Does anyone remember BOTB tourneys once a year and the cool unique titles each class would get in EQ1? Anyone have screenies of it? I think my guilds rogue won it. Had a very unique title after surname. Speaking of surname (off topic) will that be earned like lvl 20 again? Would be nice.
I think it would be cool to have Best of the Best tournaments for each class like EverQuest did. No other game I have played has done that. I'm not really a PvP or duels guy, but I like the spectacle of it. Also, that was when titles actually meant something. I'm hoping PRF will be a game where titles are rare like that, and not a game where everyone has 50 titles they can choose to display at any time.
@Roenyn Current plan is to select your surname at character creation.
I heard about these but unfortunately never had to chance to see it in person. Sounds really cool and I hope Pantheon has tournaments and stuff like that. I like winning :) In addition to PvP, I think it would be cool to have some sort of staged competitive PvE tournaments. Like Raid Races or something like that. As I intend to be heal-specced Cleric, I think it would be a ton of fun to have some way to show off my healing prowess in a tournament setting and have a chance to prove myself as one of the best healers. As a PvE-focused game, I'm sure there would be plenty of people that would enjoy something like that.
It would be neat to do a Pantheon "Olympic" games. You could have different events to compete!
GM events and Guide events are important to stay immersful (if thats a word help with spell). I mean nothing stupid or crazy and doesnt even have to happen every week. Maybe twice a month where ogres raid a human land. Or whatever. Just an event where you will probably die a lot. And run a lot. And curse a lot but the GM and guide people know who participated. It will be an event that will be fun but controlled. For the players. You can even volunteer as a veteran player to help with the event. We dont need our hands held for this game. Brad mentioned that a few times now. We know what the score is.
As for TOT or BOTB tournaments. Bout a year in they should do this. If the game is played right it'll take 4-6 months to get there. Granted the content is right. And i plan on smelling every rose oTW there myself. I am not racing and hope they do have hell levels. YOU HAD TO EARN EVERY PIXEL OF EXP 20-30-40-50. (and even mini hell levels mid teir of that). LOL. Im gonna eat these words... FFS
Roenyn said:GM events and Guide events are important to stay immersful (if thats a word help with spell). I mean nothing stupid or crazy and doesnt even have to happen every week. Maybe twice a month where ogres raid a human land. Or whatever. Just an event where you will probably die a lot. And run a lot. And curse a lot but the GM and guide people know who participated. It will be an event that will be fun but controlled. For the players. You can even volunteer as a veteran player to help with the event. We dont need our hands held for this game. Brad mentioned that a few times now. We know what the score is.
As for TOT or BOTB tournaments. Bout a year in they should do this. If the game is played right it'll take 4-6 months to get there. Granted the content is right. And i plan on smelling every rose oTW there myself. I am not racing and hope they do have hell levels. YOU HAD TO EARN EVERY PIXEL OF EXP 20-30-40-50. (and even mini hell levels mid teir of that). LOL. Im gonna eat these words... FFS
I believe "immersed" or "immersive" were the words you're looking for? But that word means so many things to so many different people - I think it's safer to say GM events keep people engaged and interested in the game.. they're a good way to freshen things up if you're used to grinding. And they are of course also very memorable. And making memories is fun.
Brad has said there probably won't be hell levels. At least not intentionally. Hell levels were a bug. And there's not really a good reason to have them from a design standpoint. Nostalgia isn't a good enough reason. The overall curve should be relatively smooth. It does not benefit the game to make 39-40 more difficult than 49-50. But rest assured the climb to max level will absolutely be long and difficult. That last level 49-50 will probably feel like hell. I wouldn't be surprised if it took most people longer than 4-6 months to reach max level. But anyway, yes, it probably wouldn't make much sense to do a big tournament if there aren't many people at max level. They could of course have different level brackets/leagues, but it would be much cooler if the grand finale was filled with max level people.
I remember the BOTB tournaments. I liked the idea of it and the spectacle of them and the fact they were something that brought the server and community together.
Probably the only real complaint I had of them, was the fact that better geared players had an advantage over lesser-geared ones. So even though someone might be "better" at their class in a PVP sense than someone else, if there was a big enough disparity in gear, then the lesser-skilled, better-equipped player could win. Just because you were in a "better" guild or got luckier on drops for your class, that didn't necessarily mean you were better or the "best of the best".
If there happened to be a BOTB-like tournament in Pantheon, I would like to see players be given a standard set of equipment for the tournament or be able to choose the equipment they wanted to use from a pre-set list to take the gear advantage out of it and leave it strictly (or mostly) to skill.
I personally remember as soon as my guild heard about the first BOTB tournament (we were a hardcore raiding guild) that they immediately started giving all of the best raid loot to one member of each class in our guild (usually officers) in preparation for the tournament. So there were weeks were many members didn’t get loot simply for that fact and were not even afforded the chance to compete in the tournament because our guild leadership had taken it upon themselves to choose who would compete and who would not.
Along the lines of equipment playing a factor again, I seem to remember players being able to use clickables/limited use items in the 1 vs 1 tournament. Being able to use items/equipment/weapons that had a single charge or limited use amount of charges could provide a significant advantage over an opponent depending on the item’s effect/ability. So if Pantheon does have clickable/limited use items (I’m going to go out on a limb and say there will be), then it would be good if those were not allowed in a BOTB tournament For the test of tactics (group BOTB tournament) I seem to remember clickables/limited use items being prohibited though, so that was never a problem.
All that being said, I’m sure VR and the dev team have about 57 other things to worry about/focus on before they even think about stuff like a BOTB post-release and what the rules would be for such an event. Still fun to talk about and reminisce about though. : )
The PvE challenge ideas are pretty interesting. They could be pretty cool if implemented properly. I'm not sure gear shouldn't be a factor in tournaments like this, but I admit it would be cool to give everyone the same equipment, or perhaps have a list of allowed equipment that people can collect ahead of time.
Thanks for the link, Dullahan! Veeshan, baby.
Yeah I'm not sure gear should be standardized either. I definitely see what people are saying about some guilds funneling all good gear to a few characters for weeks before the tournament. That's unfortunate or everyone else. But I really think the BOTB should be as organic as possible. For one thing, especially with the proliferation of situational gear, how would VR decide what gear should be available in the tournament? But more importantly if all the gear is the same, then should all the levels be the same for it to truly be solely based on skill? I think that might lead to some weird situations where someone wins the BOTB tournament but then in a regular group setting, they're kinda underperforming because they just haven't had the time to grind out all the best gear and levels. And then people would be like "what the heck? I thought this guy was the BOTB?"
I say life's not always fair - better to just keep it simple.
Bazgrim said:Yeah I'm not sure gear should be standardized either. I definitely see what people are saying about some guilds funneling all good gear to a few characters for weeks before the tournament. That's unfortunate or everyone else. But I really think the BOTB should be as organic as possible. For one thing, especially with the proliferation of situational gear, how would VR decide what gear should be available in the tournament? But more importantly if all the gear is the same, then should all the levels be the same for it to truly be solely based on skill? I think that might lead to some weird situations where someone wins the BOTB tournament but then in a regular group setting, they're kinda underperforming because they just haven't had the time to grind out all the best gear and levels. And then people would be like "what the heck? I thought this guy was the BOTB?"
I say life's not always fair - better to just keep it simple.
I can see where you are coming from Bazgrim. The ideas/scenarios I am suggesting or speaking of I am assuming all the participating characters in the BOTB are max level to take any kind of level disparity or lack of skills/abilities that are level-based out of the equation. Any non-max level competition/bracket would just be a "best of the rest" or "best of the twinks/alts" to me if we're being honest.
I'll admit that it would be odd for some "random" person to enter the tournament who really hasn't put much effort into gearing/improving their character and then win it because they were given the same set of equipment as someone else. Then as you said, join a random group sometime afterwards and be a bit underwhelming and not live up to the "BOTB" moniker/title. That being said, I'd still prefer equipment to play as little into the outcome as possible (not counting strategic/situational/circumstancial planning and preparation)
Again I'm going back to personal experience here and hopefully without sounding arrogant, but I know I was one of the top rogues on my server (skill wise), maybe not the best, but one of the best for sure. I didn't even think about entering the BOTB tournament on my server because there was the rogue representative from my guild and a few other rogues from other hardcore guilds that had drops/quest rewards from places like Plane of Sky and Veeshan's Peak that I didn't have yet that would have given them at the minimum a moderate advantage over me or anyone else not as blessed with equipment as they were.
There was one rogue in particular who was a member of the guild who was my guild's #1 competitor for who was the "best" guild on the server. The rogue was actually an alt of one of the main officers in that guild who had recently been powerleveled and then showered with all of the best rogue-useable loot because that guild (much like mine) was divided into the haves and have nots where it was generally the officers getting the vast majority of the loot (loot council/non-dkp guilds at the time). Where the other members fought over scraps or got hand-me-downs because most people (like me) were willing to forego the chance at loot to be able to experience the high-end, epic raid content that most players did not get to experience.
A rogue friend of mine who had been a rogue from day 1 of EQ like me and who knew the class from top to bottom decided to enter the tournament. My friend was an amazing rogue, but unlike me was not in a guild because he didn't like the commitment and/or stress that could sometimes come with being in a guild. Because of that, he had nothing better than single group dungeon content drops for equipment and no raid-level loot whatsoever. He ended up getting a couple of rounds into the tournament and ended up facing the powerleveled rogue from the raiding guild I referenced in the previous paragraph.
Not long after their battle started, it was obvious my friend was more skilled of a rogue/player than the other guy, as he was putting his full set of abilities/skills to use, had a better strategy and was running circles around the other guy. The other guy still managed to win though because of his vastly superior gear. That guy ended up placing 2nd in the tournament mostly due to him being probably the best equipped rogue in the tournament. The fact a powerleveled, raid gear "twinked" alt almost won the whole tournament and who in the process also beat a friend of mine who was much more skilled of player left a bad taste in my mouth and had me questioning the "best of the best" idea/moniker. So admittedly I am a bit biased from personal experience, but I would like equipment to only play a minor role if such an idea/concept/event was put into Pantheon. That being said, I can see where you are coming from as well.
Good post Raelsmar. Thats an exception to the norm. I also have seen that myself. Is it fair? No. Not when you explain it like that. Everquest was always sorta heavily reliant on gear. Aftathott said that himself (the leader of Afterlife on Mith Marr/Drinal) after beating our bard in the finals. Our bard was more skilled. Twisted better songs. Never forget that as i was the bard my guildy beat to go to finals. Thott was beat but his gear saved him when you crunnch the numbers. Remember that site that you updated your gear so poeple could show it off? Started with an M. Malistro or something like that??. The only thing envy for gear really does is fuel the inner desire to be better in most situations. Competition breeds success.
Consider that the BOTB isnt a pee contest. Its an event that brings a community together. Thats it sole purpose. Yes it will stroke some others egos. And yes people will have hurt feelings about it however everyone knows that your friend shoulda beat him. They watched how well he played. Thats the rogue i would ask to join me in a group. Not a heavily geared out metocre player.
raelsmar said:Bazgrim said:Yeah I'm not sure gear should be standardized either. I definitely see what people are saying about some guilds funneling all good gear to a few characters for weeks before the tournament. That's unfortunate or everyone else. But I really think the BOTB should be as organic as possible. For one thing, especially with the proliferation of situational gear, how would VR decide what gear should be available in the tournament? But more importantly if all the gear is the same, then should all the levels be the same for it to truly be solely based on skill? I think that might lead to some weird situations where someone wins the BOTB tournament but then in a regular group setting, they're kinda underperforming because they just haven't had the time to grind out all the best gear and levels. And then people would be like "what the heck? I thought this guy was the BOTB?"
I say life's not always fair - better to just keep it simple.
I can see where you are coming from Bazgrim. The ideas/scenarios I am suggesting or speaking of I am assuming all the participating characters in the BOTB are max level to take any kind of level disparity or lack of skills/abilities that are level-based out of the equation. Any non-max level competition/bracket would just be a "best of the rest" or "best of the twinks/alts" to me if we're being honest.
I'll admit that it would be odd for some "random" person to enter the tournament who really hasn't put much effort into gearing/improving their character and then win it because they were given the same set of equipment as someone else. Then as you said, join a random group sometime afterwards and be a bit underwhelming and not live up to the "BOTB" moniker/title. That being said, I'd still prefer equipment to play as little into the outcome as possible (not counting strategic/situational/circumstancial planning and preparation)
Again I'm going back to personal experience here and hopefully without sounding arrogant, but I know I was one of the top rogues on my server (skill wise), maybe not the best, but one of the best for sure. I didn't even think about entering the BOTB tournament on my server because there was the rogue representative from my guild and a few other rogues from other hardcore guilds that had drops/quest rewards from places like Plane of Sky and Veeshan's Peak that I didn't have yet that would have given them at the minimum a moderate advantage over me or anyone else not as blessed with equipment as they were.
There was one rogue in particular who was a member of the guild who was my guild's #1 competitor for who was the "best" guild on the server. The rogue was actually an alt of one of the main officers in that guild who had recently been powerleveled and then showered with all of the best rogue-useable loot because that guild (much like mine) was divided into the haves and have nots where it was generally the officers getting the vast majority of the loot (loot council/non-dkp guilds at the time). Where the other members fought over scraps or got hand-me-downs because most people (like me) were willing to forego the chance at loot to be able to experience the high-end, epic raid content that most players did not get to experience.
A rogue friend of mine who had been a rogue from day 1 of EQ like me and who knew the class from top to bottom decided to enter the tournament. My friend was an amazing rogue, but unlike me was not in a guild because he didn't like the commitment and/or stress that could sometimes come with being in a guild. Because of that, he had nothing better than single group dungeon content drops for equipment and no raid-level loot whatsoever. He ended up getting a couple of rounds into the tournament and ended up facing the powerleveled rogue from the raiding guild I referenced in the previous paragraph.
Not long after their battle started, it was obvious my friend was more skilled of a rogue/player than the other guy, as he was putting his full set of abilities/skills to use, had a better strategy and was running circles around the other guy. The other guy still managed to win though because of his vastly superior gear. That guy ended up placing 2nd in the tournament mostly due to him being probably the best equipped rogue in the tournament. The fact a powerleveled, raid gear "twinked" alt almost won the whole tournament and who in the process also beat a friend of mine who was much more skilled of player left a bad taste in my mouth and had me questioning the "best of the best" idea/moniker. So admittedly I am a bit biased from personal experience, but I would like equipment to only play a minor role if such an idea/concept/event was put into Pantheon. That being said, I can see where you are coming from as well.
Yeah I totally know what you mean and tbh I can't really think of a good solution. I'd be curious to hear Brad's thoughts.
LOL in looking at that video, I can't help but laugh at the PvP back then. It was so stiff and one dimensional! Funny thing is, it did not matter.. I remember thinking how cool it was that all of these real life people were all gathered around watching the event.
Talk about bringing social aspects together... this nailed it!
Roenyn said:Good post Raelsmar. Thats an exception to the norm. I also have seen that myself. Is it fair? No. Not when you explain it like that. Everquest was always sorta heavily reliant on gear. Aftathott said that himself (the leader of Afterlife on Mith Marr/Drinal) after beating our bard in the finals. Our bard was more skilled. Twisted better songs. Never forget that as i was the bard my guildy beat to go to finals. Thott was beat but his gear saved him when you crunnch the numbers. Remember that site that you updated your gear so poeple could show it off? Started with an M. Malistro or something like that??. The only thing envy for gear really does is fuel the inner desire to be better in most situations. Competition breeds success.
Consider that the BOTB isnt a pee contest. Its an event that brings a community together. Thats it sole purpose. Yes it will stroke some others egos. And yes people will have hurt feelings about it however everyone knows that your friend shoulda beat him. They watched how well he played. Thats the rogue i would ask to join me in a group. Not a heavily geared out metocre player.
You make some good points Roenyn. I do think the primary intent was to bring the community together and offer a spectacle kind of like the coliseum back in the Roman empire days to entertain people. Some people definitely used it as way to stroke their egos and look down on others and give themselves a heightened sense of importance/superiority.
But you make a really good point, because a lot of people had obviously never heard of my friend as he was unguilded, but many people came to recognize his skill/ability in that tournament. He did get many guild invite offers afterwards (he politely turned them down) and also got added to many peoples' friends list and got a lot of group invites after that too. A lot of "younger" rogues also would contact him for advice/information as well after that.
You have my utmost respect for being a highly skilled bard (the hardest/most complex class to play in early EQ IMO), especially in an era when you had to do all the song twisting yourself before they coded the game to basically do it for you and against the level of competition you mentioned.
I do agree that gear envy does fuel ones (or at least my) inner desire to get better, be more competitive/dedicated and be successful. I had totally forgot about it, but I think you are referring to Magelo's in regards to the player equipment/profile site. That brings back memories of me drooling over other player's equipment haha.
