Forums » Crafting

Crafters needing crafters

    • 11 posts
    April 21, 2017 8:30 PM PDT

    I'm a major crafting nut.  It's probably my favorite part of most games.  I know for sure, it's literally all I ever did in EQ2 and Final Fantasy.  With that being said, and this game being a "social experiment," are they going to be making crafters require subcrafts from other crafting professions.  I'd really love to see this, require us to make partnerships and trade lines with one another, to further our own craft.  I know some find it annoying, and would rather be self sufficient, but that's just not fun. 

    • 1541 posts
    April 21, 2017 9:19 PM PDT

    Yep. Ceythos posted in this thread that for the better items crafters will need to work with other crafters of a different profession to make those items. See his second post:

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5881/class-dependent-crafting

    I agree with you that having crafters having to rely on other people to make the best items that they can make is always going to be a good thing as it will help to develop a community amongst all the crafters on a server. I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

    • 80 posts
    April 22, 2017 12:42 AM PDT

    Hexaholic said:

    I'm a major crafting nut.  It's probably my favorite part of most games.  I know for sure, it's literally all I ever did in EQ2 and Final Fantasy.  With that being said, and this game being a "social experiment," are they going to be making crafters require subcrafts from other crafting professions.  I'd really love to see this, require us to make partnerships and trade lines with one another, to further our own craft.  I know some find it annoying, and would rather be self sufficient, but that's just not fun. 

    That's an excellent point.  I'm hoping we will learn more about crafter interactions in their next video.  I think it will be crafting/gathering themed.


    This post was edited by Farrinard at April 22, 2017 12:44 AM PDT
    • 153 posts
    April 22, 2017 7:27 AM PDT

    Hexaholic said:

    I'm a major crafting nut.  It's probably my favorite part of most games.  I know for sure, it's literally all I ever did in EQ2 and Final Fantasy.  With that being said, and this game being a "social experiment," are they going to be making crafters require subcrafts from other crafting professions.  I'd really love to see this, require us to make partnerships and trade lines with one another, to further our own craft.  I know some find it annoying, and would rather be self sufficient, but that's just not fun. 

     

    I work as a network engineer for an eCommerce firm.

    I have seen businesses at the very start making literally 200 dollars a month, grow (often with a little html help from yours truely) into business that sell 15-50k a month.

     

    I also have a degree in and was trained in Petrochemical process operations. My internship was for an oil to rubber pellet processing plant, my job was to monitor and control tempatures to ensure that the proper chemical reactions took place at different stages to get the product. We sold our product to a business that makes it into rubber sheets that then were sold to manufacturers of products to be made or used in other products.

     

    The reason I give you that background is to explain I have personal experience in this type of issue. What you're describing is called a B2B, or Business to Business company or transaction.

     

    So, A wood worker can make a wooden rod. He sells that wooden rod to a blacksmith for 5 gold pieces. A leather worker makes leather straps and he sells that to the blacksmith for 3 gold pieces. A gatherer mines some ore and sells that to the blacksmith for 10 gold pieces. A scribe writes magical symbols to be carved into the weapon to increase the strength of the wielder and sells it to the blacksmith for 5 gold peices. The entire process took each player 30 minutes to fulfill the request of the blacksmith and to get the items to him and complete the transaction 5 minutes a piece.

    5+5+10+3= 23 Gold pieces the blacksmith has spent so far.

    4x35= 140 minutes = 2 hours 20 minutes

     

    Now that he has the materials he has to go to the forge, he has to turn the ore into ingots to refine them. He has to then smelt down and mold an axe head. He then has to put all the pieces together and etch in the enchantment. The entire process took him 2 hours (20 minutes in game)

     

    So, lets break this down.

     

    23 Gold from the blacksmith has been spent to build this axe.

    From gathering materials to the end product the axe took 2 hours 40 minutes combined player time.

     

    Now that the axe has been created the blacksmith heads to the market.

    He is requesting 35 gold for this item, but people don't want to pay that, they want to pay him 25.

    He has to spend another 30 minutes bartering with other players eventually working up to 29 gold.

     

    So, the end product is this.

     

    Total Gold Spent: 23

    Total Time Spent: 3 Hours 10 Minutes

    Item sold for: 29 Gold

    Profit: 7 Gold

     

    This process would give players a feel for a real economy, the market would refelect how things are in real life.

    Is this kind of what you were referring to OP? That is what I took from your original post.

     

    • 2531 posts
    April 22, 2017 8:11 AM PDT

    I agree that needing other crafters is good - for two reasons. One, it builds community among crafters and if the servers aren't heavily populated (which I would love for them to be despite personally preferring lower population - success for Pantheon is far better than failure) this matters even more. Two, and this isn't trivial either, it encourages crafters to have alts for multiple crafts and anything that keeps us busy and playing is good for the game.

    • 11 posts
    April 22, 2017 9:53 AM PDT

    Burnsmh said:

    Hexaholic said:

    I'm a major crafting nut.  It's probably my favorite part of most games.  I know for sure, it's literally all I ever did in EQ2 and Final Fantasy.  With that being said, and this game being a "social experiment," are they going to be making crafters require subcrafts from other crafting professions.  I'd really love to see this, require us to make partnerships and trade lines with one another, to further our own craft.  I know some find it annoying, and would rather be self sufficient, but that's just not fun. 

     

    I work as a network engineer for an eCommerce firm.

    I have seen businesses at the very start making literally 200 dollars a month, grow (often with a little html help from yours truely) into business that sell 15-50k a month.

     

    I also have a degree in and was trained in Petrochemical process operations. My internship was for an oil to rubber pellet processing plant, my job was to monitor and control tempatures to ensure that the proper chemical reactions took place at different stages to get the product. We sold our product to a business that makes it into rubber sheets that then were sold to manufacturers of products to be made or used in other products.

     

    The reason I give you that background is to explain I have personal experience in this type of issue. What you're describing is called a B2B, or Business to Business company or transaction.

     

    So, A wood worker can make a wooden rod. He sells that wooden rod to a blacksmith for 5 gold pieces. A leather worker makes leather straps and he sells that to the blacksmith for 3 gold pieces. A gatherer mines some ore and sells that to the blacksmith for 10 gold pieces. A scribe writes magical symbols to be carved into the weapon to increase the strength of the wielder and sells it to the blacksmith for 5 gold peices. The entire process took each player 30 minutes to fulfill the request of the blacksmith and to get the items to him and complete the transaction 5 minutes a piece.

    5+5+10+3= 23 Gold pieces the blacksmith has spent so far.

    4x35= 140 minutes = 2 hours 20 minutes

     

    Now that he has the materials he has to go to the forge, he has to turn the ore into ingots to refine them. He has to then smelt down and mold an axe head. He then has to put all the pieces together and etch in the enchantment. The entire process took him 2 hours (20 minutes in game)

     

    So, lets break this down.

     

    23 Gold from the blacksmith has been spent to build this axe.

    From gathering materials to the end product the axe took 2 hours 40 minutes combined player time.

     

    Now that the axe has been created the blacksmith heads to the market.

    He is requesting 35 gold for this item, but people don't want to pay that, they want to pay him 25.

    He has to spend another 30 minutes bartering with other players eventually working up to 29 gold.

     

    So, the end product is this.

     

    Total Gold Spent: 23

    Total Time Spent: 3 Hours 10 Minutes

    Item sold for: 29 Gold

    Profit: 7 Gold

     

    This process would give players a feel for a real economy, the market would refelect how things are in real life.

    Is this kind of what you were referring to OP? That is what I took from your original post.

     

     

    Yessir, this is basically it.  I mean the lower tier stuff, sure you can craft it on your own.  Like a regular axe, you can build it, and sell it, start to finish.  But say you want a silver axe, or maybe a rune etched axe.  Now you must go find yourself a jeweler or a scribe, and have them further your axe.  Maybe you want some special armor, that requires both leather and metal to make.  It will require the armorer to network out, find someone that has / can create the things that he needs.  It could even get as in depth as to eventually have people setting up contracts / deals, getting the same product from the same person, eventually just building an entire crafting community on servers.  Kind of like Star Wars Galaxies days, where you would get with gatherers, for different products.  For example, Endorn would spawn a really high quality pelt for the week, so getting your hands on this, would propel you in the community, because now you are one of the few crafting really high end gear, because you have the mats to do  so.  

     

    All in all, I'm just really hoping for something in depth, and truly unique.  Everquest 2 crafting was awesome, with the interaction, sure at times it would get boring, but overall, I think they did a great job.  Just don't be like WoW, and it literally just be, go gather X items, click button, item.  

    • 1848 posts
    April 22, 2017 10:11 AM PDT

    Powerful items should rely on multiple crafters, but not items made just to level up.

    Too many times, there is a shortage of a couple classes. Then, the prices for their items make it unreasonable to use for leveling.

    So, in Burnsmh's example, the selling price of your item is less than half the component cost. You end up selling your item for 29 gold, but it costed you 50 gold to make, because of the component supply shortages.

    • 266 posts
    April 22, 2017 10:25 AM PDT

    How about the good ol' barter system? "HEY, I'll swap you 10 leather paddings for 5 milled gromets!" (you get the idea)

    In original daze of EQ, we did a lot of that, and it really helped when the guild worked together on it. Kept cost down and we all came out winners! And yes, very much looking forward to this style of crafting again! People needing people...what a concept! Of course, those who love crafting and have 6 alts that do everything, they don't need anyone, do they? :( But that won't be for a while. We'll all have to get our pins under us!

    • 153 posts
    April 22, 2017 12:11 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    So, in Burnsmh's example, the selling price of your item is less than half the component cost. You end up selling your item for 29 gold, but it costed you 50 gold to make, because of the component supply shortages.

     

    Hopefully this can be resolved with the teiring of the shards. Enabling new shards ONLY when server population is near a reasonable capasity and that might take time to really iron out once the game is actually launched.

     

    That way you have enough people on each server to fill the different crafting roles and creating a strong economy. Then its up to the player base to lean on one another for that, or alting.

    • 11 posts
    April 22, 2017 5:54 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Powerful items should rely on multiple crafters, but not items made just to level up.

    Too many times, there is a shortage of a couple classes. Then, the prices for their items make it unreasonable to use for leveling.

    So, in Burnsmh's example, the selling price of your item is less than half the component cost. You end up selling your item for 29 gold, but it costed you 50 gold to make, because of the component supply shortages.

     

    I'm not asking for it to take crafters to level all the way up.  I was thinking more like a tier'd system, especially to get people used to the idea of seeking out other crafters.   For example, to level to 75, you need to craft cured leather padding 75 times.  But at the top of that tier, there would be a couple items, that are good for that level tier, that require things from other crafters.   As time goes on, and you get higher level, the items to level up start to be fewer in numbers than those that require other crafters to help them make.  Like someone stated above, you can setup trade lines / barter.  "You need this, well I need this from you, so let's make a deal."  

     

    I'm just hoping for a fairly in depth crafting system, and for their to be an actual crafting community as there has been in several games, while others just skip that idea completely.

    • 1541 posts
    April 22, 2017 6:20 PM PDT

    I think that the ideas expressed are pretty good. I like the idea of different crafting professions working together but something has to be done to make sure that the market doesn't get flooded with crafted items of any description because if that happens the value of crafted items will just drop through the floor. In order to stop the saturation of the market, failure needs to be a very real risk when combining items together. 5% or something isn't enough because you'll still end up with 95% of combines going onto the open market. It probably needs to be somewhere between 30% - 40% although obviously real numbers could only be decided upon once the devs and player base have had a chance to see how the economy works in real life.

    So to get that finished uber axe of killing all the different professions might have failed multiple times to come up with the items required to make meaning that the axe would be quite rare and would command a decent price on the open market.

    Just some thoughts I had.

    • 11 posts
    April 23, 2017 1:55 PM PDT

    Yeah, failure needs to be an option.  I'm hoping that they are such seperate classes / levelling schemes, that there is crafter specific gear.  That way it'll help you with your combines.  But yes, failure needs to be an option.  I'm super excited, but trying not to get my hopes up too high.

    • 101 posts
    April 24, 2017 7:48 AM PDT

    As a machinist I don't make my own metal, i'll fabricate it. Even then there are so many times, I may cut wrong, or thread wrong or even burn things when cutting/drilling. I like the idea of working together, when I need something for my own shop I tend to go to another local shop who does something and purchase the item from them. Sometimes somedays it's more than one trip.

    • 266 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:19 AM PDT

    Hexaholic said:

    Yeah, failure needs to be an option.  I'm hoping that they are such seperate classes / levelling schemes, that there is crafter specific gear.  That way it'll help you with your combines.  But yes, failure needs to be an option.  I'm super excited, but trying not to get my hopes up too high.

     

    Failures? Yes... Damage? NO! That turned me off of EQ2 crafting real quick!

    • 137 posts
    April 25, 2017 8:50 AM PDT

    Hexaholic said:

    I'm a major crafting nut.  It's probably my favorite part of most games.  I know for sure, it's literally all I ever did in EQ2 and Final Fantasy.  With that being said, and this game being a "social experiment," are they going to be making crafters require subcrafts from other crafting professions.  I'd really love to see this, require us to make partnerships and trade lines with one another, to further our own craft.  I know some find it annoying, and would rather be self sufficient, but that's just not fun. 

    I personally find it fun being self sufficient in crafting.  I like the option of trading with others, but only as an option, not a requirement.  I love going to make a bow, only to find out I need the string from tailoring, then find out I need some oils from brewing to cure the wood, but need a jar from pottery to make the oil.  This is fun to me.  On top of that, being able to trade with someone for some of those things .... Epic!

    Sadly, for me, fun is also directly proportional to my bag space.

     

     

    <<< My opinions are not humble, they are just my opinions >>>

    • 1195 posts
    April 25, 2017 11:03 AM PDT

    Hexaholic said: ...  are they going to be making crafters require subcrafts from other crafting professions. ...

    It doesn't matter if they "require" it or not, with enough alts / accounts, any one player can always be self sufficient.  Ultimately, if you have the time to invest, it's almost always cheaper too.

    • 1019 posts
    April 25, 2017 3:29 PM PDT

    Has there been any thought/talk of taking this even further to say Group or even Raid level crafting? Yes the Blacksmith needing Cut gems from the Jewelry crafter and refined leather from the Leather crafter to make the "sword of uberness" is one thing... 

    But what about a Group combine by all the above crafters of the appropriate skill level to create the "Sword of Devine Uberness"?  Just like a raid or group needs its appropriate classes this group needs to get together all the right classes AND the right Crafters at the right skill level, they make there way to that forge down in the dungon, the blacksmith opens the group forge window, they all insert the pre prepared items, the blacksmith does the combine and they have the  "Sword of Devine Uberness" obviously other "devine" items could be crafted.. staffs, rings, etc. Where the Tailor would need the Blacksmith and the others need each other for gear equivalent of raid gear (based on difficulty of course)

    What do the rest of you think?

    • 1541 posts
    April 25, 2017 5:42 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    Has there been any thought/talk of taking this even further to say Group or even Raid level crafting? Yes the Blacksmith needing Cut gems from the Jewelry crafter and refined leather from the Leather crafter to make the "sword of uberness" is one thing... 

    But what about a Group combine by all the above crafters of the appropriate skill level to create the "Sword of Devine Uberness"?  Just like a raid or group needs its appropriate classes this group needs to get together all the right classes AND the right Crafters at the right skill level, they make there way to that forge down in the dungon, the blacksmith opens the group forge window, they all insert the pre prepared items, the blacksmith does the combine and they have the  "Sword of Devine Uberness" obviously other "devine" items could be crafted.. staffs, rings, etc. Where the Tailor would need the Blacksmith and the others need each other for gear equivalent of raid gear (based on difficulty of course)

    What do the rest of you think?

    It depends what you mean. If by group or raid crafting you mean getting 6 or 48 (48 is just a number I made up to represent a raid) crafters together in one place to make an item then that would be cool and could result in better than raid level items as it requires so much combined effort to make the items. How that would work though would need to be thought about. I'm not sure if any game has done something like that before. Certainly none of them that I have played anyway. You could have each crafter in the group / raid work with a main crafter to boost their skills. Then items that are crafted by a group / raid would have certain requirements like it would require 10% or more blacksmithing and 5% or more scribes to actually complete and it is the crafters themselves that have to make sure that they have the right group / raid composition in order to make that item. In the same way that normal raids need to make sure that they have the right classes in order to kill the raid mob. That could be very interesting.

    If you just mean crafting an item by a single crafter that requires the help of 6 or 48 other crafters but so that it can be done at the original crafters leisure I think that would fall under the crafters needing crafters banner. Which I still agree with but it wouldn't require so much work to implement as the original crafter can just talk to other crafters when they have the free time and can work out when they do actually work together to create the item.

    Unless I have misunderstood you? If I have I'd be really interested in hearing some more ideas on this subject. I like the idea of crafters working together in groups or raids but because I've never seen in another game I'm having problems thinking about how some problems could be solved.

    • 1019 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:13 PM PDT

    Yes you on the right track of what I'm suggesting. Fighting is group content.. but crafting has basically always been solo... yes needing items from others has been used, just as solo fighting buffs from others are used when soloing... but WHY does crafting HAVE  to be solo? The idea came to me from reading this quote from Brad in another now locked thread (thanks Iscar)

    Arardune said:

    Unfortunately, in the past, raiding has been considered the ultimate risk vs. reward scenario, or even the 'only' high risk vs. reward scenario.  So the best loot has traditionally been obtained by raiding, and raiding only.  We do feel that raiding is (or at least should be) challenging.  Not only are the encounters more difficult, but bringing in and organizing large groups of players, orchestrating the battle, making sure people are doing what they are supposed to, etc. is challenging to manage.  So we do think the rewards should reflect that.

    That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid.  So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary.  So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well.  Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.  

    .........................................

    Our ideal goal, as I've posted before, is to have *some* competition for resources but not too many. 

    With Brad saying this...why not The BEST loot coming from Group crafting. .. and OMG I can't even imagine what a Crafting Raid would be like... but the reward for such a feat would be truly be epic... and it really wouldent require going down into a dungon.. that's just another possability for another recipe .

    It wouldent have to be three level 300 crafters, it could be the TOTAL crafting skill of 600.

    Lots of combinations for Lots of great gear

    • 1848 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:18 PM PDT

    I would be all for that.

    • 1541 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:31 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    Yes you on the right track of what I'm suggesting. Fighting is group content.. but crafting has basically always been solo... yes needing items from others has been used, just as solo fighting buffs from others are used when soloing... but WHY does crafting HAVE  to be solo? The idea came to me from reading this quote from Brad in another now locked thread (thanks Iscar)

    Arardune said:

    Unfortunately, in the past, raiding has been considered the ultimate risk vs. reward scenario, or even the 'only' high risk vs. reward scenario.  So the best loot has traditionally been obtained by raiding, and raiding only.  We do feel that raiding is (or at least should be) challenging.  Not only are the encounters more difficult, but bringing in and organizing large groups of players, orchestrating the battle, making sure people are doing what they are supposed to, etc. is challenging to manage.  So we do think the rewards should reflect that.

    That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid.  So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary.  So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well.  Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.  

    .........................................

    Our ideal goal, as I've posted before, is to have *some* competition for resources but not too many. 

    With Brad saying this...why not The BEST loot coming from Group crafting. .. and OMG I can't even imagine what a Crafting Raid would be like... but the reward for such a feat would be truly be epic... and it really wouldent require going down into a dungon.. that's just another possability for another recipe .

    It wouldent have to be three level 300 crafters, it could be the TOTAL crafting skill of 600.

    Lots of combinations for Lots of great gear

    That sounds really cool. Do you have a link to thread that was posted in? I'd quite like to read the whole thread. But after reading that I am excited. I'm certainly in favour of crafters being able to make some of the best gear in the game because crafters will have dedicated large amounts of time to get to max level and should be rewarded in some way for the work that they have put into leveling up crafting. Having said that I absolutely think that crafting should be really hard to do and that only the most dedicated crafters should reach max level. This should reduce the possibility that the ecconomy becomes flooded with really nice items.

    • 1019 posts
    April 25, 2017 6:52 PM PDT

    Sorry I don't have the first origanal thread... I jacked the quote secound hand from a total unrelated thread where Iscar shared it, before grabbing it from here I unsuccessfully searched the forums for keywords trying to locate the origanal quote. I got it from the first post on page 2 of this thread...

     

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5894/will-my-guild-be-able-to-schedule-raids/view/page/1

     


    This post was edited by Zorkon at April 25, 2017 6:56 PM PDT
    • 1541 posts
    April 25, 2017 9:02 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    Sorry I don't have the first origanal thread... I jacked the quote secound hand from a total unrelated thread where Iscar shared it, before grabbing it from here I unsuccessfully searched the forums for keywords trying to locate the origanal quote. I got it from the first post on page 2 of this thread...

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5894/will-my-guild-be-able-to-schedule-raids/view/page/1

    Thanks for the link. I must have missed that post in that thread.

    • 1019 posts
    April 25, 2017 9:27 PM PDT

    You're welcome

    I have been searching all over for the Origanal post from Arardune, I simply can't find it I'm sorry. I really don't like secound hand info but it's the best I have in this case.

     

     

     

    • 353 posts
    April 27, 2017 6:29 AM PDT

    Ultimately if you don't put some kind of artificial gate on who can craft what you just end up with people that have an army of crafters in their stable and just make all the components they need for themselves.

     

    Or only allow 1 character per server but that would never happen.

     

    I could go on and on about this topic but I've posted about it in other threads too.

     

     

    Thanks,

    Kiz~