Forums » Crafting

Crafting Specializations

    • 185 posts
    March 1, 2017 6:07 PM PST

    I kind of touched on this in a discussion on another topic, but will there be specializations?

    A quick "from the past/other games" and then a "what I think would be neat in Pantheon":

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    From the past/other games:
    In WoW back in the day, there were specializations.  I don't remember them all, but I remember that Blacksmithing had 3 (I believe - Sword, Axe, Armor), Tailoring had 3 (I know - Based on Light/Dark/Magic cloth), Leatherworking had 3 (I believe - don't remember the details, though, never was good at leveling LW), Alchemy had 3 (I know - Flasks, Potions, and Transmutation), and Engineering had 2 (I know - Goblin and Gnomish).

    Anyway, the way it worked is at some level of the profession, you could do some quest and you would get the specialization.  That specialization could use some recipes specific to it, but couldn't dip from the other ones' pool.  (Note that there was no benefit to remaining a "generalist" as you got to use NONE of the specialist recipes).  This lead to high level crafters even within a craft having specific things they could do so that, say, a high level Blacksmith wasn't a high level Blacksmith IN EVERYTHING - they were only in their specialization.  Likewise, high level recipes came from various sources and couldn't all be bought from a trainer/vendor, so even two high level crafters in the same specialization might have different things they could make for you so you would need to shop around or if one had some particularly rare recipe, you'd know to go to that guy on the server/in the guild if you wanted that item made.

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    What I think would be neat in Pantheon:

    Kind of like that, just more.  :)

    I would like to see different specializations in crafts (which make sense based on the type of craft) that allow players to become true masters in a specific type of thing.  Recipes should also be like character spells where some are found in the world or through exploration or through raids/dungeons.  It would also be cool if some could be discovered by research or simply trial and error (I have all of these high level parts, it seems like they should combine into a high level sword, let's try it and see what happens - maybe I get a new awesome weapon and the recipe to make it, maybe it is a total bust, or maybe it doesn't make me a new thing that I wanted, but I DO discover or get progress towards discovering something else that I hadn't even thought about).  Granted, this would work better with some things than others (Alchemy/Cooking seem to be professions that would benefit by throwing things together and seeing what comes out, where different herbs and such have primary and secondary and tertiary traits, and so by mixing them in different groups and with different catylists, you can get different results).

    But in addition, the highest level, epic/legendary gear and gear equal to or better than raid dropped gear would require both a specialist AND that specialist to have the recipe AND that specialist to make it to some legendary place in the world (perhaps an anvil or forge somewhere...) in order to try to make the item, and that item might require rare parts, including ones that are refined by the crafter on a lengthy (24-72 hour - 1 week) cooldown, which means it will take time to assemble the parts as well (although you could enlist some other crafters/gatherers to help with that process making forging legendary weapons a guild-wide affair).

    You might also make it where a crafter can go the "Generalist" route, which means they are denied the highest level gear recipies, but they can make the lower tier stuff from all specializations.  E.g. the Axesmith and Swordsmith can make tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3 axes OR swords (respectively), but the generalist smith can make tier 1 axes AND tier 1 swords AND tier 1 shields and etc.  Note the Axesmith cannot make tier 1, 2, OR 3 swords and vice verse for the Swordsmith.

    Because too many games have that "Well, we already have our max level Blacksmith" situation where once a guild has one of each profession at max level, there's really no need for any others, but you also have smaller guilds who could benefit from a generalist (not to mention it's nice when there are benefits and drawbacks to everything).  Though one should also be able to change their specialization by going on a quest to do so, it will require sacrificing their knowledge of their existing specialization in order to do so (with the exception of going generalist means sacrificing all but the tier 1s, etc.)

    This would give players a reason to have more than one character of a given overall craft type due to their branching specializations, and would also give individual players ways to shine.  "Oh, Aule?  Yeah, he's the only person on the server that can make The Two Ring.  But it will take about 3 weeks for all the reagents.  3 days if you can get all the guild crafters to donate their CD to it."

    Oh yes, and I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH:

    The best recipes should not simply be from raid drops.  It's always been stupid to me that the best CRAFTING recipes do not, in fact, come from crafting.  While having some rare recipes come from raids if they make sense to do so (some legendary engineering robot coming from some legeneary [and insane] tinkerer in a wing or as the final boss of a raid is fine...but not all of them should come from that).  It should be possible to get some by actually CRAFTING, doing some kind of crafting research, and/or exploring the world.  Not everything should be about raids and raiding, especially since the greatest crafters of planet Earth seldom came upon their skills by going out and fighting dragons and finding some ancient scroll of uber-sword.

    ...it really doesn't make sense, if you think about it.  While I'm cool with it in some measure, for dedicated crafter players that may not even level their fighting "adventurer class" to max level, they shouldn't be shut out from being a master of the art - because they've actually dedicated themselves to it more fully than a raid character!

    And, above all, crafting recipes as rare raid drops shouldn't be soulbound.  A raid guild who has no crafters should be able to take it and sell it to someone for a king's ransom, or perhaps have a crafting guild they are friends with or even higher out that they will give the recipe to in exchange for making them the item in question.  That sort of thing fosters interaction between players: That whole social thing Pantheon is supposed to be going for.  ;)

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    Ideas range as far as you want to go with them.  Ideas:

    Tailors: Silk, Linen, Cotton or more magical route like Lightcloth or Runeweave, whatever.
    Blacksmiths: Weaponsmiths like Sword, Axe, Mace, etc. and Armorsmith branches like Shieldsmith or Plate/Scale/Chain armor types
    Carpenter/Woodsmith: Staves, Spears, Clubs, Bows, wooden shields, wooden armors, boats(?)*

    *Some major projects like ships could involve multiple professions, for example, Carpenters for the hull and masts, tailors for the sails, etc.

    You get the basic idea.

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    Anyway, was wondering if this was a thing or not, or if this has been talked about (couldn't find anything with the search function that seemed to be discussing it.)

    • 2550 posts
    March 16, 2017 8:45 AM PDT

    I've seen specializations mentioned - not sure if there is any discussion extensive enough that this thread will be closed down but if so the "please see other threads, this one is closed" post will link them.

    My strong bias is for almost anything within reason that encourages having multiple characters. Not anything that requires it - those who want to spend all their time building up one powerful character have a playstyle just as valid as mine - but just encouragement.

    I think it is good for the game in that it keeps those of us that create "alts" playing - and paying - after we have done all that we intend to do on the first character. It keeps lower level areas busier than they would be with just brand new players.

    Specialization - which I too remember from a brief stint in WoW as well as in other games - is good from that perspective. It gives crafters reasons to have more characters than one per crafting profession.

    More importantly it encourages interaction between crafters since it makes it harder for one player to have everything. That whole social thing Pantheon is supposed to be going for. And yes ships and houses and other major products might take quite a few crafters.

    You hit one of my hot buttons too - crafters shouldn't have to RAID in order to CRAFT. Either let the high level recipes be available from sources other than raiding or, not nearly as good, let them be freely sellable. I cannot deny the logic to having a major fire giant base contain a highly unusual recipe relying on fire, but surely this isn't the only copy in the world and what incomprehensible magic would strke dead a character putting it on the broker or standing in the tunnel yelling out for buyers.

    • 1541 posts
    April 12, 2017 1:30 PM PDT

    I like the idea of specialisations. It would make people really consider what they did in the game when it came to crafting and would make high level crafters even more in demand for those really good pieces of loot. I also agree with the fact that not all of the best crafting receipes should come from raid bosses. I like the idea of experimentation in order to find out about that really good piece of loot. In order to balance that experimentation should use a lot of resources that you don't get back and therefore should be really expensive to do. This would mean that the players able to make the really rare items will have invested significant amounts of time and money into getting the ability to make those items.

    I'm basically in favour of anything that makes crafting more in-depth and more satisfying. That means quests, raids, experimentation, working with lots of different players and so and so forth. I also think it is important for crafters to have to work together to make the best gear in the game. If that uber sword of killing can be made by a single crafter it reduces the difficulty significantly. I'd like to see the very best crafted items having to be made by multiple crafters and resource gatherers and because the gear took so many people to make it should be better than the best raid drops in the game.

    I can not stress this enough. In order for crafting to stay useful in the game the absolute best in terms of crafting gear has to be better than the best raid gear otherwise people will just raid and never ask a crafter to make anything for them and therefore people won't bother with crafting because there will be no point in it.

    • 2550 posts
    April 12, 2017 2:50 PM PDT

    Experimenting is definitely something that would be very nice to have.

    >I can not stress this enough. In order for crafting to stay useful in the game the absolute best in terms of crafting gear has to be better than the best raid gear otherwise people will just raid and never ask a crafter to make anything for them and therefore people won't bother with crafting because there will be no point in it.<

    This won't happen. This shouldn't happen. Raiders are often key to a MMOs success and many of them do it for the gear. I am not a raider and don't play this way but Pantheon needs to be good for *them* as well as being good for *us*, That means at a minimum raid drops as good or better than crafting creations for many slots. When I say raid in this contest I mean the most difficult raids not a "tier 1 raid" if the game also has "tier two raids."

    Pantheon, however, aims to have more of a variety of gear than the typical MMO - because some things will be good for one enemy or weather condition and some for another. This situational nature of the "best gear" makes it easier for the developers to toss both raiders and crafters some juicy bones. Best-in-slot or almost BIS items can in some cases drop in raids and in some cases be craftable. There won't just be 10 "best" items there will be many more to spread around. In fact perhaps a few (as discussed in a different thread a while back) can come from ordinary dungeons - maybe as a rather rare drop - to encourage people to go there.

    So our push should be to have a fair number of these top items craftable but asking that they all be craftable will just generate a lot of opposition we don't need to have.

    • 1541 posts
    April 12, 2017 4:43 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Experimenting is definitely something that would be very nice to have.

    >I can not stress this enough. In order for crafting to stay useful in the game the absolute best in terms of crafting gear has to be better than the best raid gear otherwise people will just raid and never ask a crafter to make anything for them and therefore people won't bother with crafting because there will be no point in it.<

    This won't happen. This shouldn't happen. Raiders are often key to a MMOs success and many of them do it for the gear. I am not a raider and don't play this way but Pantheon needs to be good for *them* as well as being good for *us*, That means at a minimum raid drops as good or better than crafting creations for many slots. When I say raid in this contest I mean the most difficult raids not a "tier 1 raid" if the game also has "tier two raids."

    I have to strongly disagree with you I'm afraid. I'm fine with raid mobs dropping really good loot but the absolute best gear in the game should come from a synogy between raiders and crafters. Some of the ingredients should drop from the highest end raid mobs and they should be turned into usable items by the highest end crafters. That keeps everyone happy and makes sure that crafters are always useful when it comes to making items for high end raiders.

    The idea that the best loot should only come from raiding is a bit old fashioned and resulted in crafting being a bit pointless in EQ. They did add some crafting requirements for high end gear in later expansions but it wasn't as in-depth as I would like to see. I'm looking for crafting to be as hard or if not harder than raiding full time. Crafting should require real skill and when players think about hardcore players the first thing that should come into their mind is crafters.

    dorotea said:

    Pantheon, however, aims to have more of a variety of gear than the typical MMO - because some things will be good for one enemy or weather condition and some for another. This situational nature of the "best gear" makes it easier for the developers to toss both raiders and crafters some juicy bones. Best-in-slot or almost BIS items can in some cases drop in raids and in some cases be craftable. There won't just be 10 "best" items there will be many more to spread around. In fact perhaps a few (as discussed in a different thread a while back) can come from ordinary dungeons - maybe as a rather rare drop - to encourage people to go there.

    So our push should be to have a fair number of these top items craftable but asking that they all be craftable will just generate a lot of opposition we don't need to have.

    You make some good points here.

    I'm not opposed to really good items dropping from raids. What I am opposed to is really good items ONLY dropping from raids. We need to make sure crafters are sought after by players even if they are the highest level raiders in the game otherwise crafting will become pointless and no one will bother to do it. In my way of looking at things crafting should be just as hard if not even harder than being a hardcore reader so why shouldn't crafters be rewarded with being able to produce some best in slot gear?

    I'm not for a moment saying that crafters should craft all the best in slot gear. That would be stupid. Just that they produce some of the best in slot in gear. That way both crafters and raiders win and it should keep everyone happy.

    I also agree with you about the fact that Pantheon will require more than one set of gear so there is a lot of freedom open to the developers to split best in slot gear between group content, raid content and crafted content. Hopefully that will make the game fun for everyone and give everyone a chance to get some nice loot.


    This post was edited by Cromulent at April 12, 2017 4:43 PM PDT
    • 3263 posts
    April 12, 2017 5:55 PM PDT

    I imagine we'll see many different versions of "BiS" gear depending on what we're fighting.  Ideally, the majority of this situational gear will come from a combination of overland exploration (group content), group dungeon crawls, questing, crafting, raiding, difficult solo timeline (rites of passage), ultra rare world loot table drops, etc.  The more spread out, the better.  

    • 1541 posts
    April 12, 2017 6:54 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I imagine we'll see many different versions of "BiS" gear depending on what we're fighting.  Ideally, the majority of this situational gear will come from a combination of overland exploration (group content), group dungeon crawls, questing, crafting, raiding, difficult solo timeline (rites of passage), ultra rare world loot table drops, etc.  The more spread out, the better.  

    I guess you are right. The more variation the better. I'm just very focused on crafting at the moment so that is what I am concentrating on. Of course I'd like the rest of game to be fullfilling as well. I'll be along with everyone else to level up and raid. It is just that I will also do a lot of crafting.

    • 2550 posts
    April 12, 2017 7:48 PM PDT

    >What I am opposed to is really good items ONLY dropping from raids. <

    In this we are in total agreement and that most definitly includes recipes. The only point I was trying to make was that it can't go the other way either with really good items ONLY available from crafters. Raiders and high end crafters each need a niche in terms of providing the top items.

    The mistake modern games tend to make is having all or almost all the good items come from raids. No to that, a hundred times no!

    • 1541 posts
    April 12, 2017 8:03 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    >What I am opposed to is really good items ONLY dropping from raids. <

    In this we are in total agreement and that most definitly includes recipes. The only point I was trying to make was that it can't go the other way either with really good items ONLY available from crafters. Raiders and high end crafters each need a niche in terms of providing the top items.

    The mistake modern games tend to make is having all or almost all the good items come from raids. No to that, a hundred times no!

    Oh I agree completely :). A mix of where to get the best items is best whether that is from raiding, crafting, group content or whatever. You know what they say "variety is the spice of life". I just want to make sure that crafting isn't overlooked.