Forums » Crafting

One Tradeskill Per Player?

    • 326 posts
    November 19, 2017 9:37 AM PST

    antonius said:
    ...
    If it takes, for example, 6 months to master a craft, then making your own pocket secondary crafter should keep you behind the curve for 6 more months while other crafters are producing at the top level by buying from others. 
    ...

    Progenity aside, apprenticeship mechanics? grouping for crafters?
    So skill ups in crafting level in group efforts would be rewarded (also being member of a specific skill craft, crafting guilds?)
    Would add to the social game.


    This post was edited by Rydan at November 19, 2017 9:38 AM PST
    • 326 posts
    November 19, 2017 9:45 AM PST

    More on topic.
    If I may add something to the middle ground and/or (locked) fray...
    Aside limiting the number of tradeskills per character.

    What if (or when) 1 tradeskill  would be required for a character?
    Then a character could be allowed to fill that requirement by choosing a traditional big hard skill.
    But could perhaps fill that requirement by choosing from a set of race\class\cultural small easy skills.
    Or both big and small (2 skills).

    Then adding:...
    If 1 skill of choice could be linked to the XP level? (/expecting outburst, lol) For example the chosen small easy type skill be tied in.

    Ofcourse such linked skill should not be too invasive on the non tradeskill player and take too much time. Then such player would limit itself to the basic set of race\class\cultural small easy skills.
    (envisioning race\class\cultural would be a contributary element to the main skills)
    Maybe an example.
    Fletching being the main tradeskill.
    Race: Water (Dark Myr) type tips for arrows.
    Class: Magic imbuing skill for arrows.
    Cultural: Color or shape effects for arrows.

    • 2466 posts
    November 21, 2017 11:14 AM PST

    I'd say 1 tradeskill per character does a lot to foster interdependence. Instead of one player maxing multiple on a character and doing it all themselves they have to rely on others, because making crafting alts for the others isn't likely realistic for the majority of crafters. If it takes significant time to level up then making alts would just leave them with low/beginner skill level in their crafts until they spend all the time climbing character levels. 

    • 20 posts
    November 22, 2017 4:31 PM PST

    Personally I want trade skills to be limited per a player.  I remember playing in EQ2 making skill books and needing to find other crafters to make some of the ingredients that go into crafting for me.  I hated it at first, I hate talking to strangers and wasn't in a good guild to get stuff crafted from.  Used the afk player shops to buy some of the items I made until I got talking to a couple of the people I bought some of the items from.  After talking they agreed to sell me certain item needs at reduced prices and would send me a certain number of items Cash on Delivery which I could then take out when needed and when they recieved the money they would send me another set.  Was great, and we even formed some great groups together.

    Limiting traderskills per a character makes a MMO better.  Could there be other methods that are less restricting, yes, but I doubt players would enjoy them as much.  A blacksmith for example will probably get out of practice if they don't use their skills as often so I could see a system that reduces a blacksmith's skill level 1 point every few days.  Would mean that in order to be a master everything you would have to use every skill on a regular basis, also sucks for casuals.  However it could only apply to people who choose more than 1 profession, perhaps with greater losses per a profession.  You can be a master jack of all trades but you'll be working like hell to be a master jack of all trades.  However personally I don't like this idea as I think it's just another variable to get right, just how fast skills degrade.

    The only thing that I would personally desire is that harvesting only skills have their own limits so I don't have to choose between being a harvester or a crafter.

    • 138 posts
    November 23, 2017 9:42 AM PST

    An interesting idea could be allowing professions depending on your class. I.E. high strength classes could learn high strength professions like smithing and mining, high dex classes could learn high dex professions like sewing and harvesting, high int classes could learn the arcane professions... so on and so forth. ovbiously there would be overlap in the class<->profession table as a lot of professions are based on more than one attribute. This would also give reason to use the progency system, as you could have the progeny be able to learn the craft of their parents to a degree based on their parents' skill level. So after enough grinding of professions and reproducing (progeny'ing?) you could eventually learn all the tradeskills to a moderate degree but you could only ever be terrific at whatever professions your class is good at.

    • 20 posts
    November 23, 2017 1:37 PM PST

    As others have said I too would be against any system that wants to restrict tradeskills to specific classes.  I would rather not have to be a warrior to be a blacksmith or a mage to be an alchemist.  I also wouldn't use the progeny system to make a mage blacksmith as it still wouldn't work being a blacksmith just to suck at it because I'm a mage, I might as well not be a blacksmith.

    • 138 posts
    November 23, 2017 3:28 PM PST

    Nedrith said:

    As others have said I too would be against any system that wants to restrict tradeskills to specific classes.  I would rather not have to be a warrior to be a blacksmith or a mage to be an alchemist.  I also wouldn't use the progeny system to make a mage blacksmith as it still wouldn't work being a blacksmith just to suck at it because I'm a mage, I might as well not be a blacksmith.

    Convenience is what kill MMOs to begin with. challenge, teamwork and adventure are what we desire, not simplicity and convenience. If you what to be a mage, be a mage.. if you need blacksmithing done, hire someone. out of ALL the high fantasy story and lore out there.. what is the percentage of blacksmiths who could cast cone of cold? alchemists who could take a hit from an ogre and brush it off? seamstresses who could crush boundler with their fist? .. I understand reality logic is not supposed to always be applied, as it is high fantasy after all. Regardless, we should at least stick to some sort of "high fantasy logic", or the who system just becomes another teddy fest where people get their feelings hurt because they have to pay someone 3 gold to make a spring loaded spike trap so they can snare a monster in order to run in circles nuking it. uhg .. long sentences.

    Make it challenging! Make it rewarding! Make it matter!

    • 91 posts
    November 24, 2017 5:36 AM PST

    I would like to see two tradeskills per character. One primary and secondary. with this it helps community portion of the game by allowing player to help each other out. At the same time gives the players two skills to work on.

    • 830 posts
    November 25, 2017 12:21 PM PST

    I just hope crafting is as difficult to level up as is adventure exp.

    If a player wants to get into a second tradeskill, the it's should be twice as hard. 3rd one?  4 times as hard...ect..

    • 9 posts
    November 25, 2017 2:44 PM PST

    At least a primary & a secondary would be my vote.  I agree with previous posts they should not be easy to level up in and could even be harder to level anything past the primary.

    • 23 posts
    November 25, 2017 3:15 PM PST

    Here are the problems I see with limiting the number of tradeskills to 1 per character, made exponentially worse if it is one per player.

     

    If a craft requires components crafted by another tradeskill, then finding someone with that tradeskill will be much harder as there are far fewer of them.

    • Example: If there are 1000 players, and 10 tradeskills then on average there "should" be 100 players with each tradeskill. But not everyone is going to concentrate on the trade skills, and not everyone is going to be in your same faction. Also, it is unrealistic to think that it will really be distributed evenly. You could end up with 2 alchemists out of that 1000 if the items they make aren't highly desirable outside being sub-components for other crafters. Who wants to spend all their time crafting with the only sence of accoplishment is they helped someone else make epic crafted item X?

     

    It raises the prices of crafted goods to Insane levels.

    • It is simple supply and demand, the reduced number of crafters of any given item means there is a smaller supply of finished goods produced by that craft. Those who can produce it will then be able to charge much more as there is more competition for buying that item.
    • This is made worse with the above example. You have those two alchemists, they produce something that is needed by say a weaponsmith to make Sword of Killing, that all the warriors want. So now all the Weaponsmiths are turning to those two alchemists, and the alchemists can charge whatever they want for that component. The price the alchemists charge must be added to the final cost of the weapon, but only a few of those weaponsmiths are able to get their hands on that component from the alchemist, so even less of the swords get made, making it "reasonable" for them to charge even more for the sword.

     

     

    The decisions on limiting tradeskills can have a massive effect on the player economy. In some games where there is a hard limit, it drives the prices to such insafe levels that new players just give up on ever even dreaming of aquiring gear that should be easy to obtain, gear that is esentual to their ability to progress at a resonable rate, and even their ability to find groups as is shown with wow's stupid gear score obbsession. (I was once told I can't join any raids untill I get gear that is exclusivly obtained via raids....)

     

    It is all fine wanting more player interaction in the game, but sometimes you have to accept that some aspects of the game might work better if you let players be a bit more self sufficient with it. I am not saying that everyone should be able to make everything, for one, that could make it so crafting all your own gear is the only way you are getting any of it, with crafters being too busy making all of the best gear for themselves. There is sure to be a happy medium, or at least a tollerable one inbetween only one per player and all charactesr can craft everything.

    • 71 posts
    November 26, 2017 3:24 AM PST

    drakebrimstone said:

    Here are the problems I see with limiting the number of tradeskills to 1 per character, made exponentially worse if it is one per player.

    If a craft requires components crafted by another tradeskill, then finding someone with that tradeskill will be much harder as there are far fewer of them. 

    It raises the prices of crafted goods to Insane levels.

     The decisions on limiting tradeskills can have a massive effect on the player economy. In some games where there is a hard limit, it drives the prices to such insafe levels that new players just give up on ever even dreaming of aquiring gear that should be easy to obtain, gear that is esentual to their ability to progress at a resonable rate, and even their ability to find groups as is shown with wow's stupid gear score obbsession. (I was once told I can't join any raids untill I get gear that is exclusivly obtained via raids....)

    It is all fine wanting more player interaction in the game, but sometimes you have to accept that some aspects of the game might work better if you let players be a bit more self sufficient with it. I am not saying that everyone should be able to make everything, for one, that could make it so crafting all your own gear is the only way you are getting any of it, with crafters being too busy making all of the best gear for themselves. There is sure to be a happy medium, or at least a tollerable one inbetween only one per player and all charactesr can craft everything.

     

    This was the problem when EverQuest ][ first launched its crafting system (granted I loved how it was a mini-game that could kill you), Alchemist controlled all the other crafting professions because they needed the components from them to craft their own products. Eventually  they dumb downed the other proffessions so they didn't need to relie on Alchemist to make there products anymore. Limiting people to just one profession while can promote interdependancy, I've rarely seen it much outside guilds and even then its usually only to help key crafters like potion, food and drink crafters out for raids. EQ was the only game I have ever seen that allowed a player to be as many professions as they wanted on one character, but did everyone do that no, but it also helped people get to know those players when they needed something to always go where is so and so, I never see them on because they where a alt crafter and played there main more then the alt crafter.

    No matter what system we go with, all on 1, 1 per character etc. I will strive to have every profession on 1 character or only my main which I hope makes the profession most needed and able to gather materials for my alts which I'll only play sparenly to level crafting or get a feel for another class so my main class preforms better when i play with that class. Remember, the more a person has to harvest for there main or alt professions the less bag space they have meaning more trips to the town and this will lower thier ability to level both adventure and crafting professions.

    • 26 posts
    December 19, 2017 6:59 PM PST

    By making mastery of a craft very difficult, costly and labor intensive you could just allow all crafts to be available on 1 character.  Knowing that Mastery of one could take months or a year or play time. Meaning that to master all of them would take that much more effort, which imo is acceptable because you had to earn it.

    Where as if crafting mastery was too easyily obtained and everyone could do them all the utility of it and market value would just fall through the floor, which I would not be a fan of.

    If crafting skills are limited to 1 per character I would expect the demographic of this game to roll as many alts as it would take to have the skills they desire at their finger tips.  I would be more in favor of making craft master more exclusive via, rare drops, rare materials, and difficulty.  That way you can be looked up to as achieving mastery from the community.

    • 111 posts
    December 20, 2017 10:09 AM PST

    A simple solution would be to increase the amount of "experience" necessary to level individual crafting skills.

    Example:

    1 Tradeskill = Normal experience modifer.

    2 Tradeskills = Take twice as long to level up.

    3 Tradeskills = Take three times as long to level up.

    4 Tradeskills = Take four times as long to level up.

    (etc)

     

    In other words.

    • - If you only have 1 tradeskill, you can level it up to max at a normal pace.
    • - If you pick up 2 right off the bat, it will take you twice as long to max both of them. (Three times longer for 3, etc)
    • - If you only have one, leveled up to max, then took on a second, the second would take twice as long to level up as the first. (and so on)

     

     

    Just ideas...


    This post was edited by Bonechip at December 20, 2017 10:10 AM PST
    • 5 posts
    December 21, 2017 3:08 PM PST

    I am for having all of the tradeskills on a single character. Just because it is available, doesnt mean that everyone playing will master every tradeskill. I know in Everquest very few people initially leveled all of the tradeskills until the shawl quest came along. You will definitely have the players that will master as many as possible, but that doesnt mean they will never interact with other people during the process. If anything, I would guess that they would be quite popular and have people contact them contantly or try to recruit them. Whether it is buying raw materials or selling finished products to players I am sure there will be plenty of chances for interaction. 

    That said, I definitely want there to be difficulty in leveling tradeskills. I dont want to be able to pick up a tradeskill 6 months into the game and have it leveled to max within a day or 2 just by throwing coin at it. I like the idea of adding experience penalties for each additional tradeskill, but after allowing 2 at normal experience. 

    • 85 posts
    February 19, 2018 7:37 AM PST

    Alic said:

    I would not like to be restricted by arbitrary limits I would rather have a tradeskills take a huge amount of time andduring resources in order to master.  this would in turn do two things, for the most part it would keep most of the community with the desire to only work on one or two tradeskills since the time investment and resource investment would be high.  it would create a "limit" all on its own at least for the vast magority with the game telling you u just can't do it.

     

    Your comment is by far the best solution to creating interdependence amongst the crafting community.  You can limit players to 1 tradeskill per character and they will in turn create as many alts as their are tradeskills.  The solution is instead to create tradeskills that require a large amount of effort and skill to become proficient.  If designed properly, even the most dedicated Pantheon crafter may at best be able to be competitive at perhaps two tradeskills and will then need to rely on others to provide crafted items that they are not able to make themselves.  This will help to create a very vibrant and competitive in-game economy.

    • 123 posts
    March 7, 2018 10:45 AM PST

    I'm still struggling to read all of this, but in the end I like to "craft" in a game. If I'm locked to one or two crafts, then when I have the time, I will roll ALTS, those alts will mainly sit in town though. Generally when I've been locked to one or two crafting skills, then my "main" character becomes a gatherer, while my alts just craft. I really don't want to play like that, but if you force me to ...

    My preference would be however, to have access to every trade skill and gathering skill for just one character. If it takes years, or if I have to jump through hoops to become master crafter, then that's just fine with me. But don't lock me to just one trade skill please.

    Oh, and for the love of gaming, do not limit my gathering skills - if you do that, then I won't be playing. If I'm out in the open world and I see a plant, I would like to pick it, if I see a mining node in a cave, then I would like to mine it. Or when I kill that rabbit, I'd like to wear his pelt! Put some impediments if you like, ie: more skill points to get more plants, or to be able to mine that gold seam. Same goes for fishing! And don't make first-aid useless. I want to explore the world and while I'm doing that I expect to be able to pickup whatever I want at any time.

    And mostly DON'T force me to go to dungeons or raids just to get a craft skill or recipe ... I've left WoW permanently because they did this in the last expansion! If you are going to tie down craft skills to dungeons/raids, then at least give me a 2nd choice (a hugely long annoying quest chain even with RNG thrown in to really p@&# me off). Some of us don't like to spend endless game time waiting for a dungeon queue/group ad infinitum just to get a recipe!

    • 4320 posts
    March 7, 2018 12:16 PM PST

    Koala said:

    I'm still struggling to read all of this, but in the end I like to "craft" in a game. If I'm locked to one or two crafts, then when I have the time, I will roll ALTS, those alts will mainly sit in town though. Generally when I've been locked to one or two crafting skills, then my "main" character becomes a gatherer, while my alts just craft. I really don't want to play like that, but if you force me to ...

    My preference would be however, to have access to every trade skill and gathering skill for just one character. If it takes years, or if I have to jump through hoops to become master crafter, then that's just fine with me. But don't lock me to just one trade skill please.

    Oh, and for the love of gaming, do not limit my gathering skills - if you do that, then I won't be playing. If I'm out in the open world and I see a plant, I would like to pick it, if I see a mining node in a cave, then I would like to mine it. Or when I kill that rabbit, I'd like to wear his pelt! Put some impediments if you like, ie: more skill points to get more plants, or to be able to mine that gold seam. Same goes for fishing! And don't make first-aid useless. I want to explore the world and while I'm doing that I expect to be able to pickup whatever I want at any time.

    And mostly DON'T force me to go to dungeons or raids just to get a craft skill or recipe ... I've left WoW permanently because they did this in the last expansion! If you are going to tie down craft skills to dungeons/raids, then at least give me a 2nd choice (a hugely long annoying quest chain even with RNG thrown in to really p@&# me off). Some of us don't like to spend endless game time waiting for a dungeon queue/group ad infinitum just to get a recipe!

    Hey Koala,

    I suggest you watch the interview I recently had with Pantheon's crafting dev, Corey LeFever. It will address most of your thoughts and concerns :) In the description of the video, I also provided links to a couple articles Corey wrote on an overview of the crafting and harvesting systems to give you a better idea of his direction, if you haven't already read them. Hope this helps! :) 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qG-RdZBD8


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at March 7, 2018 12:17 PM PST
    • 123 posts
    March 9, 2018 10:48 AM PST

    Awesome, thanks for the link. I will check this out. Currently watching/listening to Saicreds #22 episode recorded twitch stream. The map system sounds freakingly awesome! I have never ever been so excited about a future game. I cannot wait to play this game ... gimmee gimmee.

    I've just finished watching the video ... yes please! more gimmee !

    And please think about/reconsider - that we can add to more than 1 craft/specialisation


    This post was edited by Koala at March 9, 2018 11:13 AM PST
    • 2466 posts
    March 9, 2018 11:24 AM PST

    Koala said:

    Awesome, thanks for the link. I will check this out. Currently watching/listening to Saicreds #22 episode recorded twitch stream. The map system sounds freakingly awesome! I have never ever been so excited about a future game. I cannot wait to play this game ... gimmee gimmee.

    I've just finished watching the video ... yes please! more gimmee !

    And please think about/reconsider - that we can add to more than 1 craft/specialisation

    There is no map system planned for Pantheon save for maybe a very general world map. 

    • 123 posts
    March 9, 2018 12:48 PM PST

    And that's what I meant Iksar - no map system, yay --- no more living in my map!

    I want to do it all myself. I would like to see my map (personal) generate as I explore the world.


    This post was edited by Koala at March 9, 2018 12:49 PM PST
    • 111 posts
    March 9, 2018 1:38 PM PST

    Koala said:

    If I'm locked to one or two crafts, then when I have the time, I will roll ALTS, those alts will mainly sit in town though. Generally when I've been locked to one or two crafting skills, then my "main" character becomes a gatherer, while my alts just craft. I really don't want to play like that, but if you force me to ...

    My preference would be however, to have access to every trade skill and gathering skill for just one character. If it takes years, or if I have to jump through hoops to become master crafter, then that's just fine with me. But don't lock me to just one trade skill please.

    Koala, I am of the same thinking. It is just an artficial impediment limiting the number of crafts per character.

    My idea is to just make it harder to level crafting skills based on the number you have.

     

    In other words:

    * One Craft skill = Normal skill leveling.

    * Two Craft skills = Would take twice as long to max.

    * Three Craft skills = Would take three times as long to max.

    * Etc.

     

    Another way to look at it: If you only had one Craft skill.. and maxed it, then picked up a second, it would still take twice as long to max that second one.

    • 123 posts
    March 9, 2018 2:08 PM PST

    Yes I like that idea Bonechip. The subsequent trade skills must be made harder to get - so that only the mad crafters amongst us will try it ... remember the old WoW Insane Achievement (although not for crafting) it was hideous and you had to be insane to try for it.

    But - I got it!


    This post was edited by Koala at March 9, 2018 2:29 PM PST
    • 165 posts
    March 13, 2018 2:03 PM PDT

    Bonechip said:

    Koala said:

    If I'm locked to one or two crafts, then when I have the time, I will roll ALTS, those alts will mainly sit in town though. Generally when I've been locked to one or two crafting skills, then my "main" character becomes a gatherer, while my alts just craft. I really don't want to play like that, but if you force me to ...

    My preference would be however, to have access to every trade skill and gathering skill for just one character. If it takes years, or if I have to jump through hoops to become master crafter, then that's just fine with me. But don't lock me to just one trade skill please.

    Koala, I am of the same thinking. It is just an artficial impediment limiting the number of crafts per character.

    My idea is to just make it harder to level crafting skills based on the number you have.

     

    In other words:

    * One Craft skill = Normal skill leveling.

    * Two Craft skills = Would take twice as long to max.

    * Three Craft skills = Would take three times as long to max.

    * Etc.

     

    Another way to look at it: If you only had one Craft skill.. and maxed it, then picked up a second, it would still take twice as long to max that second one.

    Koala summed it up for me as well. Yes, previous games I've played has placed restrictions on the number of crafts a character can max out. All that resulted was many alts being rolled because I will experience every piece of content that I possibly can within a game.

    I would be perfectly fine with Bonechips idea to make the second craft of choice twice as hard after maxxing your first craft of choice. I would add to it though.

    Assume you maxxed out the first craft in 6 months of hard effort and the second craft with an additional year of hard effort, you should be rewarded for that as only a minority of the game population would do it because of the effort and difficulty. Maybe get rewarded with insight into something (is that Perception?), lower failure % in all crafts, AA points, etc.

    Now the 3rd craft may take 2 additional years of hard effort to get to a Max Crafter status of that profession. Award a title, more insight (guide to a quest or hidden mountain pass containing large volumes of harvestable items not otherwise accessible), or having 3 maxxed professions that have taken 3.5 years of hard crafting to get unlocks the ability to accept a side profession that is not available otherwise. One of my favorite memories in any game was my house in DAoC that had trophy mounts on all its walls many from BattleGroup (Raid) encounters. You could roll for and win the rare drop carcass but you still had to craft it into a trophy mount. So that could be a way for Taxidermy to make its way into the game; a reward side profession.

    • 4 posts
    April 5, 2018 2:39 PM PDT

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! *falls of cliff*

    I know this may be an unpopular stance, but crafting is my raison d'etre in MMOs and I've always loved being able to do it all (or as much as possible) on my own - making things from start to finish and knowing it was all me is just very satisfying. It's all very well saying "well you need to have player cooperation", but when NOBODY is making a certain bottleneck item, or is holding it hostage at a price that only the richest of the rich from the biggest mega-guild can acquire, then you're stuffed.

    If it's restricted so that you can only enjoy a portion of what's available craftingwise, I'm going to be very disappointed :(