modeled on one of the existing games or a new approach.
dorotea said:My number one hope is that for at least some of the classes combat will NOT be more engaging - if "engaging" is anything like the way it is in so-called action RPGs. Constant movement, more emphasis on reflexes and being on the right pixel at the right second than actual thinking and fighting.
On the other hand I am hoping it means more like a low percentage of damage done by auto-attacks, more combat abilities that are useful in different ways so you don't use the same rotation in the same way in almost every fight, maybe ability to aim attacks with damage differing depending on where you hit the enemy, etc.
Multiple MMOs have special attacks that are triggered by people in a group doing different things - in a group-focused game like Pantheon I would expect one or more of these whether modeled on one of the existing games or a new approach.
Agreed, I want the challenge to be more strategic then gamey and twitch-based. I don't want it to be as bland as a warrior in classic EQ but I also don't want a "rotation" because that pretty much precludes having to make interesting choices about your abilities.
When I think of more engaging combat I imagine having a lot of choices at any given moment and having to choose wisely to defeat the specific content your fighting.
Where making wrong choices cost your group heavily and making it out by the skin of your teeth is the result of smart play not necessarily "twitch" play.
I really liked the "chain" style attacks that they used in Vanguard to add to the combat. I hope they implement a system like this with even more depth.
In addition to things like this I would expect active blocks, counterspells, positioning, situational awareness...etc
Watching the streams so far everything is looking great to me. They just need to keep on layering more and more until the combat is really fun.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
In the last stream, Joppa listed a few ideas they have for making combat more interesting:
- NPCs will have special abilities and the tactics to use them strategically. (Ex.: heals, ranged attacks, taking cover, cleave attacks, knockbacks, knockdowns, charms)
- New dynamic encounters will be introduced, such as Ambient mobs. (Ex.: on a balcony, there could be a battalion of archers that periodically launch a volley of arrows after a loud shout. Players will need to find ways to either dispatch the archers, or take cover when they fire their waves of arrows.)
- Expect to see more details soon regarding new NPC Dispositions, such as Pyrophobic, Predator, and Sniper.
Making combat more engaging will primarily involve making the NPC's strategies more dynamic. You will have to spend more time looking at what's going on and thinking about how to counter it, rather than just looking at your keyboard and hotbars. From the FAQ:
13.2 Will there be ability chaining?
We’re considering it. We don’t want to create a detailed combo system but we like the idea of synergetic abilities and the opportunity for players abilities to open up possible actions for others. We will reveal more in the future.
(In the FAQ, under the "Game Mechanics" section, there's several more topics discussing how combat will be strategic and engaging without feeling like a twitchy first-person shooter. This has been well-established for years.)
In the last streams, we did see some abilities like Setting Sun Kick and Rising Moon Kick that have some synergy when you use them together:
Setting Sun Kick: "A powerful kick that deals physical damage to your target, with a chance to slow their spell casting speed (20%) for 6 seconds."
Rising Moon Kick: "A powerful kick that deals physical damage to your target. If used within 6 seconds of Setting Sun Kick, this ability has a 50% chance to critically hit."
But I personally don't expect there to be "chains" that are much longer than 2 or 3 abilities. That just turns into button mashing and busy work. You spend more time repeating combos than actually thinking about what your enemy is doing and coming up with a plan to keep the upper hand. The system the OP described of using your mouse to write runes in the air (like a magic wand) is cool, but not really fitting in this game. Again, the devs want people to be focused on the world, not their UI. The mob dispositions and behavior in particular will accomplish this. Every fight will be unique as the mobs try to outsmart you, without the need for additional complicated combat systems.
Also see:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2875/party-chain-combos/view/page/1
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5815/attacks-of-opportunity
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4981/chain-spells
I hope there isn't an on screen indicator like EQ2. You just end up staring at that. If there are visual queues from the mob or environment, that would perhaps be better. It could also be something a simple as learning not just your own class, but the others. When the warror uses a whatever debuff, for the first 12 seconds the next monk flying kick has a higher chance to crit. Or after the wizard drops ice comet, the next bash ability has a chance to stun. etc. etc. That way people pay attention to what's going on, and don't just dial in to an on screen indicator telling them what to do when. That kind of quick time event is bunk.
Krixus said:I hope there isn't an on screen indicator like EQ2. You just end up staring at that. If there are visual queues from the mob or environment, that would perhaps be better. It could also be something a simple as learning not just your own class, but the others. When the warror uses a whatever debuff, for the first 12 seconds the next monk flying kick has a higher chance to crit. Or after the wizard drops ice comet, the next bash ability has a chance to stun. etc. etc. That way people pay attention to what's going on, and don't just dial in to an on screen indicator telling them what to do when. That kind of quick time event is bunk.
In fairness, how else does that information get conveyed?
1. Debuff list on the target window.
2. Macro in group chat stating that you used the debuff.
3. Character animations.
Regardless of which one you pick, you're always being indicated by something on the screen. Your eyes are glued somewhere.
Liav said:Krixus said:I hope there isn't an on screen indicator like EQ2. You just end up staring at that. If there are visual queues from the mob or environment, that would perhaps be better. It could also be something a simple as learning not just your own class, but the others. When the warror uses a whatever debuff, for the first 12 seconds the next monk flying kick has a higher chance to crit. Or after the wizard drops ice comet, the next bash ability has a chance to stun. etc. etc. That way people pay attention to what's going on, and don't just dial in to an on screen indicator telling them what to do when. That kind of quick time event is bunk.
In fairness, how else does that information get conveyed?
1. Debuff list on the target window.
2. Macro in group chat stating that you used the debuff.
3. Character animations.
Regardless of which one you pick, you're always being indicated by something on the screen. Your eyes are glued somewhere.
Cmon man, paying attention to the spells cast or abilities used by your group members is different than staring at the place on the screen where you've set the heroic opportunity wheel.
Angrykiz said:When I think of more engaging combat I imagine having a lot of choices at any given moment and having to choose wisely to defeat the specific content your fighting.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
With that being said, what is your take on the current UI of 1 hotbar?
Kittik said:Angrykiz said:When I think of more engaging combat I imagine having a lot of choices at any given moment and having to choose wisely to defeat the specific content your fighting.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
With that being said, what is your take on the current UI of 1 hotbar?
If you could open "chains" out of that one hotbar I could see it being pretty good but honestly a few more slots for situational abilities would be a real nice addition.
It would feel like a regression to go from Vanguard style combat back to EQ simplicity. Personally I hope for a progression from Vanguard into an even more deep combat environment.
At this point I feel like none of the details are set in stone and the team will do what's needed to turn combat up to eleven. So I have faith.
Thanks for asking,
Kiz~
As much as I hated the heroic opportunity system, I would hate to rule out combos or sympathetics altogether. If someone uses an ability on a mob that directly enhances a particular attack that you have, they could have something appear on a similar piece of UI, or they could simply make an ability flash and give it a unique border. Maybe have chain links going around the border of the icon.
Think of this.
If you're in a group with a Rouge, Enchanter and Shaman, you have different abilities that will pop up and become available to you.
If you're in a group with a Warrior, Cleric and Enchanter, you have different abilities that will pop up and become available to you.
If you're in a group with a Cleric, Shaman, and Monk, you have different abilities that will pop up and become available to you.
Each, group, or combination of classes, or a single class alone gives you different abilits to use.
Dullahan said:As much as I hated the heroic opportunity system, I would hate to rule out combos or sympathetics altogether. If someone uses an ability on a mob that directly enhances a particular attack that you have, they could have something appear on a similar piece of UI, or they could simply make an ability flash and give it a unique border. Maybe have chain links going around the border of the icon.
It wasn't hard in EQ to know when a frost nuke was cast, or a stun, or a poison spell. I'm not saying you have to rely on particle effects, but a graphical indicator is a hell of a lot better than some prompt on the screen that effectively says "do this now". I know in raid situations that might get out of hand, but still, do you really want an indicator on the screen that serves no other purpose than to tell you about an opportunity? Makeit "organic", reward people for knowing the game, reward people for paying attention, reward communication.
There's just practical limitations on how "organic" it can get. You pointed that out with regards to raiding.
In all likelihood we need some form of UI indicator. In Vanguard, it was a separate UI piece from the piece that contained the mob's debuffs. It was just a window with icons indicating which weaknesses were active.
I agree that the heroic opportunity window is awful, however EQ didn't really allow for synergistic gameplay like that outside of extremely "low level" stuff such as basic CC: root, mez, stuns of limited usefulness (mostly used to interrupt), etc.
Vanguard might actually be the most successful implementation of it that I've seen so far, and I wouldn't mind just seeing that system rehashed or slightly embellished on.
Would love to see something similar in Pantheon. There is a discussion of the idea of co-op/synergy Personal Environments here.
Combined with that, something along the lines of "If you are performing your role, and so are your group mates, you get additional abilities determined by the group leader" I think would work well.
LOTRO has/had a system whereby the group leader can pre-set the beneficial result, and each class is required to contribute, sometimes sequentially, in granting that result.
Having played with both the EQ2 and LOTRO systems, both are pretty cool. There were situations where designers made them required for certain content, which was met with positive and negative responses from the Players. Personally, I love the idea of co-op & synergy, it adds another depth to group combat.
IMO, a system of synergistic/co-op Personal Environments PLUS one that allows leadership to create a custom ability set based on players peforming their role would be a great innovation for Pantheon. Entirely optional, but rewarding to those that use it. This is where things like group regen, group heals, and group mana recovery can be made avaialble in some limited way to groups that temporarily have no healer or no mana regen class, but are all very proficient at playing their other roles. Or not, depending on design goals. :)
Kittik said:Angrykiz said:When I think of more engaging combat I imagine having a lot of choices at any given moment and having to choose wisely to defeat the specific content your fighting.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
With that being said, what is your take on the current UI of 1 hotbar?
Actually, there are two shown. One at bottom. One at right.
CanadinaXegony said:I would like to see combat where the player SKILL comes into play...not macros, not third party addons, not dps meters. Skill that emanates from the player's brain. :) Tactics, strategy, aware and thinking. :)
Cana
In fairness, none of these things are mutually exclusive.
There are massive separations between elite and average players regardless of the level of handholding provided.