Forums » Crafting

Group and raid crafting

    • 9 posts
    November 13, 2016 4:10 PM PST
    Risk versus reward.

    We group together to kill mobs and get rare loot, raid together to defeat bosses to get epic loots.

    Why is it different for crafting? While there is some dependency on other crafting classes to create subs or reagents, there is no group play in general when crafting an item. If crafters want to have their crafted items as good as regular raid rewards I'm all for it. Plus it would reinforce the whole social aspect by grouping crafters together.

    Adventuring groups traditionally have tank, healer, cc, dps; could we have a crafting group that required say a blacksmith, jeweller, tailor and alchemist? They'd all be able to cast their own buffs based on their crafting class working together to create something that none of them could do on their own.

    If raids are based on 24, 48 or higher man groups, why not for crafting? Raids take an incredible amount of concentration, coordination and skill on each person of the raid. If the rewards are comparable then the effort should be too.

    But there's no risk in crafting, there's no mobs to clear on the way to the boss. Tell that to the person who gathered for hours on end and then failed a recipe and lost the components.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm an adventurer at heart so when a crafter wants to craft a raid quality drop they better have the team, the skill, the patience, and willingness to die over and over for encounters (recipes) that may last hours on end, hoping that one afk dps who we left behind five minutes ago doesn't get lost and ends up training the entire raid. Yea you know who you are.
    • 177 posts
    November 13, 2016 7:11 PM PST

    Neuromancer said:  But there's no risk in crafting, there's no mobs to clear on the way to the boss. Tell that to the person who gathered for hours on end and then failed a recipe and lost the components. Don't get me wrong. I'm an adventurer at heart so when a crafter wants to craft a raid quality drop they better have the team, the skill, the patience, and willingness to die over and over for encounters (recipes) that may last hours on end, hoping that one afk dps who we left behind five minutes ago doesn't get lost and ends up training the entire raid. Yea you know who you are.

     

    focusing on the risk reward factor.  

    Now more so i would like to see crafting incorporated in to raiding as far as having to clear a boss mob or "raid" to get to a specific crafting station which would be required to be the final componant to crafting an Epic item for your class or something like that. 

    And of course keep the chance for failing a recipe there to add even more difficulty and maybe even more reason to kill the boss or clear the "raid" again.  

    Now equally on top of that, this crafted item should of course reflect the difficulty and time it would take to get said item.

     

    But on having each or the appropriate crafting class present. 

    I think it would be a neat idea to have a different type of preperation for raids with crafting.  Making sure you have the proper crafting classes present because raid mobs hit extremely hard and your armor decay is increased and you need a master blacksmith to repair armor on the spot.  Or a fletcher needs to make more arrows for the archers, alchemists to make poisons or poltice on the spot if things dont stack in excess or are too heavy in a final componant to carry too many of.

    Of course then, i think multiple players that have a master crafting ability would be required in each crafting class.


    This post was edited by Aayden at November 14, 2016 3:37 AM PST
    • 4336 posts
    November 14, 2016 11:17 AM PST

    Aayden said:

    Neuromancer said:  But there's no risk in crafting, there's no mobs to clear on the way to the boss. Tell that to the person who gathered for hours on end and then failed a recipe and lost the components. Don't get me wrong. I'm an adventurer at heart so when a crafter wants to craft a raid quality drop they better have the team, the skill, the patience, and willingness to die over and over for encounters (recipes) that may last hours on end, hoping that one afk dps who we left behind five minutes ago doesn't get lost and ends up training the entire raid. Yea you know who you are.

     

    focusing on the risk reward factor.  

    Now more so i would like to see crafting incorporated in to raiding as far as having to clear a boss mob or "raid" to get to a specific crafting station which would be required to be the final componant to crafting an Epic item for your class or something like that. 

    And of course keep the chance for failing a recipe there to add even more difficulty and maybe even more reason to kill the boss or clear the "raid" again.  

    Now equally on top of that, this crafted item should of course reflect the difficulty and time it would take to get said item.

     

    But on having each or the appropriate crafting class present. 

    I think it would be a neat idea to have a different type of preperation for raids with crafting.  Making sure you have the proper crafting classes present because raid mobs hit extremely hard and your armor decay is increased and you need a master blacksmith to repair armor on the spot.  Or a fletcher needs to make more arrows for the archers, alchemists to make poisons or poltice on the spot if things dont stack in excess or are too heavy in a final componant to carry too many of.

    Of course then, i think multiple players that have a master crafting ability would be required in each crafting class.

    I like the idea of having a special crafting station at the end of raid. However, I think I disagree with there being a chance for the recipe to fail. What would be more interesting would be to have the raid bosses themselves drop rare or special ingredients to be used in crafting. This also prevents people from trying to find a way to invis/stealth straight to the crafting station without having to actually fight anything.I know VR said they were going to try to prevent this, but you know that people are still gonna eventually find a way. DDO had crafting systems like this with several different raids and they were hugely popular. (look up Green Steel or Alchemical crafting) Some ingredients were more rare than others but you'd get at least something every run. But the sheer amount of ingredients required to craft an item meant you'd have to run the raid maybe ~20 times to get what you want. Which would then usually be on par or even a little bit better than that named sword, for example, that has a 5% drop rate from the boss. Some ingredients were bound, which meant that you actually had to grind the raid to craft the items. In other raids, the ingredients were unbound, which was a big part of the economy. I see arguments for both approaches. I'm not saying Pantheon should be exactly like that, but I think it should incorporate some of the same ideas. Either way, I think raid crafting is really fun.

    • 875 posts
    November 15, 2016 1:32 PM PST

    I covered some ideas relating to this in a thread about raid contention.

     

    Instead of having Raid mobs drop the higher end crafting reagents / items:

    1. Crafter has to expose the reagent to the energy given off by a Raid Mob (or within X mins of death)

    Just make sure you are wearing lead-lined pants!

    2. Crafter has to bathe crafting component in mob's blood

    Soak them rubies inside that red dragon if you want them to make higher end gear!

    3. Crafter has to setup portable forge to re-forge the blade and quench it in the (still-warm) beast

    Portable forges / anvils should be HEAVY!

    4. Crafter needs blood/bile added to ready potion/poison bottle to complete.

    Big needle and hose needed!

    5. Crafter needs to use the 'improvised' workstation in the lair :

    These have accumulated X points of 'energy' at a rate of 'Boss Level per day', but loses 100 points per day after its death. Crafting can be done as long as 'Item top be crafted Level' of points remain - which is then removed upon use. Failure means you can retry - but still costs item's level in points.

    This might be superheated stone rubble that acts as a forge,  a large pool of ichor strong enough to act as a powerful tanning agent or bubbles of poisonous gas rising from black tar that can temporarily weaken the fibres of even the densest woods so they can be worked with ease.

    6. Crafters are the only ones who can 'harvest' certain reagents from the Boss mob.

    Type of reagent will depend on craft chosen (via choice of hervesting tool)

    Quantity / Quality of reagent dependent on skill of crafter

    Quality 'cap' level of reagents drops every 10 mins after death. Get it fresh for best quality! Vultures get lesser quality.

    7. Quest stuff ... just need to do one/some of #1-#6 above!

     

    The idea here is to have raid bosses 'rot' instead of 'poof' immediately. It also requuires Raid bosses starting at earlier levels, eg level 20+. The value/quality of reagents harvested from/near the boss/lair will weaken as time passes after its death. This, therefore, means opportunities for ninja-vultures/hyenas who try to feed off the corpses left by other raid parties. It also means crafters being integral to some raids for Guilds. I feel it would also slow inflation - since more reagents etc are dropped or harvested, thus meaning less cash-type loots, not to mention the reagents forming part of the cash-sink that is crafting!

     

    Raid Leader (shouting) 'Oi, gnome! who said you could jump inside the Raid Boss to ninja loot all the gall stones?'

    Gnome Alchmist (muffled) 'Hey, I didn't jump in! I was swallowed, you idiot! ... eewwww what did I just step in!'

    Guild Crafter (mutterring) 'Goddam gnomes! Ninjas the lot of them.... swallowed my backside.'

    Raid Leader (screaming) 'All halflings here - get your backsides into that mob and gank that ninja gnome!'

    • 2013 posts
    November 17, 2016 10:35 AM PST
    Good stuff Evoras. I'm not that big into crafting. But I'm definitely a fan of spreading the endgame around. I'm not a fan of the Raid only mentality. I do like raids but I've said it before but I would make the best gear/spells/skills come from different sources. So that you can't only Raid and expect to have the best gear. But from the crafting endgame this could add to it.

    PvP angle: guarding your kill until you exhaust all resources from the corpse?

    P.S. I'm the Gnome.
    • 293 posts
    November 18, 2016 6:12 AM PST

    Hey folks. Just came to mind before i forget. Raid...boss drops item X. Grandmaster crafter, gets item X from said boss and does final combine. Item X combine with random reagent/material etc something to make the end game item (weapon, armour, item, etc, or something). Items from raid alone is nice, crafted items alone is also nice. Items from raid combine with a crafted item is nicer (maybe i should read everyones post again...need coffee) what are we talking about? Oh yeah. Make folks who likes to raid happy, makes folks who like to craft happy...like getting married. Nope.

    Ok read. Still...need more coffee. Why craft when you can raid and get best item? Or why raid when you can craft best item? Why not both? You, or a bunch of folks in game have end game items, best of the best, but oh wait. Theres a lost legend about how to create a Patheon weapon, Patheon Armour, or item, or Patheon something....by having a master (am shooting for a grandmaster crafter (if you die, someone will res you :P ) ok by having a grandmaster crafter combining said Patheon weapon/item/armour etc, making it into end end game (or until another expansion comes out).

    For the master/grandmaster crafter (did post it eleswhere), you have to go through some lengthy quest, trial etc. As much effort as it takes for raiding, same effort for getting grandmaster. So in nutshell, combine raid item with craft item or crafter. Either or, both.

    So...you (guild) get raid item(s), you (guild) hopefully have a grandmaster crafter who can combine the item. Raid item plus crafter item makes new item. Meh..

    • 2013 posts
    November 18, 2016 9:13 AM PST
    I like combines too. Those can be really good if done right. As well as the similar idea of crafting add-on pieces to armors. Think someone on the forums talked about how this was a thing in VG?
    • 9 posts
    November 18, 2016 12:33 PM PST

    Some great ideas on raid encounters for crafting. However I had another variation.  

    Actual group crafting. Crafting stations that can accomodate multiple crafters simultaneously working on the same recipe. If adventure groups work together to get to the bottom of a dungeon and defeat a boss to get loot, why can't crafters do the same. Group/raid style play but using crafting buffs and technique.  For example, the recipe calls for 80 percent durability in metal smithing, 40 percent jewelry and 20 percent alchemy. You better have at least 2 metal smiths in your crafting group to provide buffs to maintain 80 percent because one won't be able to keep up.

    The longer the crafting time and more durability required  the better the loot.

    Even make it so you can die (can't remember if you could in EQ) while crafting so the death penalty plays a part. You may require heals or clarity if you need more mana so the experience is both adventure and crafting.

    Maybe even make a group of 3 crafters and 3 defenders that have to defend the crafting station from mobs that spawn while the crafters are engaged in the station.

    That would make crafting way more interesting than just staring at same interface in the safe part of the city for hours on end.

     

     

     

    • 1848 posts
    December 26, 2016 2:35 PM PST

    In The Shadow Odyssey (TSO) EQ2 expansion, they added group crafting, where you had to craft items from every tradeskill in order to complete the daily quest. The rewards were items that increased crafting skills and special recipes.

    They also introduced Tradeskill Epic items, such as cloaks, where you had find someone of each Tradeskill that had earmed their Tradeskill-specific recipe to create your master cloak.

    I hope to see this type of interdependence for tradeskil leveling.

    • 101 posts
    February 23, 2017 12:59 PM PST

    Ravenwolf said:

    Hey folks. Just came to mind before i forget. Raid...boss drops item X. Grandmaster crafter, gets item X from said boss and does final combine. Item X combine with random reagent/material etc something to make the end game item (weapon, armour, item, etc, or something). Items from raid alone is nice, crafted items alone is also nice. Items from raid combine with a crafted item is nicer (maybe i should read everyones post again...need coffee) what are we talking about? Oh yeah. Make folks who likes to raid happy, makes folks who like to craft happy...like getting married. Nope.

    Ok read. Still...need more coffee. Why craft when you can raid and get best item? Or why raid when you can craft best item? Why not both? You, or a bunch of folks in game have end game items, best of the best, but oh wait. Theres a lost legend about how to create a Patheon weapon, Patheon Armour, or item, or Patheon something....by having a master (am shooting for a grandmaster crafter (if you die, someone will res you :P ) ok by having a grandmaster crafter combining said Patheon weapon/item/armour etc, making it into end end game (or until another expansion comes out).

    For the master/grandmaster crafter (did post it eleswhere), you have to go through some lengthy quest, trial etc. As much effort as it takes for raiding, same effort for getting grandmaster. So in nutshell, combine raid item with craft item or crafter. Either or, both.

    So...you (guild) get raid item(s), you (guild) hopefully have a grandmaster crafter who can combine the item. Raid item plus crafter item makes new item. Meh..

     

    That could also help with those who keep close tabs on raid loot to be dispersed throughout the guild.