Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Toxic players

    • 9115 posts
    January 18, 2016 4:11 AM PST
    Have you ever encountered a toxic player in an MMORPG and if so how did you deal with the situation? :)
    • 1434 posts
    January 18, 2016 4:32 AM PST

    Being that I generally play on PvP servers, I like to get coffee and snacks before killing them and sitting on their corpse.

    • 74 posts
    January 18, 2016 4:39 AM PST

    Usually best to just steer clear of them if possible. Lot of toxic players can be trolly and many are just trying to get a reaction.

    It's when toxic players start training you intentionally in dungeons, killstealing (even after asking nicely not to), or directly/intentionally negatively impacting your playing is where problems really can get ugly. I'd think GM involvement/report at that point would probably be the least headache approach though. I'm assuming Panethon has a GM/guide system intervention like EQ did where the green names would arrive?


    This post was edited by spyderoptik at January 18, 2016 5:12 AM PST
    • 9115 posts
    January 18, 2016 6:10 AM PST

    Dullahan said:

    Being that I generally play on PvP servers, I like to get coffee and snacks before killing them and sitting on their corpse.

    Lol, nice ;)

    • 9115 posts
    January 18, 2016 6:11 AM PST

    spyderoptik said:

    Usually best to just steer clear of them if possible. Lot of toxic players can be trolly and many are just trying to get a reaction.

    It's when toxic players start training you intentionally in dungeons, killstealing (even after asking nicely not to), or directly/intentionally negatively impacting your playing is where problems really can get ugly. I'd think GM involvement/report at that point would probably be the least headache approach though. I'm assuming Panethon has a GM/guide system intervention like EQ did where the green names would arrive?

    Yeah, absolutely man, spot on :)

    • 3016 posts
    January 18, 2016 6:11 AM PST

    Dullahan said:

    Being that I generally play on PvP servers, I like to get coffee and snacks before killing them and sitting on their corpse.

    Hehehe I like that response, maybe in my old pvp days...lol  And by toxic ..I take that to mean the trolls,  the ones that like to start fights in general chat.    If they're really obnoxious and unredeemable...they go on my perma ignore.    I play games to have fun,  not to listen to some person on a constant basis with a knot in their face.   Land on my ignore,  ignore is forever in my case.    Forgiveness?  Maybe...some day. 

    • 149 posts
    January 18, 2016 6:15 AM PST

    Honestly toxic players never bothered me because I know their type. They will stick around only as long as the game is popular and once the new hotness comes out they leave and go there because if they are truely toxic they tend to have a certain attitude that gets them banned in games after a fairly long period so their shelf life is limited.

    Plus I just don't play with them ;p

    • 105 posts
    January 18, 2016 6:25 AM PST

    I hope I'm not taking this discussion off course with my answer.

     

    If I complain about a certain public channel being full of toxic chat I don't think the answer is for me to just turn off that chat channel.  I play MMORPGs because I enjoy a living and vibrant community.  Turning off chat channels and shrinking the MMO part of the community I've joined is simply bullsnot.  

     

    My expectations of a civil community does not make me thin-skinned.  Racism, xenophobia, misogyny and any other ignorance that toxic players want to spew in public channels should be nipped in the bud.  Hopefully in Pantheon the community will be able to curb such behavior by not welcoming those who practice such behaviors into groups and the like.  If it doesn't I want GM intervention.  I want people to feel welcome when they join Pantheon and feel free to ask questions and not be attacked in channel for daring to appear less than knowledgable about the game.  

     

    I really hope we can return to an era where people want to help each other--where no question is a dumb question and will be answered with respect.  I don't want to have nothing to do until my guildies log on because I'm afraid to join the community at large because of excessive toxicity.

    • 9115 posts
    January 18, 2016 7:46 AM PST

    Aggelos said:

    Honestly toxic players never bothered me because I know their type. They will stick around only as long as the game is popular and once the new hotness comes out they leave and go there because if they are truely toxic they tend to have a certain attitude that gets them banned in games after a fairly long period so their shelf life is limited.

    Plus I just don't play with them ;p

    Yeah, that is exactly right mate ;)

    • 9115 posts
    January 18, 2016 7:48 AM PST

    Marilee said:

    I hope I'm not taking this discussion off course with my answer.

     

    If I complain about a certain public channel being full of toxic chat I don't think the answer is for me to just turn off that chat channel.  I play MMORPGs because I enjoy a living and vibrant community.  Turning off chat channels and shrinking the MMO part of the community I've joined is simply bullsnot.  

     

    My expectations of a civil community does not make me thin-skinned.  Racism, xenophobia, misogyny and any other ignorance that toxic players want to spew in public channels should be nipped in the bud.  Hopefully in Pantheon the community will be able to curb such behavior by not welcoming those who practice such behaviors into groups and the like.  If it doesn't I want GM intervention.  I want people to feel welcome when they join Pantheon and feel free to ask questions and not be attacked in channel for daring to appear less than knowledgable about the game.  

     

    I really hope we can return to an era where people want to help each other--where no question is a dumb question and will be answered with respect.  I don't want to have nothing to do until my guildies log on because I'm afraid to join the community at large because of excessive toxicity.

    Absolutely, I would like to see us return to that era too but we know there will be the minority of players who try to get a reaction out of our community members in-game, so best way to deal with it is just as you say, /ignore, /report, drop group/guild etc. and if you block the offenders you will not see them in chat, so the channel will be back to normal minus a few random people replying to them which probably won't make much sense reading it ;) 

    • 106 posts
    January 18, 2016 8:03 AM PST
    First off I want to state that these days everyone is micro monitoring everything. Players these days are running their screen capture programs to capture people in the act of what ever they believe is wrong.

    Let's not jump the gun and start banning what seems to be toxic play. Give leeway because not all instances where someone pisses you off or bend/break the rules is the others intentions.

    Accidents happen, KSing happens, you need to get over it most of the time. Now if it's blatant obvious, then I'd like a GM to step in and hear both sides of the story.

    /report and /ignore should be in the game. I'd like to see ignore used most often though. You'll never escape the ass hole in any game. I'm sure hello kitty online has 5 year old DBs.
    • 160 posts
    January 18, 2016 8:09 AM PST

    In order for the player community to keep toxic players in check, the game has to enforce dependency on other players, and to give players the basic tools and means for it.

     

    For example, if the game is fully soloable, people know they don't really need others, so being shunned and excluded from groups is not a threat. If the game is 90% not soloable, a person who manages to piss off most of the server will find himself unable to do anything in game.

     

    Grouping and guilds should be fully under player control. I'll make a comparison with, let's say, DOTA (and I know, it's a different genre, but it's a good comparison for this).

    In DOTA, you get random groups, you cannot control who gets in your group (except if you bring a full set of 5 friends which is rare). People in your group know that whatever you think of them, good or bad, will not affect their chances to get into the next group, and you can't drop them or leave the group without abandoning the game. So, they don't care, and they can easily be toxic with no consequences.

    In EQ, people join a group or not, as they will, and if anyone doesn't like his group he can leave and go elsewhere. This makes people behave. Also, if there are 30 people in a zone, if you leave one group, you'll have to find another in the same zone... the total pool of people you can piss off isn't infinite, and soon you run out of groups. Again, it makes people behave. Those that don't, find themselves alone and unable to do anything.

     

    Guilds are the same thing writ large, if the endgame depends on raiding guilds, being kicked out of a guild affects your ingame life significantly, and if you manage to get a bad rep in several guilds, you're done for. This, however, depends on the game actually needing raid content and guilds... if everything is one big solofest then it doesn't matter, and you will have toxic players.

     

    Indirect shame based on being seen as a friend of a toxic player also plays a role. People in the same guild as the player who's known as toxic will boot him because the reputation of their entire guild and each member will suffer. Even people in the same group, even if not in the same guild, will often not want to be seen as being associated in any way with such a person. And this again brings us back to interdependency.

     

    If a game has all these mechanisms, the amount of work for GMs, guides and such remains reasonable and doable. If it doesn't, the number of toxic players rises way past the point where GMs can manage them. The community is the key - given proper conditions, the community will manage 90% of its problems, and GMs can fix the rest.

     

     

    • 2138 posts
    January 18, 2016 8:13 AM PST

    Goodness, it was in my guild but I had a sneaking suspicion that there was something else going on in this Cleric officers life IRL. The guild was not big, but we were a part- a major part of a raiding alliance- to the point where people thought that it you were sort of automatically in the alliance, if you were in the guild. I felt it, and I had no issue when the founders of the raiding alliance leaving and starting their own minimal member guild just to be out of that stigma so they could still run the alliance and not be associated with a guild per se. The idea of the alliance was that it was not a guild but a way for people who were not in uber spawn blocking guilds to get their epics- starting as "instant army"- that later went on to raiding.

    I forgot what it was but I was arguing with this Cleric officer of my guild for about 3 hours over some- it was really petty- more of a pride thing. And it was very uncomfortable, but I suspected something was  going on in RL and I decided that best he is ranting to me in tells instead of me blowing him off and having him find someone else. I mean when you get to a certain level sometimes people wonder why you are NOT in a guild so, I didn't let it affect me in a way where I would quit.

    Some people like the independence flavor of not being guilded or, more likely to not be subject to stereotypes that are associated with that guild, or a guild in general even if no stereotypes are yet "public" about the guild. Sort of like joining a sorority or fraternity in college. Unfortunately the media has helped propogate the image of sororities being like: diva-*****-backstabbing-I want your boyfriend just so I can dump him-we're really all witches, metier (persona?/perceived attributes) and fraternities as chauvinistoc, oafish, beer-drinking partyboys. So can people also think of guilds with a preconcieved, dare I say pre-judge-ist (hyphened for effect, intentionally) notion and silently apply that to the individual member. The independent minded; not wanting to even have a smidge of preconceived notions associated with them as a person and wanting to be judged soley on their own merits, would then not want to even get near being in a guild.

    However, the membership in a guild also has its benefits, in a highly social game where innuendos and quiet conversations about you that you dont know about, by aiding and socially supporting the member against toxic players.

    You know the scenario. Manouk groups with party x. Party X wipes. Gnome necro- having lost a smidge of exp on the death with no rez in sight- blames Manouk on the horrendeous loss of exp due to poor game play and refuses to dust themselves off and go at it again.

    If said gnome, for whatever reason, is suddenly annointed causing anyone and everyone that the gnome speaks to in the ensuing days to remember and retain the comments from the gnome about Manouk, possibly to the point of putting Manouk on ignore just from the gossip and unbeknownst to Manouk.

    This could be seen as toxic and the interesting thing is; it is just as toxic from either point of view to third party ears.  The benefit of being guilded is that if the officers or other members are confronted over such behavior, The opinion is a resounding "no, our guild member is not like that" and that is fine for the guild member and the guild, but- suddenly creates a wall- a pre conceived notion- that needs to be "lived- down" in public by all the members and unbeknownst to the members of the guild.

    Every non-guilded or even alternately guilded person having heard such from, or second hand from the gnome necro will have that "third eye" carefully observing for any manifestation of this gosspied behavior. Likewise tension is caused within the guild- parents may run into this dynamic with children- where the officer will turn to Manouk and say- " don't group with the gnome necro again" and Manouk, thinking she is being chastised will say/feel "but its not my fault!" and Manouk will not feel any no social recompense even in the guild.

    (unless the officer speaks of this to Guild member Y and in anticipation of the "unfairness"  reaction and tells Member Y to seek out and include Manouk in her groups for a period of time going forward, so that Manouk can make new friends, do other stuff, and quickly forget about the "unfair" aspect- provided Y does it in a way that seems  impromptu, i.e.

    Guild officer: "Y, see if you can look out for Manouk when she is on, and invite her to your groups if you can, but dont tell her I told you, make it seem like it is your random idea. Manouk went through this scenario and I spoke to her in this way, and she felt this way and I think it would be a good way to diffuse any remaining ill-will"

    Y: "Manouk? that little tart!? I wouldn't give her the time of day, have you seen her boyfriend?!"  

    Guild Officer: "Y, were you in a sorority IRL? ooc: or are you RP'ing")

    Slander is an effective Toxin in a MMORPG and harder to quickly diffuse. Otherwise, time resolves it effectively and if the world is beg enough, forgotten.   

    • 308 posts
    January 18, 2016 8:20 AM PST

    I generally use /ignore, although i have found that ignore is rather easy to get around so i would like to see something in place that makes it a bit better. so i have some suggestions for how the devs can make it easier to deal with trolls.

     

    1. if i were to /ignore TrollFace, then the game would also automatically ignore all of the characters on the same account.

    2. goldsellers are trolls. constantly spamming thier advertizements in chat channels is a nono and because of the speed of spamming it can be hard to hit the name for the ignore command, so i would suggest some type of program that would recognise spamming and automatically get rid of it from world / zone channels. something along the lines of autobooting the person from a channel if the same text comes up more than 10 times a minute from the same player or something like that.

    3. someone needs to be available at all times to hit trolls with a banhammer. i would suggest that when using /report another command be entered to take the last 50 lines of text from the specified channel as evidence such as /report General or /report Whisper to help make it easier to do the banhammering.

    4. another thing that would be nice is the ability to include video files in the report. many players now run programs that can screencapture video and it would be nice if we could upload that into reports from the pc memory. i myself have a program that allows me to hit a button and the last 5 mins of video are dumped into a save file in my pc.

    • 157 posts
    January 18, 2016 9:02 AM PST

    I find that I can ignore much of what rolls past on my chat screen.  I like to separate out friends/guild/and party chat from the rest of the mass.  Most of the gold sellers and other spam chat just rolls on into oblivion.  What does make it through is the occasional pick-up player that must be having a bad day.  Having the option to /squelch/ignore such folks is a great idea.  As Gawd posted earlier:

    1. if i were to /ignore TrollFace, then the game would also automatically ignore all of the characters on the same account.

     If the player is bad enough to /ignore, then I want the ability to remove this person from contacting me in the future.  I remember kicking truly toxic players from groups and being hounded in /tells by their various alts.

     

    Also, as Aethor posted: In EQ, people join a group or not, as they will, and if anyone doesn't like his group he can leave and go elsewhere. This makes people behave. Also, if there are 30 people in a zone, if you leave one group, you'll have to find another in the same zone... the total pool of people you can piss off isn't infinite, and soon you run out of groups. Again, it makes people behave. Those that don't, find themselves alone and unable to do anything.

    In a game where grouping is important, and within a smaller pool of players, the community becomes self-policing.

    • 83 posts
    January 18, 2016 9:04 AM PST

    I have posted this before i think, but the game needs to be set up so it does not support toxic trolls, one of the easiest ways to escape a bad reputation is a paid name change, please do NOT sell that, ever, that does remove a possible stream of income, but in terms of encouraging people to behave friendly with others, no name change option will be priceless.

    Server transfers is another means of fleeing your reputation, and for that reason I don't think this service should be automated, perhaps a glimpse into the complaints against the character should be looked at before giving the ok or decline, also, i'd put it on a timer, 1 free server change every 6 month or so, and 1 paid max while those 6 months tick down.

    An easy way to ignore the character and or their account with a click or two in game would also be nice.

     

    I get this sounds harsh, and imo. it stinks measures like these are even needed.

     

     


    This post was edited by Zlambit at January 18, 2016 9:05 AM PST
    • 116 posts
    January 18, 2016 9:20 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Have you ever encountered a toxic player in an MMORPG and if so how did you deal with the situation? :)

    Yes, and it depends.  I've had several in various guilds I've led over the years, so I usually kick them and gave a friendly heads up to the leader of the next guild they join.  I will put them on my friends list with a comment, and it is always amusing to see them log in less and less as they burn more and more bridges.  If I am out and about and they are trying to get a rise out of me, I'll generally just ignore them and either switch to an alt or just call back home.  If I happen to be in a feisty mood, I may log over to a higher level or better geared character and see how they appreciate the same treatment, but that hasn't happened more than maybe three times total.

    Generally speaking I just make a mental note, and ensure I have no unnecessary contact with that person in future.  They are problems that eventually sort themselves out, and it's usually only a matter of time before they step over the line and a GM intervenes.  Obviously if I witness toxic behaviour, if I deem it serious enough, I will report them through the appropriate channels.  Honestly though I have far more beef with people who bot and exploit than I do someone making an ass of themselves in public chat.

    One thing is for sure though, I never put people on ignore.  No matter how annoying they may be, it is not worth giving them the opportunity to slander me or my guild without me knowing.  

     

    • 781 posts
    January 18, 2016 9:42 AM PST

    Zlambit said:

    I have posted this before i think, but the game needs to be set up so it does not support toxic trolls, one of the easiest ways to escape a bad reputation is a paid name change, please do NOT sell that, ever, that does remove a possible stream of income, but in terms of encouraging people to behave friendly with others, no name change option will be priceless.

    Server transfers is another means of fleeing your reputation, and for that reason I don't think this service should be automated, perhaps a glimpse into the complaints against the character should be looked at before giving the ok or decline, also, i'd put it on a timer, 1 free server change every 6 month or so, and 1 paid max while those 6 months tick down.

    An easy way to ignore the character and or their account with a click or two in game would also be nice.

     

    I get this sounds harsh, and imo. it stinks measures like these are even needed.

     

     

     

    Totally Agree bro !

    • 1095 posts
    January 18, 2016 9:49 AM PST

    I like trolls. Woun't be a social game without them...us :)

    • 89 posts
    January 18, 2016 11:51 AM PST

    Aethor pretty much nailed it.  If the game is designed to be accessible to solo players through max level, the incentive is there for toxic players to play the game through max level.

    • 37 posts
    January 18, 2016 2:11 PM PST

    If the game is popular it will attract toxic players. If it is big enough, the toxicity will be diluted by the overwhelming amount of positive energy that is going on.

    I think ignoring toxic players is a time-tested strategy. No reaction is certainly not the reaction expected.

    I agree that name changes, server transfers allow for toxic players to continue beyond what they would without those two mechanics. I also think account selling/sharing has a negative impact as well. I would like to see some kind of keyfob account and character security, and linking accounts to real life names in some way to cut down on accounts being transferred to people. Imo this was a big problem in EQ for a while during the so-called hayday. 

    I think "customer service" managers really dont understand the negative impact toxic players have on their games, and hence their games bottom lines. I know many people who quit due to harrassment in games. A 3 day ban doesnt cut it.

     

    • 51 posts
    January 18, 2016 4:09 PM PST

    Unfortunately, toxic players existed long before easy names changes, easy server transfers and my personal least favorite MMO feature: cross server dungeon finder. Anything that allows them to avoid repurcussions just encourages their obnoxious behavior, and it's only gotten worse with all the "easy buttons" added to MMOs in the last several years. But those features didn't create the problem. Toxic players have been there from the beginning. The fact is some people just enjoy bugging people as much as they can. Those people don't care about having a bad reputation -- they wear it like a badge of honor.

    I agree that ignoring them is the best way to get rid of them. No reaction, no fun. But that doesn't make them stop. It just makes them divert their attention to someone else. I think an appropriate way to deal with public chat offenders would be to silence them. For the next 24 hours (or however long) nothing they type shows up in any chat channel, not even /say. Even better, autosend a message to everyone in their guild explaining that soandso has been silenced for x hours for violating y rule in the the code of conduct, sorry for the inconvenience, etc. Of course silencing would be reserved for truly toxic speech or harassment, not for simply dropping a few F bombs.

    I think intentional mob training, blatent KSing and that sort of thing could be handled in a similar fashion. But instead of limiting their ability to communicate, limit their ability to move. Snare them! A movement speed debuff would mess them up so much it would drive them crazy. And frankly, I think it would be sweet justice. Hit all their characters too, not just the one they were playing at the time. And make it an account based effect so any new characters they create are also snared.

    Also, I think general chat just brings out the worst in some people. In the old days we only had regional chat like /ooc. (Back in my day! lol) Zone-wide, or in a seamless world, area-wide chat provides the same function while limiting the otherwise constant stream of rude commentary. There's no reason we need to be able to chat with the entire server. I wouldn't be against having no public channels at all, except that in that case if there's a help channel it'll end up becoming "trade chat." The fact that trade is often the worst channel is evidence of the fact that the people who flood it with garbage do it for attention. They want everyone to read it. That's why they move from general to trade -- because most of us eventually turn off general.


    This post was edited by Typhon at January 18, 2016 4:14 PM PST
    • 137 posts
    January 18, 2016 4:14 PM PST

    I do intense research to find who they are and where they live. Carefully plan my trip and book a flight. Locate their place of rest, follow them, study them, watch them closely. Determine what their favorite foods are, what their family life is like, if they work. Catch them out and about, strike up a conversation. Get their number, keep in touch. Go out with them multiple other times, have a good time. Learn who they truly are, where their heart lies, their soul lies, where their future is going, then I'd fart in their face.

    • 2419 posts
    January 18, 2016 4:30 PM PST

    Zlambit said:

    I have posted this before i think, but the game needs to be set up so it does not support toxic trolls, one of the easiest ways to escape a bad reputation is a paid name change, please do NOT sell that, ever, that does remove a possible stream of income, but in terms of encouraging people to behave friendly with others, no name change option will be priceless.

    Server transfers is another means of fleeing your reputation, and for that reason I don't think this service should be automated, perhaps a glimpse into the complaints against the character should be looked at before giving the ok or decline, also, i'd put it on a timer, 1 free server change every 6 month or so, and 1 paid max while those 6 months tick down.

    An easy way to ignore the character and or their account with a click or two in game would also be nice.

    Zlambit has it right.  Reputation needs to be important to players and minimizing the means by which trolls, griefers, etc can wipe their slate clean of their past transgressions. 

    • 9115 posts
    January 18, 2016 4:40 PM PST

    Great replies, I think we can all agree that /report and /ignore are key features to silencing the toxic players and usually that in itself can be enough to make them lose interest, sometimes combines with leaving the area and while we will of course have GMs and staff to help we won;t be there 24/7 so it is interesting to hear how people would handle these situations :)