Forums » Crafting

One Tradeskill Per Player?

    • 1325 posts
    April 5, 2018 2:57 PM PDT

    Xanthe said:

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! *falls of cliff*

    I know this may be an unpopular stance, but crafting is my raison d'etre in MMOs and I've always loved being able to do it all (or as much as possible) on my own - making things from start to finish and knowing it was all me is just very satisfying. It's all very well saying "well you need to have player cooperation", but when NOBODY is making a certain bottleneck item, or is holding it hostage at a price that only the richest of the rich from the biggest mega-guild can acquire, then you're stuffed.

    If it's restricted so that you can only enjoy a portion of what's available craftingwise, I'm going to be very disappointed :(

    It's easy enough to make crafting alts, it just might take a little extra time...but it seems like a reasonable hinderance if you absolutely have to avoid working with other people (though I think you might run into issues in other areas of the game as well if that is your stance).

    If you are in an active guild it should be easy enough to find someone who is making that "bottleneck item".  You are going to have to level your character to advance far in crafting anyway...and since soloing will be limited, you are going to need a guild.

    I haven't seen many people who have your viewpoint.  Most people seem to understand that they will be required to rely on other players...in all aspects of the game.


    This post was edited by philo at April 5, 2018 3:06 PM PDT
    • 4 posts
    April 5, 2018 11:53 PM PDT

     

    It's easy enough to make crafting alts, it just might take a little extra time...but it seems like a reasonable hinderance if you absolutely have to avoid working with other people (though I think you might run into issues in other areas of the game as well if that is your stance).

    If you are in an active guild it should be easy enough to find someone who is making that "bottleneck item".  You are going to have to level your character to advance far in crafting anyway...and since soloing will be limited, you are going to need a guild.

    I haven't seen many people who have your viewpoint.  Most people seem to understand that they will be required to rely on other players...in all aspects of the game.

     

    When I say "do it all myself", I mean only in the sense of crafting. I am very aware that Pantheon is not a soloer's adventuring game, and most of my favourite memories from games are from group and guild shenanigans :) And yes, if alting is the only way to do all crafts, then I imagine I shall, very used to it!


    This post was edited by Xanthe at April 5, 2018 11:54 PM PDT
    • 28 posts
    May 2, 2018 8:08 PM PDT

    Why don't they let you learn all the professions but limit the amount you can have active? I was thinking they could do something like this.

    You are a Max level Blacksmith with the Weaponsmith specialization but want to change professions. You could just change it and loose everything you know about your hard earned craft. When you go to a trainer asking about forgetting the old professions the trainer will give you a quest. This quest would talk about storing you knowledge of Blacksmith and Weaponsmith. This quest would have you to acquire "enchanted" pages (Ink as well) for you to add into your Living Codex.  The knowledge you have gain in Blacksmith can then be stored. You would also have to get more of these pages if you want to store the Weaponsmith specialization. 

    This could be explained in the lore as well. You could say it is in someway of taking knowledge and storing it on the pages in your Living Codex. It effects your memories so it can only be done every so often. That would make it so the player can't just change it when ever they want to but can keep what they have already earned. You could do this with every profession and specialization of said professions. There could even be some kind of award for having all the profession skills mastered and stored in the Living Codex. These awards could range from a title or an ability. The pages you have to get could even be a hard to find crafting recipe for the Scribe profession. This would allow those want to change professions do so but not have a jack of all trades and have a lore as to how they could do it.

    Doing something like this would require you to engage in the community to get the necessary resources to make the items needed. This would also add in some content for those who only like to do crafting.

    They could even make it a legendry quest for Crafters. But if they did that it would allow you to keep your old profession or professions if repeatable. To get the quest you would have to max your current profession and its specialization. The completion of the quest could also award you with a buff to your new or old profession.

    • 55 posts
    May 2, 2018 11:12 PM PDT

    Cocomojoe, I like your idea simply because what if I choose a profession that later on I decide I really hate and wish I had taken another one instead for whatever reason.  I'd hate to be stuck with a profession on my main character that I thought would be awesome, only to find out later on that I hate it. Due to my fear of picking a bad profession I'd also be happy if they just offer a quest to allow me to completely reroll professions without the memory and Living Codex portion.

    Your idea is very interesting to me.  

    • 323 posts
    July 18, 2019 3:24 PM PDT

    Maybe an artificial limit isn't needed, if the crafts themselves were limited in your proficiently of the whole craft.

    Meaning, that just because your a blacksmith doesn't mean you should be able to make all the highest quality parts. Some dependency on other blacksmiths, one who has focused on perfecting hilts, another who has focused on perfecting blades, ect,, and you a blacksmith who has focused on perfecting the Assembly of all the parts.

    Any one of those blacksmith could complete the entire process, but each would have separate skill levels in varying areas of the craft. Something like this would allow anyone to attempt to make all the possible crafters need to be self sufficient, but would be so difficult to acheive that it would negate the effects from the very very few who were will to buy the several accounts needed.

    • 1697 posts
    July 18, 2019 4:56 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    Maybe an artificial limit isn't needed, if the crafts themselves were limited in your proficiently of the whole craft.

    Meaning, that just because your a blacksmith doesn't mean you should be able to make all the highest quality parts. Some dependency on other blacksmiths, one who has focused on perfecting hilts, another who has focused on perfecting blades, ect,, and you a blacksmith who has focused on perfecting the Assembly of all the parts.

    Any one of those blacksmith could complete the entire process, but each would have separate skill levels in varying areas of the craft. Something like this would allow anyone to attempt to make all the possible crafters need to be self sufficient, but would be so difficult to acheive that it would negate the effects from the very very few who were will to buy the several accounts needed.

    None of that precludes me making enough alts to max out skills in everything blacksmith related.   There will be some number of players who will do exactly this if there is a one tradeskill limit.  I know I will do that.

    Any person doing any tradeskills should be incorporating some mark-up in any crafting process, even if the process is just a single step.  I'd rather pay myself that markup by doing all those tradeskills myself than be force to utilize greedy players.  Smart crafters will examine opportunity costs for any tradeskill and, so far, it is more beneficial to do everthing yourself than to pay others to do some part.

    • 323 posts
    July 19, 2019 2:09 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    Maybe an artificial limit isn't needed, if the crafts themselves were limited in your proficiently of the whole craft.

    Meaning, that just because your a blacksmith doesn't mean you should be able to make all the highest quality parts. Some dependency on other blacksmiths, one who has focused on perfecting hilts, another who has focused on perfecting blades, ect,, and you a blacksmith who has focused on perfecting the Assembly of all the parts.

    Any one of those blacksmith could complete the entire process, but each would have separate skill levels in varying areas of the craft. Something like this would allow anyone to attempt to make all the possible crafters need to be self sufficient, but would be so difficult to acheive that it would negate the effects from the very very few who were will to buy the several accounts needed.

    None of that precludes me making enough alts to max out skills in everything blacksmith related.   There will be some number of players who will do exactly this if there is a one tradeskill limit.  I know I will do that.

    Any person doing any tradeskills should be incorporating some mark-up in any crafting process, even if the process is just a single step.  I'd rather pay myself that markup by doing all those tradeskills myself than be force to utilize greedy players.  Smart crafters will examine opportunity costs for any tradeskill and, so far, it is more beneficial to do everthing yourself than to pay others to do some part.

     

    Assuming such a system was introduced, You might be able to on one or even two accounts max out all the possible areas in one crafting profession, but you still would likely be dependent on other professions for the various material's without buying several accounts.


    I Think its important to stop the self sufficient crafters, through whatever means necessary, because to me its no different than an adventurer class completing raid content solo.

    • 7 posts
    July 19, 2019 4:04 AM PDT

    I honestly don't think self-sufficiency should be punished, especially crafting-wise, but I am on the side of wanting a limitation of the crafting. If the 2017 newsletters on crafting and gathering are still similar to the plan they are going with, then I am all for it.

    There's so many factors in play with crafting than just wanting to craft everything because you love crafting, or wanting a limitation to crafting because you want interdependency between players.

    There's also the difficulty in leveling up a character making you more invested in that character, kind of making you decide whether or not you want to devote time in another character. You could create as many alts as you want to, and there will definitely be those who will.

    You also have the market and economy. Too many games I have played as of late where omni-crafters practically control the markets.

    Today we have mutliple platforms to communicate with each other. I'm quite positive, come the launch of Pantheon in the future, there will either be or have already been made a crafting hub discord server for players to gather on. So I'm sure dealing with greedy players will be less common than dealing with business minded crafters.

    On the other side of the spectrum, you also have immersion. Having a limitation of crafting offers more immersion and attachment to your character (or characters for altoholics).

    • 1697 posts
    July 19, 2019 1:55 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    Assuming such a system was introduced, You might be able to on one or even two accounts max out all the possible areas in one crafting profession, but you still would likely be dependent on other professions for the various material's without buying several accounts.


    I Think its important to stop the self sufficient crafters, through whatever means necessary, because to me its no different than an adventurer class completing raid content solo.

    VR has already hinted that a tradeskills like Blacksmithing will have two paths..ArmorCraft or WeaponCraft.  You pick one.  So if I wanted to maximize my blacksmithing options, I will have 1 character be an ArmorCrafter and the other a WeaponCrafter.  So that I could interact with both simultaneously, they would be on separate accounts.  If, just for argument sake, we get 5 character slots per account and each tradekills has two mutually exclusive paths and each tradeskill path needed support from 1 other tradeskill, I could be wholly self sufficient in 5 whole tradeskills.  As someone who will definitely have multiple accounts I fully intend to be be as self sufficient as possible not only when it comes to the tradeskills I choose to work on but in adventuring when I don't feel like being social.

    • 50 posts
    July 26, 2019 12:31 PM PDT

    In theory,  I like the idea of limited number of gathering and crafting skills.  On paper it is optimum.  Makes people work together etc etc etc.

    BUT that being said I have seen this in many games and it always works out the same...  those that love crafting make enough chars to do it all

    themselves anyways.  Even to the point of owning several accounts.

    So save the headache of cross char banking,  multi boxing to trade stuff and craft stuff for your other chars and simply allow it all on one char.

    I would not be against an experience penalty for subsequent crafts like say 90% exp gain rate past a certain level for 2nd skill past that level and 80% rate for 3rd etc

    but no point in artificially trying to push something that players will always work around anyways.

     

    • 1 posts
    August 7, 2019 2:27 PM PDT

    I would much rather they allow any number of tradeskills per character.  They can make them difficult to master, and require a whole pile of time and effort to do so, but if you're looking for the game to be more immersive, actually preventing someone from spending the time and effort to master skills seems entirely counterproductive.  In real life (or any tabletop RPG), there are not hard limits on what you can learn and work with.  While time may hampre your ability to pursue mastery in a skill, it's not like there's a magical rule that precludes you.  Including one would basically be the same as a school looking at you and saying something like "Oh you learned Math?  I guess you can't try and figure out how to use Reading and Writing now"

     

    I personally end up leveling pretty much every craft in every game I play, and it's a far more enjoyable and entrancing experience when I don't constantly have to constantly switch characters to progress my crafts.  While I understand that some people may feel it will detract from the sense of community that may be established, I feel as though arbitrarily forcing people to interact on the basis of requiring material gain from each other will not establish a solid community in and of itself.  I tend to have far better interactions with random people I interact with due to farming in the same area, or trying to fight bosses with, than I do with some random guy I'm buying materials off of.

     

    tl;dr:  Please don't make me level a bunch of alts in the name of trying to make me close to my drug dealer (material vendor)

    • 1419 posts
    August 8, 2019 12:52 AM PDT

    So, as most everyone knows I do a lot of crafting in games.  I want to make two statements that I think are critically important to the long term health of the game.

    1) If a new player starts playing 2 or 3 years after launch and picks up a crafting profession, they should have a viable market for the goods they can make.  They should not be at a competitive disadvantage because they don't have a ton of alts leveled up, or because they don't have all the crafting professions leveled up.

    2) As an established crafter, I should never be able to do everything myself.  I don't care whether it's with alts, or multiple skills on my character.  I don't care if it takes me 40 hours or more of playtime a week.  The game needs to force me to rely on others - not only adventurers, but other crafters and gatherers as well.

    As I mentioned, I do a lot of crafting in a lot of MMORPGs.  Here are some experiences I had:

    - In EQ2, I went the route of creating alts to do all the tradeskills.  It took a lot of time to work them all up, but once I got it going, I was able to make things with all of my characters and completely bypass the interdependence that was built into the game's original crafting system.  Yay, right?  I had a friend that enjoyed crafting but didn't really want to make a bunch of alts.  He was really unhappy that after a while, he wasn't able to buy many of the components that he needed for his own crafting at reasonable prices, because all the "serious" crafters just made their own stuff with their stable of alts.

    On the flipside, after a few years, much of EQ2's crafting was absolutley pointless - the items would never sell.  The market was so glutted with crafter alts dumping their grind items for little more than the cost of the fuel, that no one could hope to make any money unless they were dealing in high level rares.

    - In Vanguard at it's launc and for several years thereafter, I also went the route of creating alts to do all the tradeskills.  However, in that game, I found that it took far longer to craft items than EQ2, and realistically I could only really devote time to a couple of characters for tradeskills.  Many of my guildmates who enjoyed crafting were in the same situation.  The crafting process was just too involved to be able to run every single profession on alts - at least, unless you literally had all day every day to sit online and craft.  As a result, we found that unlike EQ2 where we didn't really need to coordinate crafters in the guild, in Vanguard we really did.  We were constantly making things for each other because while most of our members had one or two crafting professions, none of us were able to be self sufficient.

    I left Vanguard after about 3 and a half years (I lost faith that SOE was even trying to work on the game), but even though it was starting to show signs of becoming top-heavy and of demand slowing down, the economy was still pretty healthy when I quit.  Crafters could still generally sell their items, and new crafters had a fighting chance to get started in the economy at that point.

    - In FFXIV, which I have played since it's relaunch almost 5 years ago, I have every crafting job maxed out on my main character.  Originally, this simply happened because their crafting system was set up to encourage/require it for high end crafting.  Even though I didn't particularly have an interest in some of the crafting professions, I did them anyway to learn their abilities - as did many 'serious" crafters back then.  These days, that's no longer actually required, but a great many people still try to become "omnicrafters" specifically because they don't want to have to rely on anyone else to make something.

    Surprisingly, the crafting economy in FFXIV still works at low and mid levels, to an extent - but only for some professions, and only because they make equipment that others use while leveling up "alt" classes on their characters.  At least two of the eight professions are unable to sell just about anything until high levels, and two others only have a very small number of items that are market-viable.  This inequality can make it really hard for newer players coming into FFXIV and trying to craft, unless they get advice from someone else about the market first.  Of course, the vast majority of players in FFXIV simply grind up their crafting using macros or quest turn ins, but most of those people aren't actually ever going to really participate in the economy as sellers either, so I'm not sure if they count.

    - In SWG, which I am playing on an emulator, I have three characters with the ability to craft (there are four different crafting professions in the version of the game I'm playing, each with 2 areas that they sort of have to choose between for specializing in).  I don't actually have time to craft on three characters, I just made the extras because it helps me to gather larger quantities of resources.  Given that I'm good at what I do, right now I devote probably 80% of my game time in SWG simply to restocking things that have sold on my primary and secondary characters, and very slowly adding new things to my vendors with both of them.  As much as I would love to operate an emporium that sells everything people could possibly want, I recognize that it simply will not be possible to do by myself.  That means that in my spare time, I try to work with and mentor other crafters in the game to help them get established - because even though I really don't have the time or ability to go make top-quality armor or combat droids, if someone else has their shop selling those things next to mine, that's pretty much a win for everyone.

    In case it's not clear, I absolutely believe that crafting interdependence is a necessary component of maintaining a healthy economy and community long term.  As many have pointed out, people will create alts to try and bypass interdependence, so I think the only way to make interdependence really work is to insure that the act of crafting items is involved and time-consuming enough that people simply don't have time to do everything themselves.  So yes, one profession per character.  And make it something that takes time to do.

    • 949 posts
    August 8, 2019 4:56 AM PDT

    If leveling crafting only requires a mountain of materials and clicking as fast as possible to get through all the menus while dropping finished products on the ground then yes you really need to limit one craft per character.  I would even be tempted to implement something similar to WoW where tradeskills were capped based on adventuring level so that level 1 city mules could not be master crafters.

    That being said I hate that style of crafting system and if crafting is like that in Pantheon I will skip it, and likely Pantheon if a comparable MMO shows up with real crafting.

    If leveling crafting actually takes time (crafting not harvesting as harvesting can just be outsourced) and is an interactive process closer to adventuring combat then restricting a character to only one crafting class is not as important.  If the design goal is to have multiple crafters be interdependent then design group crafting where each player must pick which craft they are representing.  Crafting need not require a group all the time and certainly not when you are just practicing but when crafters are setting out to make highly desired player equip able items group crafting should be the norm just like it takes a group to farm a dropped item.

    • 1697 posts
    August 8, 2019 7:56 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    If leveling crafting actually takes time (crafting not harvesting as harvesting can just be outsourced) and is an interactive process closer to adventuring combat then restricting a character to only one crafting class is not as important.  If the design goal is to have multiple crafters be interdependent then design group crafting where each player must pick which craft they are representing.  Crafting need not require a group all the time and certainly not when you are just practicing but when crafters are setting out to make highly desired player equip able items group crafting should be the norm just like it takes a group to farm a dropped item.

    This can still be done by a single person running multiple accounts.

    Not a single idea given so far about this need/desire to force tradeskill interdependency cannot be worked around by a single person running multiple accounts.  Now VR might try to say that crafting, like they have said about adventuring, is going to be so complex that it is very difficult (but not impossible) to multi-box but some portion of the player population will still do it.  I will.  I will multi-box adventuring and will multi-box tradeskilling.  I'd highly doubt VR could introduce anything that would outright stop it.

    • 949 posts
    August 8, 2019 8:29 AM PDT

    Ideally a real time interactive group crafting process would require the same level of player engagement of each participating crafter as group combat requires.  If combat can be multi-boxed then multi-boxed crafting I suppose would be possible as well.   A player would still need to put in the time to grind each crafter to the required skill and ability level on each account and pay the cost of the accounts.

    I imagine though that a good interactive crafting process would be difficult to multi-box if each different craft had its own issue detection and a list of abilities to use to either counter an issue or advance the crafting process towards a specific target.  I’m not really sure we could or should specifically design around multiboxing.  If it is an issue in crafting then it is one in combat as well and we have lots of threads talking about that already.

     

    If you want to play by yourself to that level then I don’t feel it’s right for me to tell you not to have your fun that way. I would personally like to play on server where everyone agreed to only single box both in combat and in crafting but other than a draconian detection and banning process it would mostly be an honor system.

     


    This post was edited by Trasak at August 8, 2019 8:42 AM PDT
    • 1697 posts
    August 8, 2019 8:45 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    Ideally a real time interactive group crafting process would require the same level of player engagement of each participating crafter as group combat requires.  If combat can be multi-boxed then multi-boxed crafting I suppose would be possible as well.   A player would still need to put in the time to grind each crafter to the required skill and ability level on each account and pay the cost of the accounts.

    I imagine though that a good interactive crafting process would be difficult to multi-box if each different craft had its own issue detection and a list of abilities to use to either counter an issue or advance the crafting process towards a specific target.  I’m not really sure we could or should specifically design around multiboxing.  If it is an issue in crafting then it is one in combat as well and we have lots of threads talking about that already.

    What you are describing, if I understand it correctly, is simultaneous multi-tradeskill crafting. That would be difficult to handle by a single person, yes, but not impossible.  But I do not think such a process will be in Pantheon.  So while the Armorsmith may very well need Leather Straps make by a Leatherworker, those straps would need to be manufactured simultaneously where the failure of one would affect the other.

    • 949 posts
    August 9, 2019 4:34 AM PDT

    Until Corey gives us a real preview anything is possible.  If crafting for a single person is an interactive and responsive mini game then it is not too big of a stretch to make some recipes or specific crafting stations require multiple crafters running at the same time.  If it’s a simple one input one output combine button system there is no real way to make crafting player interdependent in any meaningful way.  Where exactly Pantheon crafting will end up between the extremes of a crafting simulation and WoW menu style auto sort, auto use, auto repeat (should include auto destroy option) is anyone’s guess and may be subject to feedback in Alpha and beyond.

    • 337 posts
    August 11, 2019 10:39 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    This can still be done by a single person running multiple accounts.

    Not a single idea given so far about this need/desire to force tradeskill interdependency cannot be worked around by a single person running multiple accounts.  Now VR might try to say that crafting, like they have said about adventuring, is going to be so complex that it is very difficult (but not impossible) to multi-box but some portion of the player population will still do it.  I will.  I will multi-box adventuring and will multi-box tradeskilling.  I'd highly doubt VR could introduce anything that would outright stop it.

    Trying not to get into the financial aspect of things, if "a" goal is to have as many paid accounts "playing" the game. Then although they are all owned by one character, the game has still reached its goal. 

    It is much less likely however that you'd see hundreds of players following your lead there Vandraad. So from that view, it's a healthier solution, if another goal from the dev's is to really zoom in on interdependency by designing 1trade/1character. And especially so if groupcrafting is a thing. 

    The majority of players would only have 1 or two accounts (unless free restricted accounts are in the pipeline). And so in a 1-1 design, most players would not be able to cover all trades at the same time online. 

    Pantheon might be more timeconsuming then other mmo's for crafting as well. That on it's own might have a large impact on the rate new crafters are initiated and "maxed out". 

    With a small reveal on crafting, a lot can be said. So we'll have to wait and see for now.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at August 11, 2019 10:40 PM PDT
    • 30 posts
    August 21, 2019 8:08 AM PDT

    Krissvalnor said:

    My comment and preference for a limited number of tradeskill allowed per character comes from the same desire the devs have to foster community and cooperation, if you can do everything yourself why bother to go see another crafter for a component you need for your own craft ?

     

    But this will just foster an enviroment in which you have a plethora of alts so that you can do everything anyway and still be a master of it all. The Devs idea is cute, but utterly off the mark of what always happens.

    In FFXIV I have one Character that can do it all. In WoW I have alts that can do it all etc. etc. etc.
    I do not rely on others and any serious crafter will always come to this conclusion. Relying on others means that you bleed profit (I'm not saying it will be free if I do it myself, but I won't cut in to my profits by doing it myself.)

    If I need to make a sword that sells for 1g, but cannot supply the hilt because it is carpentry. I would have to buy it. Said Hilt costs 20 silver. Instead of profitting a whooping 1 gold, I only profit 80s off my item and therefore lose 20% of potential profit. I would rather get an alts carpentry up and then make that hilt myself earning 1g and thus a 25% increase in profit.


    This post was edited by Ashreon at August 21, 2019 8:14 AM PDT
    • 1181 posts
    August 23, 2019 7:56 AM PDT

    Correct, Ashreon, that's been my exact experience as well.
    And it's made worse when people who make components (like the hilt in your example) that others need will inflate their product by 10-20 or even 100 times the actual value in mats, fuel, and/or time. (and in really bad implementations, also manipulate/corner the market on anyone trying to sell cheaper)
    In some games, It's actually faster and cheaper to take a few hours and a few gold, or even (in EQ1's case) the entire cost of buying ONE of those "hilts" to completely level up, in crafting, another alt of that tradeskill.
    And then, voila!, you don't have to ever pay those extortion level prices again. :)
    Finally, by the current public info, VR has no problem with 1 player doing it all, they just don't want one character doing it all.  It's unfortunate they've chosen yet another design that is historically proven to fail.

    • 1697 posts
    August 23, 2019 9:48 AM PDT

    The decision to buy some component off another player vs doing it yourself always comes down to a single question: Which approach is less expensive for me to take such that I minimize my costs and maximize my profit. 

    We've all heard the phrase 'Time is money'.  Crafting activities in these games is very much subject to this rule. Just because you do something yourself does not make it free.  Your time has a cost, but is the cost of your time less than what someone else believes their time is worth?  In many instances, your time is always viewed as less expensive to yourself than someone else's cost for their time.

    For me, it is alwasy less expensive, from a time-cost perspective, to pay for multiple accounts and raise those other tradeskills myself than to pay for someone elses time to raise those same skills.  I would rather spend my in-game currency on other, non-tradeskill related things. 

    Lastly, once a tradeskill is learned, you never lose it.  There is never an ongoing cost with keeping a tradeskill at its skill cap. It is once and done.  From that point on my only costs are wholesale for those components available from NPC merchants and bonus loot gleaned from my normal adventuring activities.  Someone else specifically working on tradeskills will forever add a mark-up because of the time they spent raising the skill.  Their costs to me never even come close to wholesale.

    And lastly, and I've said this before, why should I pay you $X+Y% mark-up when I can do it myself and actually enjoy the experience of the tradeskill process?

    • 1419 posts
    August 23, 2019 10:03 AM PDT

    Vandraad, Vjek, and Ashreon:

    Honest question for the three of you - 

    Do you think fewer people will create a stable of crafting alts in lieu of relying on other players, if it takes several hundred hours invested on each alt in order to be able to supply yourself with everything you might need?  Or not really?  Basically, is the amount of time you have to spend, per-character, a variable in the equation, or is the calculus simply that it's always easier to spend time than it is to purchase things from strangers?

     

     


    This post was edited by Nephele at August 23, 2019 10:04 AM PDT
    • 1181 posts
    August 23, 2019 10:23 AM PDT

    In my experience, it's always better to invest the time to be self-sufficient, due to the inevitable future extortion.

    However.. in our guild, we typically have volunteers who are willing to become the default guild "whatever" crafter, and they get all the mats from everyone, for their tradeskill.  So, we attempt to use the efficiency of scale to alleviate some of the time sink.

    If it takes several hundred hours per alt, and you need some, many, or all max tradeskills (one of each) to accomplish something at max level, as an individual?  That would be a problematic design, in my opinion.  If they go that route, our guild will handle it, but it would be a punitive design that would limit the target demographic, possibly too much.
    Under those conditions, it might take several years of dual boxing for a single individual to reach the goal of max tier self sufficiency.  It was the same in EQ2, but I still saw it.  It was rare, but it did happen.  I didn't do it, I just picked one and then had alts for interdependent sub-components, as necessary.  But some people were just crazy enough to max them all, even if it meant multiple accounts.
    At some point, when the game is in decline, this becomes a requirement if you don't want to face endless frustration.

    While the game is popular, and if fuel can only be purchased by faction?  It might be possible that, for a brief moment in time, ... nope, you know what, it's never going to happen, imo. :)  Greed trumps co-operation, every time, in MMO economies. (so far)  Extortion for interdependent subcomponents will be there from day 1, outside of guilds.  History and my experience tells me their current design will suffer the same fundamental problems every other design that has tried this exact same thing has suffered from.

    • 1697 posts
    August 23, 2019 11:57 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Vandraad, Vjek, and Ashreon:

    Honest question for the three of you - 

    Do you think fewer people will create a stable of crafting alts in lieu of relying on other players, if it takes several hundred hours invested on each alt in order to be able to supply yourself with everything you might need?  Or not really?  Basically, is the amount of time you have to spend, per-character, a variable in the equation, or is the calculus simply that it's always easier to spend time than it is to purchase things from strangers?

    I'm going to presume that 'several hundred hours' will not be needed to progress a tradeskill to whatever max level they decide to start with.  There will always be a subset of the population that will, regardless of personal time expendature, will do exactly this..maximize as many tradeskills as they can.

    It is, nearly always, a less expensive route to do it yourself than to rely upon others.  Why?  Your costs are always fixed.  It always takes the same amount of time to harvest that resources.  The NPC always sells that component for the same amount.  Your costs to yourself are wholesale.  Everyone else's costs to you are retail.  The more you keep your costs in the wholesale column, the more you benefit when you then sell to the retail market.

    Basically, if you want to be as rich as possible, do everything yourself and sell to those people who don't want to do that.  A sucker is born every minute.

    As Vjek said, his guild has tradeskill volunteers.  My guild will be no different.  It is a requirement that if you are doing tradeskills, and a guildmate needs something crafted you either sell it to them at material cost or, if they provide the materials, the manufacturing is free.  Furthermore, guildmates are highly encouraged to donate tradeskill items they come across to guildmates specifically so they can minimize their costs while skilling up which only further benefits the guild as a whole.

    • 1419 posts
    August 23, 2019 12:21 PM PDT

    Fair enough.  Here's where my "several hundred hours" came from:

    I am hypothesizing that progressing a crafter in Pantheon might require quite a bit more than simply grinding out skillups.  I have a feeling you'll need to track down recipes, many of which may be tough to get, and likewise that you may also have to obtain better tools and equipment to use while crafting, which may also be tough to get.  That doesn't preclude the possibility of eventually having one of everything, but it does make it take longer.

    It sounds like that wouldn't really stop people from eventually achieving self-sufficiency, based on your responses.  In the short-term, it would encourage guilds to work together to support each other.

    Is that actually a bad thing?  Being dependant on others within your guild is still interdependence, after a fashion.

    I have more thoughts, but I think it's really important that we define the experience we actually think would be acceptable for Pantheon.  Do we truly want a system where players are forced to buy things from strangers at potentially inflated prices, or do we want a system where players can join communities and make friends and get the items they need more easily, or do we just want to throw all that out and make it really easy for everyone to do everything?

    I don't know that there's a perfect solution here so I'm curious what you all think is the best path forward - recognizing that any path VR chooses will carry consequences down the line that everyone will have to deal with.