Forums » Crafting

PvE components, but crafted weapons/armor

    • 70 posts
    December 27, 2016 8:00 AM PST

    It would be kind of neat if there were NO weapon/armor drops in the wild; just components for crafting were dropped.   Then crafters could build weapons/armor from those components and sell them to NPC vendors who in turn would make those items available to any player who wants to purchase those items.  So all weapons and armor would either be purchased from vendors or crafted by crafters.   If there isn't a particular sword you want on the vendor, then you could buy a lesser (stock) sword from the vendor, head out into the wilderness to gather components and come back and craft the sword you want yourself (or give the components to a crafter to do it for you).

    • 79 posts
    December 27, 2016 8:23 AM PST

    bluefoxcode said:

    It would be kind of neat if there were NO weapon/armor drops in the wild; just components for crafting were dropped.   Then crafters could build weapons/armor from those components and sell them to NPC vendors who in turn would make those items available to any player who wants to purchase those items.  So all weapons and armor would either be purchased from vendors or crafted by crafters.   If there isn't a particular sword you want on the vendor, then you could buy a lesser (stock) sword from the vendor, head out into the wilderness to gather components and come back and craft the sword you want yourself (or give the components to a crafter to do it for you).

    Personally, I'm really not a fan of nothing dropping, in fact I've never been a fan of the best gear is crafted by players.  For me the exploration and discovery of ancient places and powerful gear has always been the best experience.  Obviously we all can't be as lucky as those from the Hobbit and find two ancient and powerful swords randomly in a troll cave, or the ring of power which found its way to another deep hole in the ground but the excitement of discovery, exploration and victory in the dangerous places of the world should be rewarded.  I mean what is a dragon's treasure if its not cummulated equipment from long dead adventurers?  I don't want to beat a dragon and find a rare lump of coal.

    That being said I do like the reforging idea from the Lord of the Rings, where a broken sword is reforged - keeping its magic or having it enhanced.  If someone wants to try and improve a weapon or change it from a one to two handed sword by using materials from a similar weapon or otherwise ancient materials found that sounds like the job for a player crafter.

    After all haven't most of us chosen the profession of adventurer?  I never really liked the character being the best at both but dependent on others.  Questing bears as much, or more, enjoyment for me as creating and frankly it would do a better job of holding the economy in check.  I was never really a fan of the high priced greed of farmers, or farmer crafters taking over the markets and running up the price on everything.

    • 70 posts
    December 27, 2016 8:35 AM PST

    I can't disagree with anything you said.  I think I like the idea of a completely player driven economy, including the creation of all armor/weapons, more than I would actually like it in practice.  

     

    But truth be told, I've never been a fan of buying or selling anything from auction houses in games.  

    I usually run a full gammit of characters to make sure I've tried every race/class/profession and I always have my crafters to make my own equipment.  But I usually feel a little let down because for 90% of the game I can find better stuff than I can craft.... or I can craft better stuff than I can wear and by the time I'm levelled enough to wear it, I have found better for that level.  I have always enjoyed both adventuring and crafting, but my crafting almost always feels more like something I do for the achievements' sake than actual real use except making arrows or food/drinks.  I'm kind of hoping for something that would make my crafting feel more useful to my adventuring without just making crafters who focus on using an auction house to make money to help buy stuff I can't make for my adventurers.  

    • 70 posts
    December 27, 2016 8:40 AM PST

    Maybe it would be better if all looted items were damaged in specific ways making them underperform until altered by crafters?  Like the armor doesn't fit quite right. Might still offer the same protection, but affect your movement until adjusted to fit your body size?  it's not like everything that drops from an Orc should fit a Gnome without some alteration


    This post was edited by bluefoxcode at December 27, 2016 8:42 AM PST
    • 1848 posts
    December 27, 2016 3:20 PM PST

    I believe the current plans are to allow crafters to enhance each dropped weapon. And the mobs will drop crafting supplies when appropriate.

    • 581 posts
    December 29, 2016 8:50 AM PST

    Dwyvyrn said:

    That being said I do like the reforging idea from the Lord of the Rings, where a broken sword is reforged - keeping its magic or having it enhanced.  If someone wants to try and improve a weapon or change it from a one to two handed sword by using materials from a similar weapon or otherwise ancient materials found that sounds like the job for a player crafter.

    I love these types of things. Lets say we find a sword hilt or something in a dungeon somewhere then later during that dungeon we find a mob that just so happens to have the blade of said sword impaled in it. Maybe with the proper materials and skill set we can reforge that blade into something great. Maybe even make it better than it was. Of course, once the first person figures it out the mystery would be gone from it but it's great to be one of the first who do search for the truth :D

    • 296 posts
    December 29, 2016 1:53 PM PST

    Kind of against OP's suggestion, if only because humanoid mobs at the very least are usually wearing equipment, so it stands to reason we could loot that equipment. Whether it fits or not when you pick it up is a different story, as maybe you need to reforge a giant's axe into something way smaller for it to be usable.

    For named bosses though, a lot of their mystique is in some of their named items, it would be a shame to take away that feeling. I figure as long as the average boss has a good mix of a few notable equipment pieces + mostly crafting materials (to make, say, several other pieces and/or used to reforge/fit still more pieces) then having non-named mobs basically drop only crafting mats and/or equipment-in-need-of-fitting is ok.

    • 70 posts
    December 29, 2016 2:14 PM PST

    I believe Aradune wrote somewhere if you see a mob using a weapon, you should have the chance to loot it which I completely think is the way to go.  So I am less in love with my opening statement and more intrigued with the idea of anything you find a crafter can improve just a bit.  Whether it is just sharpening an axe or applying some padding to your armor to make it more comfortable or tailoring it to your size, I believe there are plenty of things that could be added into the game to make it so a weaponsmith isn't always making swords one step weaker than what you find in the world every time you go out adventuring.  

    I also don't want to feel like I have to max out my crafter as quickly as possible so he is making suitable gear for my adventurers so I am anxious to see how balanced the crafting progression is compared with the adventuring progression and quality of items dropped.

    • 1848 posts
    December 29, 2016 2:27 PM PST

    In the December stream, it was pretty clear that crafters could upgrade almost any weapon found. 

    I just hope snakes aren't dropping swords as loot.

    • 70 posts
    December 29, 2016 2:34 PM PST

    Yeah, as usual, care needs to be taken to make sure cloth wearers can drop clothy things, scaled things drop scaley things, animals shouldn't be carrying coins, etc.  I do think I heard that mentioned in the stream too.

    • 101 posts
    February 23, 2017 7:38 PM PST

     

    bluefoxcode said:

    I believe Aradune wrote somewhere if you see a mob using a weapon, you should have the chance to loot it which I completely think is the way to go.  So I am less in love with my opening statement and more intrigued with the idea of anything you find a crafter can improve just a bit.  Whether it is just sharpening an axe or applying some padding to your armor to make it more comfortable or tailoring it to your size, I believe there are plenty of things that could be added into the game to make it so a weaponsmith isn't always making swords one step weaker than what you find in the world every time you go out adventuring.  

    I also don't want to feel like I have to max out my crafter as quickly as possible so he is making suitable gear for my adventurers so I am anxious to see how balanced the crafting progression is compared with the adventuring progression and quality of items dropped.

    Your original post reminds me of how MUDs were, but NPC's were dedicated player ran shops where they made their prices, crafters would get together to charge base prices then have sales and such per shop owner. Was a blast.

    You'll have us crafters to be maxed out to help with that.

    • 4336 posts
    February 24, 2017 3:38 AM PST

    It's funny (and also a little inspiring) to see a thread started by a member of the community when they were just a follower, but now they have the official VR badge haha.

    • 185 posts
    February 26, 2017 6:55 PM PST

    Well, it depends.  Perhaps you've heard of EVE Online?  MOST of the economy in that game is player drive.  Players mine asteroids, other players process the raw ore into useful minerals, other players craft those into Tech 1 (basic) items and sell them, some players gather moon minerals (requires setting up another specialized line of refining minerals, this time from moons and requires a space station with the proper arrays and facilities), refine them, and make Tech 2 (improved) items, and still other players can add planetary items (from mining/refining colonies they set up, complete with refining process lines) and wormhole delvers can bring back rare and exotic parts, and all of this can be refined into Tech 3 (highly advanced) items.  Of course, there's also random salvage that can be attained through salvaging ships/equipment that is used to make rigs that alter a ship's parameters, chemical agents that can be harvested from gas clouds to make stim boosters, and so on and so forth to allow many lines of progression, refining, further refining, and selling of items.  And there's a huge market for all the items, from the Tier 1 to the Tier 3.

    But, there are also highly advanced Deadspace and Faction items available as well.  Deadspace items require defeating high level NPCs in PvE encounters and have a CHANCE to drop them, and they sell for a lot but the supply is somewhat limited due to the low drop rates.  Faction items are items you can gain by farming Loyalty Points with a faction, which you can turn in along with money and a base item to be given either their more advanced (usually between Tech 2 and Tech 3/Deadspace quality) items, or a blueprint so you can make said item after gathering the materials yourself (or buying them from the market).  Faction items usually have lower skill requirements than Tech 2 items while producing a similar level of potency.

    There are also meta levels on everything, from Tech 1 (meta level 1) trough Tech 2 (meta level 5) through Deadspace (varies, but meta levels 7-9) to Tech 3 (which is TECHNICALLY meta level 10, but not listed as such, I don't think).

    Everything, even Deadspace stuff, can be refined into minerals (though you'd be an idiot to do that with most Deadspace or even T2 or better stuff).  Meta levels 2-4 and 6-9 are drops/faction respectively, with the higher metas being appreciably more rare (and expensive).

    Though there are some things seeded to the market by NPCs (mostly skill books based on the way the game works and some other stuff), though even there there is a market - you can take a skill common to one faction, buy a few copies, travel across the galaxy to another faction's area that doesn't sell that skill book, and put it on the market with a markup and sometimes make a decent profit for the effort (many people will pay for convenience.)

    .

    So, in a word, EVE already does something KIND of like the OP, in a way that is mostly organic, invloves every industry player - from the small, newbie zone low level miner (even the lowest level ores/minerals are used in advanced projects, and in massive quantities - you can just also obtain them in larger quanties/more bang for your buck from the higher level mining zones) to the most advanced, multi-boxing super rich player from Beta with dozens of accounts to manage all of his extensive supply lines and manufacturing operations.

    ...but, any PvEer can go out and run a high level PvE encounter and have a chance for a Deadspace item to drop.

    Oh, and did I mention NOTHING is soulbound in that game?  If you have the skills to use it, you can buy/beg/borrow/steal/kill and loot another player for it...and the equip it to your ship and use it.  (This also goes for ships, though they only are lootable if they were smaller ships being carried in the cargo hold of bigger ships and the loot gods smile upon you.)

    .

    As long as it's reasonable that drops are based on what you're killing, with a chance at getting something nice, I'm okay with that.

    Your ordinary bandit should drop ordinary swords, leather armor pieces, and maybe a ring or trinket, with a small chance of something somewhat decent (a slightly magicked ring, perhaps).  Your ordinary cow should drop ordinary T-bone.  Your ordinary T-Rex (?!)?  Okay, he might drop an epic sword.  Those pesky adventurers do get themselves swollowed whole from time to time.  :)

    But on the whole, highly magicked items should be a process of raw materials (or basic item) -> refined item + magic materials -> magic item.

    That is, you buy or loot a basic sword or some basic mineral ores to make one and have a crafter make you one, then you get some more fancy materials and have a crafter upgrade it to a better quality, then you use that, in combination with some more magical/exotic materials and perhaps a weapon enchanter, and from that holy union of awesome you get your +2 sword of bug slaying!  :)

    ...which, not being soulbound, you can sell on the market once you've finally cleared the Hives of M'journ.  :)

    But I like the idea of adventurers working in tandem with craftsmen - otherwise, why even have crafting in the game at all?  I also DO like the idea of epic/legendary items being found or rare drops.  I have some fond memories of a random zone/world drop blue item popping up in my loot box in WoW back in the day (when those items were actually useful even at end-game or would sell for huge amounts for reasons OTHER than transmoging).  So a dragon horde should have some nice loot drop, and even a common cow might have chanced to eat a magic ring that was in the patch of grass it was munching on.

    ...but, the loot needs to make sense, and it needs to be rare, not so common as to displace crafted gear entirely.

    I hate it when games make it where th most awesome and best crafted gear money can buy...is, at best, equal to entry level gear that you can farm from dungeons before running a raid.  At best, this makes the crafters a little bit of money off of people that want to hurry and make their character/alt raid ready.  At worst it makes crafters and crafting items (other than potions/food/buffing items) entirely pointless to even bother having in the game.

    I'd rather not see that.

    • 81 posts
    February 28, 2017 4:21 AM PST

    Tho i like crafting to be important for the game, i also think that some good gear should be dropped.

     

    I think it makes more sense that a master blacksmith made a very good sword at the end of his life, and not another one. Another master wizard made this epic cloak, etc. I think it's more immersive this way.

     

    So why should a player be able to make ALL the best gear in the world ? We all know everyone will be max crafting level sonner or later. Then all these players would be able to make all the best gear, neglecting everyone else, and every NPC or mob, except for gathering ingredients. These characters would then be above everyone in Terminus, except other players at the same level. I don't like this idea. I think your hero, however powerful he may be, must have limits. He may make some good gear, but not better than a weapon enchanted by a god, for example, or a legendary NPC crafter character from this game.

     

    You're a hero, yes, but you should not be above every NPC and every character you see ingame crafting while you're fighting 75% of the time. It's better this way.

     

    That implies you can get good gear drops possibly if not better at least same level and different, from drops. And you should not be able to craft everything, like you never do in a single life.

     

    Cheers

     

     

    • 43 posts
    March 1, 2017 1:55 PM PST
    • Humaniod type Mobs should drop Armor and Weapons usable based on size.  For example, if you kill some NPC Ogre that drops a BP allow other "large" races to wear it.

     

    • Non magic items should also be able to be taken down to raw components at a station.  For example, you loot a non-magical battle axe.  It should be able to be taken down to steel, piece of wood from the handle and a leather strap.

     

    • Non-Humanoid type Mobs such as snakes, wolves and porcupines should drop items of varying quality that can be crafted into extraordinary items.

     

    • Epic Mobs can be thought to have hoards and maintain a loot table that includes various crafting items, spells, armor, weapons, other items and a lot of coin that can be split across a raid force.

     

    • Legendary items that only drop once per server and are found in obscure locations via lengthy quests.  Make these automatically update your name with a title that is recognizable by other people.

     

    Just my thoughts.


    This post was edited by kaifus at March 1, 2017 1:56 PM PST
    • 185 posts
    March 1, 2017 5:40 PM PST

    Gideon said:

    I think it makes more sense that a master blacksmith made a very good sword at the end of his life, and not another one. Another master wizard made this epic cloak, etc. I think it's more immersive this way.

     

    So why should a player be able to make ALL the best gear in the world ? We all know everyone will be max crafting level sonner or later. Then all these players would be able to make all the best gear, neglecting everyone else, and every NPC or mob, except for gathering ingredients. These characters would then be above everyone in Terminus, except other players at the same level. I don't like this idea. I think your hero, however powerful he may be, must have limits. He may make some good gear, but not better than a weapon enchanted by a god, for example, or a legendary NPC crafter character from this game.

     

    You're a hero, yes, but you should not be above every NPC and every character you see ingame crafting while you're fighting 75% of the time. It's better this way.

     

    That implies you can get good gear drops possibly if not better at least same level and different, from drops. And you should not be able to craft everything, like you never do in a single life.

     

    Cheers



    I guess the problem I have with this thinking is that you think a master can only make ONE awesome item in his life.  The legendary Japanese swordsmith Masamune made many swords, as did his contemporaries and the generations before and after him.  There must have been a dud from time to time, but they were considered to be of exceptional quality on a consistent basis, with some being "perfection".  This defeats your idea of the Silmirils - that a master craftsman can ONLY ONCE make the pincacle of his craft and NEVER AGAIN.  (Reference being the Silmarillion).  While it makes good fantasy to believe that a crafter pours so much of his soul/essence into his master work that he can never do something similar or better, this isn't borne out in reality.  The reality is that while many great builders, archetects, craftsmen, etc will make SOMETHING that they or others consider the height of their career in the craft, this isn't to say they only make one such thing, or even that the one such thing is their best work.  Indeed, many craftsman, artisans, artists, musicians, writers, etc., have a career of consistently amazing works.  You may argue they are an exception to the rule, but the clear takeaway is that it doesn't expend one's life force to make awesome things, and it can be done many times by gifted crafters.

    A second issue is that you say people spend 75% of their time fighting, but this also isn't true.  A lot of people in a game like what Pantheon hopes to be will spend 75% of their time socializing and exploring.  By this token, your argument means that none of us should ever be higher than level 10 as a fighter because we spend so little of our time fighting.  Additionally, there are those "hardcore crafters" out there in games that basically refuse to level fighting/adventuring skills, instead pouring their playtime into leveling crafting professions.

    A third issue is that you seem to think everyone will have all crafts mastered on a single character, complete with all recipes in the game on said single character.  While that may be true in a game like FF14, even WoW doesn't have that.  Many games limit you to a couple professions per character, and while you can buy basic recipes from skill trainers, advanced ones are found as world drops or from conducting research with the craft.  In this way, your argument that "we'll all sooner or later max all crafts" is wrong.  Additionally, even among those that have masted a craft, they may not have the same recipes as someone else who has mastered that same craft.  So while you may have two master blacksmiths, only one can make that epic quality battleaxe you want.  The other one might be able to make an epic sword or epic brestplate, but not that epic battleaxe.

    ...this last point is ESPECIALLY true if there are crafting specializations.  It doesn't have it anymore, but WoW used to have Blacksmithing split into different classes of smith based on specialty (axes, swords, maces, or armor...something like that, I don't remember the specifics).  Likewise with Tailors.  Likewise with Leatherworkers.  Likewise with Alchemists (Potions, Flasks, and Trasmutation were, I believe, their three specializations).

    What all this means is that no ONE character will be outfitting himself in a complete set of Celestial-Touched Battlegear+Weapon.  Even if they COULD farm all those materials themselves (many of which will come from raids and exploring far and dangerous areas of wilderness), they couldn't craft all the pieces on their single character.

    So basically ALL of your concerns and complaints go away, except the "masters only make an epic piece once in their lifetime" argument, which I defeated in my first paragraph.

    .

    Now, as I said before, I think there SHOULD be good quality gear out there from dragon hordes and the like.  They shouldn't be things you find in every other dungeon.  And there should be craftable gear that is near equal to it in stats/quality/etc.  But this isn't saying your average Sword specialized Blacksmith (Swordsmith?) can poop out Celestial Touched Greatswords left and right.  They still will take time to gather and refine the materials, possibly with some refining having a 24-72 hour cooldown so it somewhat gates how quickly the base materials can be refined for use in the epic weapon, and this near-legendary Swordsmith either got a rare drop recipe himself or bought it off of someone for a king's ransom.  Oh, and he also needs to get into a legendary anvil in the heart of a raid, meaning he'll either have to be a high level player himself or have an accomplished guild willing to bring him to the Heart of the Mountain in order for him to use the legendary Forge of Balrogs in order to make it.

    So your fear of the comonality of legendary weapons is also highly unfounded.

    .

    I just don't see the point in having crafters if, in the end, their crafted items are "second class items" that no one wants.  True, they shouldn't be making god-touched items left and right: But god-touched items shouldn't be droping from RAIDS, either.  They should be items that there's only a handful of in a given server to begin with!

    But as for epic or near-legendary or even legendary items?  A dedicated/lucky enough craftsman, with the right materials, the right specialization, and the right equipment/forge/Heart of the Mountain...should be able to make epic and legendary items.  They should be able to do it more than once.  But it should take time and effort.

    .

    There's zero reason raiders should be the first class citizens of EVERY game, especially one like Pantheon that is designed around community and not specifically focused on "end-game".

    • 331 posts
    March 3, 2017 12:25 PM PST

    bluefoxcode said:

    It would be kind of neat if there were NO weapon/armor drops in the wild; just components for crafting were dropped.   Then crafters could build weapons/armor from those components and sell them to NPC vendors who in turn would make those items available to any player who wants to purchase those items.  So all weapons and armor would either be purchased from vendors or crafted by crafters.   If there isn't a particular sword you want on the vendor, then you could buy a lesser (stock) sword from the vendor, head out into the wilderness to gather components and come back and craft the sword you want yourself (or give the components to a crafter to do it for you).

    I like the idea of no weapons or armor dropping. From either regular fights or raids. The only weapons I think should drop are the epic weapons. I think the idea of buying weapons then upgrading them from a weaponsmith or a crafting player would be awesome. The only way to get a better weapon is to find drops or resources to make your current weapon better. Make it level based so someone cannot get a bunch of resources etc and make thier alt a weapon that is beyond his/her ability.

     You must turn your weapon and resources in to make it better. They should also have fails in this that you will lose your resource but the weapon will stay intact. This could also work with armor and other gear.

     The higher the level the more rare the resource/drop is.  You could add resource/drops work with raid gear quality also.Maybe in this way a player who is not in a large guild or is a solo player or small group player without a lot of time on his hands and cannot play hours at a time to do raids can also get better gear and items at his/her own pace.

     Make the items drop off solo mobs as well as rare mobs and resources be a rare find.

     But yes, make most weapons and armor/gear upgradeable and available to all. The cost of upgrading should be in line with the priceing of a better weapon.

     Maybe spell upgrades can work in the same fashion. like:

    Minor heal is bought

    Heal is aquired by turning in a heal spell and an emerald to a dealer or crafter to make the spell upgrade. The emerald could be a 60% chance to drop off any caster

    Major heal  you need to exchange a heal spell and a diamond to crafter to make it. The diamond may have a 40% chance to drop off a caster above a certain level, etc.

     I may be way off but these spells could also be drops but not to often. You flood the market with drops and the become cheap. Make people work for what they want.