Forums » Crafting

Some thoughts on Crafting

    • 610 posts
    November 6, 2015 11:25 AM PST

    (originally posted elsewhere)

    We do hope to launch with an awesome crafting system.  In fact, if it's not awesome, I would prefer to wait and add a bad-ass crafting system post-launch than to launch with a substandard one.  In the beginning, we didn't plan on launching with a crafting system, but then after listening to our future players, we realized that we really need to go for it, that there are a lot of people within our target audience who love crafting.  An interesting bit of trivia for you:  There was no plan to have a crafting system in EQ.  We added it towards the end of development, mostly because we saw how cool it was in UO.  It was a bit controversial, adding a major system towards the end of development, but in hindsight I am glad we did!

    Anyway, one thing I do think we'll try to do with Pantheon's crafting system is have crafting products typically be very different than dropped items.  I don't like MMOs where crafting products compete with dropped items.  Either dropped items tend to be better, and then people don't have an incentive to craft, or the opposite, with crafting products being superior to dropped, which of course causes other issues.

    So our basic thinking is that both crafting products and dropped items need to be very valuable and sought after, but that that they typically shouldn't compete with each other.  It's very important that we are able to launch an expansion with new boss mobs, new exotic and rare loot, and new quests without obsoleting crafting.  It's also very important that we are able to add to the items crafters can create without having to worry about obsoleting significant encounters, popular quests, or even entire dungeons, etc.  That means they need to be different, perhaps fundamentally different.  

    It's certainly too early to set anything in stone, but one idea is to make consumables in Pantheon integral to the game.  I remember in some of the better MUDs and MMOs from way back that consumables could be just as important as your gear, or the buffs that were on you, etc.  An easy example would be stone-skin potions.  In one MUD I played, they were pretty much essential.  Even in a well balanced group, and even geared up with good gear, and even with buffs and other protective spells, you still needed some stone-skin potions if you were going to tank at all.  The key there, is that even with heals and protective buffs, the consumable potions made your tank(s) more survivable, especially towards the end of a long and difficult battle.  Healing potions were not as integral because the designers didn't want characters to be primarily healed from consumables -- obviously, you don't want your consumables to replace or interfere with how important it is to have other classes in your group (healers in this example).  There was also a limit to how many potions or other consumables you could use in any given amount of time -- so while they were very important, you could only use a few before you had to wait a while (certainly at least until another battle) before you could use more.  You couldn't just build up your collection of stone-skin potions until you had a ton, and then just use and use them.  So they had limited effect, were hard to obtain, and didn't interfere with class interdependence, yet they were nonetheless absolutely necessary in tough battles.

    Now, don't read too much into what I'm saying -- I'm not saying that crafters will only create potions.  I'm trying to make a more general point, that being if what crafters created were vital but different than what gear gave you, and different than what other classes in your group gave you, that it could be an essential part of the game, but the crafting products not directly competing with dropped/quest gear, nor directly competing with how important it is to have a well balanced party.  Crafting and the products made by crafting could be extremely important, yet independent enough from drops and quest rewards and the buffs and spells from other classes such that we could avoid the hassle of trying to keep products and loot 'balanced'.  

    Thoughts?


    This post was edited by Aradune at November 6, 2015 11:41 AM PST
    • 18 posts
    November 6, 2015 12:05 PM PST

    While I never really got into crafting in any of the MMOs that I have played I have purchased plenty of player created items.  There's something about buying items or making items and then wearing it.  In my early adventures in everquest, I remember being outside of blackburrow and there was someone selling patchwork armor.  I bought a few peices for my barb warrior and I felt really good about being able to show it off.  I agree that crafted items shouldnt compete with dropped items and finding a middle ground will be tough to do, if you decide to have players crafting armor.  Player crafted potions and food is a great way to provide extra buffs like you said.  Much can be said about buying a stack of Spirit of the Wolf potions and not having to beg for a few weeks.  I really don't have any ideas of how I would implement crafting in a way that wouldnt step on any classes toes or make dropped items obsolete so I guess i'll stop there.  I look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say about this.

    • 75 posts
    November 6, 2015 1:06 PM PST

    I personally would love to see another Vanguard style crafting system. To be honest, it was the most intuitive and robust crafting system I've seen in an MMORPG.

    I think I know where you might he headed Aradune; the horseshoes for mounts in Vanguard came to my mind specifically :D

     

    • 13 posts
    November 6, 2015 2:15 PM PST

    I don't think there's any reason not to have a little competition between crafted and dropped items.  The ultimate question is, how is the economy affected?

     

    Here are some points to consider:

    • Everytime an item is dropped or crafted, how long is it in the economy for?  Permanently? Item decay?
    • What is the time/effort needed to create an item?  This represents value, and the value should be comparable to the time/effort needed to hunt/farm for a comparable item.
    • The rarest of dropped equipment should be the best.  These are the rare drops from raid type encounters, and thus creates the drive to conduct the raid.
    • In a player's journey to level up, attempt a raid and eventually acquire the rarest of equipment, there will always be the need to fill those equipment slots with something else.
    • Uncommon/non-raid rare items are just that, uncommon/rare.  If someone has amassed enough money, and is unlucky in getting those second tier item drops, there should be alternatives.  Either purchasing that drop from someone else, or commissioning a crafter to make something comparable.
    • Expansions are the next big consideration.  Crafting should scale into expansions, maybe with high skill necessary to repair the top tier items...or maybe to improve/enchant top tier items.

    There's so much that can be done with crafting, there's no reason not to include it as an alternative to dropped items.  I remember liking the crafting system in DAoC.  It was possible there to play a pure merchant/crafter character that could create very useful equipment up to the highest levels and never actually do any fighting.  It eventually fell off a bit, but there was a lot of potential to improve that system.

     

    • 45 posts
    November 6, 2015 2:19 PM PST

    I really like the idea of crafted items not competing with loot.  Some general ideas come to mind.

    1.  Tailoring:  

    Non-Combat Social Gear that effects how NPC's treat you.  Put on your "City Cloths" and receive better prices from merchants by not traveling to the city baker in bloodstained mail.

    Cold Weather Gear with no armor value but perhaps prevents a debuff from traveling through the Tundra. (I'm thinking a Hooded Cloak or something of that nature)

    2. Tinkering: 

    Craftable Constructs:  Non Combat Pets that can be crafted.  Something like a small clockwork that can work as a pack mule (extra bag slot, without weight).  Limited to 1 out at a time.

    Eyewear: Head slot items with no Combat stats but that grant vision effects.  Could be something as simple as low light vision or something as awesome as the ability to see footprints left by mobs pathing.  (Would be a much cooler method of tracking btw...i'm looking at you Rangers).

    3. Smithing:

    Horseshoes: I loved them in Vanguard but im biased.

    Repairing Items: If item degredation is a mechanic I would love to see the repairs done by players and not NPC's.  If it is done by NPC's Smiths should be able to craft the only item that allows repairing outside of cities.  Without the ability to craft combat weapons or armor smithing would need a defining ability...this would be a good one.

    4. Magecraft:

    Identify:  Maybe it's my inner Dungeons and Dragons player coming out but it would be interesting to me if the full stats of Magical items could not be defined without an item first being identified.  I wouldn't mind the occassional cursed item being out there as well...

    Spellcraft: The ability to craft single use scrolls that other classes could imbue with with a spell.  I would suggest the scrolls have a long cooldown, long cast time, and a decent chance of failure.

    5. Fieldcraft:

    Foraging:  The ability to obtain simple food and drink from the wilderness.  (Should have no stats and not have the duration of prepared food/drink)

    Camping:  The ability to craft a camp for your group.  (Non combat Health and/or Mana regen bonus)  I would treat the camp bonus as an "aura".  It could also attract other people to come to you if you are out soloing and encourage social interaction.  I like the idea much more than spamming bandages and afking.  Camps should require different materials to make be they indoor or outdoor.  You could even make the camping  materials be only obtainable through foraging.  The other Idea was to have them create a "safe area" from wandering mob agro...which would be nice if your healer needs to put his/her kids to bed. I'm conserned that kind of functionality would be abused tho.

    I'll post some more ideas later, need to head to work.

    -Baulkin

     

     


    This post was edited by Baulkin at November 6, 2015 5:34 PM PST
    • 610 posts
    November 6, 2015 3:34 PM PST

    Great ideas Baulkin!

    • 85 posts
    November 6, 2015 4:58 PM PST

    I love crafting!  So I am very excited to join this discussion.

    There are so many different ways one could go as far as crafting is concerned.  A few thoughts, ideas, and suggestions:

    1)  In-game economy.  So very important to the general health of any MMO.  You always want there to be a very vibrant and active market for items.  You want items to hold value and you need to make currency scarce and difficult to hoard.  Star Wars Galaxies got this concept so very right.  I remember crafting food and having such demand for it that it was hard to keep items in stock.  All crafted items were almost totally unique.  Now how fun is that!

    2)  Game integrity.  One of the more discouraging aspects of many MMOs is the exploiting, cheating, and/or duping of items.  Not only is this a big turn off to those who are not cheaters, but it obviously seriously chips away at the economy in general.  So you need some really good coding, reporting, and follow-through to address those who choose to cheat.

    3)  Crafted Items.  The concept of segregating crafted items from dropped items could probably be a successful and enjoyable game mechanic.  What types of items could exclusively be crafted?  Some ideas:

      A)  Potions (Alchemy)

      B)  Spells / Recipes (Rune Master)

      C)  Rings / Necklaces / Belts / Charms (Jeweler)

      D)  Food (Chef)

      E)  Drink (Mixologist)

      F)  Arrows, Darts, Knives (Fletcher)

      G)  Pets (Bio-Engineer)

      H)  Augments (Augurer)

      I)   Dyes / Ornaments / Insignias (Costumier)

    4)  Interdependency.  This is as important in the crafting sphere as it is in the adventuring sphere.  So as an example, perhaps the Bio-Engineer would provide a needed componenet to modfy a food imput for Chefs or perhaps the Fletcher would provide a carving knife that was needed by the Augurer, ect...  This is how you create a social and dynamic economic system.

    5)  Harvesting system.  Then there is the decision of how to introduce the raw materials into the world so that the above crafting classes can gather and create the items.  Some of the more common ways include either mob drops or nodes.  Nodes have not had a very good track record as they typically have a very limited loot table, oftem times, just a common, uncommon, and a rare.  So what you end up with is hundreds of thousands of those items littered on auction houses.  This totally devalues the items and the potential economic value they provide to those who take the time to gather them up.  And for mob drops, what you want to be sure you design into your system, is an intuitive loot table whereby if you are looking for silk you seek out spiders, ect...  There are some other concepts that could be integrating into the harvesting system other than mob drops or nodes.  Perhaps being able to grow crops for food inputs or something similar to the Star Wars Galaxies harvesting system would also work very well.  Being able to craft items that are totally unique, similar to Star Wars Galaxies, would be fantastic.

    6)  Actual crafting mechanic.  Just click and combine, a mini game, or some other type of system.  Chance for failure.  The ability to make unique items.  The ability to improve items.  The ability to invent new recipes.  These are all important design decisions.  My vote would be for the ability for each item to be unique, probably provided for by some sort of mini game, similar to Vanguard or Star Wars Galaxies.

    So in summary, Star Wars Galaxies was the gold standard for both harvesting and crafting.  You want to create an interdependent crafting system where players need to interact and trade with each other so as to be able to make their final products.  You want money to have value by limiting its introduction into the world and then by having plenty of money sinks in which people spend their currency.  Crafted items should be valuable to players of all levels and ideally should be highly consumable so that ongoing demand remains strong.

    I recently posted some other thoughts and ideas in the Pantheon Crafting Forum for those who are interested in some additional details.

     

    • 178 posts
    November 6, 2015 9:39 PM PST

    The crated items vs dropped items also depend on the equipment mechanism you are going to be using.

    I am not sure if it has been documented. How is equipment going to be used? Is it like all MMO's since EQ where your equipment gets upgraded every 2 levels or like in EQ where the breastplate you got at level 10 is still one of the best items at level 25.

    If it's a game where equipment is upgraded every 2 levels, then having crafted items compete with dropped items isn't an issue as they will only last 2 levels before being irrelevant. If it is going to be that an item at level 20 can still be one of the best items at level 40 then competing crafting items with dropped items will erode the value of the adventure or danger that was taken to get that piece of equipment.

    Items like the Fungi Tunic or the Wurmslayer. People were still using them when twice as high a level then when they could get them.

    The crated items vs dropped items also depend on the equipment mechnism you are going to be using.

    I am not sure if it has been documented. How is equipment going to be used. Is it like all MMO's since EQ where your equipment gets upgraded every 2 levels or like in EQ where the brestplate you got at level 10 is still one of the best items at level 25.

    If it's a game where equipment is upgraded every 2 levels, then having crafted items compete with dropped items isn't an issue as they will only last 2 levels before being irrelevant. If it is going to be that an item at level 20 can still be one of the best items at level 40 then competing crafting itemsd with dropped items will errode the value of the adventure or danger that was taken to get that piece of equipment.

     

    • 610 posts
    November 7, 2015 1:30 AM PST

    Trustar said:

     

      A)  Potions (Alchemy)

      B)  Spells / Recipes (Rune Master)

      C)  Rings / Necklaces / Belts / Charms (Jeweler)

      D)  Food (Chef)

      E)  Drink (Mixologist)

      F)  Arrows, Darts, Knives (Fletcher)

      G)  Pets (Bio-Engineer)

      H)  Augments (Augurer)

      I)   Dyes / Ornaments / Insignias (Costumier)

     

     

    Great list of ideas, and I like the rest of your post as well -- this is a great thread.  I wasn't sure what the reaction would be to the idea of keeping crafted items and dropped items separate in type and purpose.

    • 357 posts
    November 7, 2015 8:21 AM PST

    Aradune i see what you are trying to do, and i applaud it, but i must say that even if gear isnt in the crafting list we still need ways to customize the gear a bit for our own playstyles. something like the EQ aug system, but more simple. instead of having 150 different aug slot types and whatnot just one type of aug slot and one type of aug. if some idiot puts a weapon aug on a piece of armor its their own fault.

    so with that said here is my ideal list for crafting:

     

    Jeweler: lets make jewelry crafting exclusive. if you want bling you gots to pay.... also i would have the augments from the above paragraph made by JC.

     

    Alchemist: Makes potions, poisons, dyes, and maybe some type of tempers for the JC or other crafts.

     

    Tinker: No im not talking Geerlok here... arrows, horseshoes, shuriken, throwing knives, vials, just kinda a catchall for everything not covered in the other crafts.

     

    Cook: Food and drink. yup you get food and drink.

     

    Diplomat: just like Diplomacy in VG you can use it to get special quests not normally available or to make quests a bit easier.


    This post was edited by Gawd at November 7, 2015 8:22 AM PST
    • 363 posts
    November 7, 2015 9:24 AM PST

     I think crafters should still be able to make armor. The dropped armor and crafted armor can still be different and equal. To me VG had the perfect system of dropped and crafted, I remember first starting VG and getting white and green dropped armor and getting pwned. I then decided to become an armorer and mad my first full set of copper armor (full green) and finally making it out of the lesser giant starting area. I also like how they made crafting a huge part of APW, the dropped armor was good and the crafting pieces that dropped that made good armor was also good but you needed a crafter to make them. There where somethings in the complications in VG crafting that didn't make since and could be reworked but to me it was the best crafting system I have seen in any of the games I have played.  I know it will be a lot of work to implement a great crafting system but I don't think just a scroll/food/potion/jewelry crafter is enough. Also VG had weaponmasters make not only weapons but procs that could go on weapons and I know most of the crafting spheres could make procs or potions for other things.

     You can even look at wardship of the sleeping moon, get armor quest but by the time you got to the chest and leg armor your hands and feet where out lvled. It's nice to have a filler with crafting if needed. I don't even know if you know or not aradune but was ever piece of armor that could be crafted, crafted in VG?

     You don't have to make a carbon copy of VG, but I do think it almost needs to be a whole almost game in itself though conected. Just my 2 cents.

    • 169 posts
    November 7, 2015 9:49 AM PST

    I go back to my post about what I desperately want from the game that I made in this crafting forum.  I never had an issue with crafted vs dropped in games like EQ2 or VG.  A system like VG where the majority of gear is crafted is great.  Dropped or quested gear should be rare and fill certain spots, but that does not mean that crafted is always the only option.  Crafted has trade offs as well.  I hate systems where you can constantly have a full suit of new gear from drops and quests every 2 levels.  I want dropped and quested gear to be rare like EQ or VG.  Man, I remember getting a piece of bronze armor in EQ...

    Crafted gear that is available in green type then blue or yellow etc, offers a range of power vs cost, while keeping a viable market.  Now, if at say level 23, there is the quested/dropped sword X that most people would love, then thats fine.  Not everyone will or can get sword X, so they may stick with crafted green or even crafted orange, etc.  I see no issues to having a MAINLY crafted gear based economy like VG or even early EQ2.  I want to see FBSS and Rubicite etc also, but I DON'T want the system of a TON of MMO where you don't bother with crafting because you get perfect complete gear every quest hub type crap...or where you want 1 special crafted item at level 50 or whatever that is essential and thats all people want from crafters.


    This post was edited by antonius at November 7, 2015 9:49 AM PST
    • 27 posts
    November 7, 2015 11:00 AM PST

    Greetings!

    So many good ideas here it's hard to know where to begin. I, too, love the crafting part of mmo's and quickly lose interest in those mmo's I play that do not have a robust crafting game and/or a weak economic game. At the risk of restating what others have said I just want to make a couple comments and observations.

    Star Wars: Galaxies

    So much can be written about this game. So totally underappreciated by current game developers. One example of a fantastic game mechanic that originated in SW:G is the 12 point experimentation system.

    1. Adventurers kill force sensitive mobs that have a chance to drop +1 or +2 "tapes" for the various tradeskill classes.

    2. Tradeskillers bought these tapes from adventurers, and afixed them to a player made piece of clothing.

    3. Collect 12, and wear them while in the experimentation phase of creating an item and you got two more experimentation "attempts" which enabled you to craft a higher quality item using the same resources as someone without this set of tapes.

    4. You get to market higher quality stuff, which makes these tapes very highly sought after. Adventurers have a reason to go to certain places and kill certain mobs. They sell these for lots of credits, and are able, then, to afford the best stuff that crafters have to offer. 

    Stuff like this creates an intricate and interwoven supply and demand cycle that enables all types of players to find success in the game. Just one example of an SW:G mechanic that we've not seen before or since in the mmo world.

     

    Crafting Armor

    I get why this is problematic. I think I still have a level 50 guardian on some EQ2 server somewhere in full Ebon gear. The best in the game (at the time). Probably not the best way to do adventure gear, I agree. But players could make augments, enhancements, adornments, etc which can give the gear desirable characteristics. Like the augments in the EQ expansion Omens of War. These were highly sought after player made enhancements to adventure armor that really provided tangible benefits to the players.

    However, I do like the idea of crafters being able to make crafting or harvesting tools, armor, etc. This makes sense to me. Also, make it meaningful. Usually what happens is that crafting armor ends up being of no benefit, because you end up not really needing it (i.e. click "combine all" and you dont need to even hasten your production skill etc).

     

    Interdependence

    EQ2 had the right idea with crafting interdependence, but they didnt have the right stuff necessary to hold to the vision. Players squawked when they had to buy a tincture or something from an alchemist, or some clasps from a smith, in order to make whatever it was they were making. I was pretty active at launch and I remember how players really didnt understand the interdependency. I remember one person complaining bitterly that someone was buying her alchemy stuff and selling it at a higher price. My suggestion, raise your prices, was met by shock and horror at such a thought. Or that someone else could enter the market and make some of the same stuff for sale driving down prices and making the end armor more affordable. Or the person who complained that he was a tailor, and that meant he should be able to tailor something all by himself without relying on any other craft. All the nuance of economics lost on people looking for immediate gratification.

     

    There's more I could write but thats it for now. I am really glad I found this game and I am excited about the prospect of helping it come to fruition.

     


    This post was edited by Romulus at November 7, 2015 11:04 AM PST
    • Moderator
    • 8671 posts
    November 7, 2015 2:59 PM PST

    Kazingathi said:

     I think crafters should still be able to make armor. The dropped armor and crafted armor can still be different and equal. To me VG had the perfect system of dropped and crafted, I remember first starting VG and getting white and green dropped armor and getting pwned. I then decided to become an armorer and mad my first full set of copper armor (full green) and finally making it out of the lesser giant starting area. I also like how they made crafting a huge part of APW, the dropped armor was good and the crafting pieces that dropped that made good armor was also good but you needed a crafter to make them. There where somethings in the complications in VG crafting that didn't make since and could be reworked but to me it was the best crafting system I have seen in any of the games I have played.  I know it will be a lot of work to implement a great crafting system but I don't think just a scroll/food/potion/jewelry crafter is enough. Also VG had weaponmasters make not only weapons but procs that could go on weapons and I know most of the crafting spheres could make procs or potions for other things.

     You can even look at wardship of the sleeping moon, get armor quest but by the time you got to the chest and leg armor your hands and feet where out lvled. It's nice to have a filler with crafting if needed. I don't even know if you know or not aradune but was ever piece of armor that could be crafted, crafted in VG?

     You don't have to make a carbon copy of VG, but I do think it almost needs to be a whole almost game in itself though conected. Just my 2 cents.

    I agree with you Kaz, VG did fill the gap between levels and quest rewards nicely, that gap could be 10 levels sometimes and crafted gear would give you a nice level appropriate upgrade that kept you competitive until a new quest or mob dropped item was available. Allowing crafters to make armour and weapons also helped keep their jobs viable and meaningful, they always had something to do to earn money or interact with other players who needed their services.

    I wouldn't want crafting to be a side thought that turns into a potion and accessory sweatshop that was only done because it was needed.

    • 357 posts
    November 7, 2015 4:00 PM PST

    ahh i just thought of a different way to go about the whole crafted vs dropped gear thing.... how about all gear being crafted? and only a few pieces of gear being quested. the quest gears would have effects that are impossible to get on crafted stuff. a good example would be an item like Jboots, or Manastone. those types of items would be gotten from quests and all other gear is crafted. there could be items that are dropped from named mobs which would allow for a better item to be crafted, but no dropped gear at all.

     

    personally i think i like this type of system better than the one where i pick up and start wearing the goblin breatplate i just got, i mean who wants to wear something they just took off of a stinky goblin? maybe a crafter would take that item and reforge it into a Goblin Slayers Breastplate, which would give it stats and AC and make it equippable.

    • 13 posts
    November 7, 2015 4:06 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Kazingathi said:

     I think crafters should still be able to make armor. The dropped armor and crafted armor can still be different and equal. To me VG had the perfect system of dropped and crafted, I remember first starting VG and getting white and green dropped armor and getting pwned. I then decided to become an armorer and mad my first full set of copper armor (full green) and finally making it out of the lesser giant starting area. I also like how they made crafting a huge part of APW, the dropped armor was good and the crafting pieces that dropped that made good armor was also good but you needed a crafter to make them. There where somethings in the complications in VG crafting that didn't make since and could be reworked but to me it was the best crafting system I have seen in any of the games I have played.  I know it will be a lot of work to implement a great crafting system but I don't think just a scroll/food/potion/jewelry crafter is enough. Also VG had weaponmasters make not only weapons but procs that could go on weapons and I know most of the crafting spheres could make procs or potions for other things.

     You can even look at wardship of the sleeping moon, get armor quest but by the time you got to the chest and leg armor your hands and feet where out lvled. It's nice to have a filler with crafting if needed. I don't even know if you know or not aradune but was ever piece of armor that could be crafted, crafted in VG?

     You don't have to make a carbon copy of VG, but I do think it almost needs to be a whole almost game in itself though conected. Just my 2 cents.

    I agree with you Kaz, VG did fill the gap between levels and quest rewards nicely, that gap could be 10 levels sometimes and crafted gear would give you a nice level appropriate upgrade that kept you competitive until a new quest or mob dropped item was available. Allowing crafters to make armour and weapons also helped keep their jobs viable and meaningful, they always had something to do to earn money or interact with other players who needed their services.

    I wouldn't want crafting to be a side thought that turns into a potion and accessory sweatshop that was only done because it was needed.

     

    ^^^This!

    As I mentioned before, this is all connected to the economy.  The player economy is one of the most important and underrated aspects of an mmorpg.  Trading amongst players is extremely vital to creating a cohesive community. 

    If weapons/armor are only dropped, what are the drop rates? How long will it take to get gear that I want?  I'm a warrior and I want a sword, will sword drops be high enough that I can always count on getting one?  What else am I finding until I get that sword?  How flooded is the economy with my unwanted daggers/staves/clubs/hammers/etc..... 

    I think one of the other important concepts to keep in mind is the fact that there are always two main phases to an mmorpg: 1. The level up phase
    2. The end game phase

    Crafting equipment can and should have a very meangingful place in the level up phase.  As mentioned, it can serve as a way to fill that gap between tiers, when you're searching for that next big phat lewt.  And the level up phase of the game should be designed to take as long as possible, which creates more opportunities for crafting equipment to be meaningful.  I like the idea of having end game crafting be focused on augments/repairing/consumables though.

     

     

     

     

    • 3 posts
    November 9, 2015 3:16 PM PST

    Furor said:

    I personally would love to see another Vanguard style crafting system. To be honest, it was the most intuitive and robust crafting system I've seen in an MMORPG.

    I think I know where you might he headed Aradune; the horseshoes for mounts in Vanguard came to my mind specifically :D

     

     

    This is my first post here and I can already tell I'm going to sound like a Vanguard homer on these forums. I couldn't agree with Furor more. If the dev's just straight ripped Vanguard's crafting system and made some tweaks for taste I'd be in heaven. There's a lot of really gread ideas in this thread I'd love to see as well, but a lot of the posts almost seem to be describing my experience of crafting in Vanguard. I can't help but wonder who here has crafted in VG and who hasn't.

    • 103 posts
    March 13, 2016 5:50 PM PDT

    Biggest things I can say about crafting is that it should not be a carpal tunnel nightmare like Everquest where you were constantly putting the right quantities in the crafting table/oven/etc and then clicking combine. Not saying you need to have a library of recipes in the UI and it is just click to auto combine like current MMOs. Something like a discovery of the recipe and then it becomes easier later on.

     

    As to what you are crafting, it has to have some tangible benefit in the game to make it worthwhile to what will likely be a long journey to master your craft. This could be cosmetic such as clothing/armor that changes your visual appearance, but that relegates the crafting skills to more of a niche that might not attract everyone. 

    A factor that could strongly impact this is how the interdependance on crafting will occur. Can one player learn all of the crafting skills? Are they limited to a certain number? Are there specializations? Does a crafter need materials from other crafters to complete that they cannot make on their own?

    If you go the limited benefit items (Stone Skin potions) does the crafting feel like a job to enable your guild raid to function due to the time sink to make this limited use item that ends up getting used every single pull on the raid boss?

    Armor crafting can be the bridge step between the character that is trying to do something at max level and just has horrible RNG getting that last drop they need from the camp that is always crowded. It might not be as good as end game gear, but gives them an option to participate in the player economy to accomplish their goals through another method that still feels like an accomplishment. If twinking is a fear you can still put minimum character levels to equip the item if necessary. 

    • 66 posts
    March 18, 2016 10:16 AM PDT

    This looks like a necro'ed thread, but yeah I really like Aradune's origonal comments on crafting.  In fact I came to this forum looking for specifics on how they would address how useless crafting seems in other games.  It always seems to me like crafting is a money sink and a waste of time because there is better stuff to be found through questinng or raiding or whatever and it's easier to get.

    I love the idea of letting the crafters make other stuff that can't be found through any other means.  Like in WoW how you could only get gems and augments for your gear through crafters.  That was a great use of their time.  They made something that people wanted and that could only be obtained from them.

    Or another thought along those lines might be that you couldn't use something you had gotten through raiding until a crafter 'attuned it to you'.  Or maybe when raiding or questing you got the 'tarnished breastplate' but a crafter could fix it up and turn it into 'the shining breastpalte of the whale' or something.  Makes both raiding and crafting necessary and complimentary.

    • 257 posts
    March 18, 2016 2:32 PM PDT

    Just wanted to say that I for one love crafting. If they let me (with enough character slots. Or second account) I will create every crafter no matter how much time it takes to max them all. I just love crafting that much. I do like Kilsin's comments that crafters need to not be a second thought. They should be on equal footing with adventurers. 

     

    Pyde Pyper

    • 82 posts
    March 19, 2016 9:28 AM PDT

    Regardless of whether a game has robust or minimal crafting systems, I always find the sounds/music to be tedious and really uninteresting.  The world is always given such unique,lively, and engaging music to draw you into the experience more.

    How can crafting sound and music be utilized rather than just slapped on sound effects? This is especially important if crafting is an actual process requiring time and focus rather than a set it and forget it.

    • 33 posts
    March 20, 2016 1:35 PM PDT

    Josi said:

    Furor said:

    I personally would love to see another Vanguard style crafting system. To be honest, it was the most intuitive and robust crafting system I've seen in an MMORPG.

    I think I know where you might he headed Aradune; the horseshoes for mounts in Vanguard came to my mind specifically :D

     

     

    This is my first post here and I can already tell I'm going to sound like a Vanguard homer on these forums. I couldn't agree with Furor more. If the dev's just straight ripped Vanguard's crafting system and made some tweaks for taste I'd be in heaven. There's a lot of really gread ideas in this thread I'd love to see as well, but a lot of the posts almost seem to be describing my experience of crafting in Vanguard. I can't help but wonder who here has crafted in VG and who hasn't.

     

    I absolutely loved the Vanguard crafting and diplomacy mini-game approach.  Really hoping that it finds a home in Pantheon.  If I am dreaming then maybe have those also accessible accessible via gateway outside of game for those time when we are stuck at work!  (A ranger can dream of stocking up on arrows can't he?!?!)


    This post was edited by DaveBowers at March 20, 2016 1:36 PM PDT
    • 44 posts
    March 29, 2016 3:14 AM PDT

    I agree on some points in this thread I believe that some of the craft items should be better then raid drops and some not as good they should compliment each other the weapon smith can make a shield that for tanking is the best in game but the sword dropped from the boss in this raid hear is the best. In that raid their you get the best boots and the best puldrons are crafted by an armor smith the tailor makes the best padding for the breatplate while the leather worker make the best padding for the back and so on this will push players to want to raid and will push players to want to craft. lets say you can have 2 main trades say animal husbandry and leather working, or miner and sword smith or what ever you call them or maybe they want to be a farmer/cook or have primary and secondary you can be an armor smith which allows you to gather the material from the world and make plate and chain armor. I know WoW you could have  2 primary and 2 secondary so miner/blacksmith and fishing/cooking or you could mix it up and have all gathering trades to sell all the stuff and so on. the WoW was just an example after vanilla the crafting in WoW basically sucked. This system would  compliment the raid drops, compete with them and also make them better. You have a robust economy and players need to work with each other to improve each other's characters. When expantiions come out change it up a bit so players make different things once in a while as in well now that raid has the best shield but the weapon smith makes the best daggers and so on this way the older items will still be needed by new characters leveling up older character will replace their gear and will need to get from different players and so on. As for keeping oldre dungeons I favor with players either achievements or certain random rare loot drops not sure how to solve that issue. One thing though no trade skills should compete with class abilities so if younwant SoW either roll a class tat can cast it or gripoup up with said classes. No potions of translocation or res potions or anything that removes class roles. 

    • 239 posts
    March 29, 2016 10:17 AM PDT
    My only thoughts on consumables such as potions have never been found in past games. The mentality was always to keep them for O Shït moments and people never really just used them freely. I believe the reason being money. If im a warrior and I dont use potions but still get the job done than I just saved myself a bit of coins even if I should have.

    I give you a standing applaud on making crafting and drops diffrent and I have several old post exactly about that topic.
    Imagine if you lived in Qeynos and you wanted to go to Halas. In Eq you just ran the several zones in between them watching out for mobs. What if you needed to find a crafter to make you some thick fur gear so you would not freeze to death once you reached colder climates. You could only get those items from your local crafter and he makes them from poler bear belts he purchased from a traveling barbarian trader.
    • 591 posts
    April 4, 2016 4:06 AM PDT

    I don't see a problem with crafters making "good" standard equipment (non magical stuff like banded armor or studded leather in EQ, or crafted bows). That should include equipment for all classes however. For example, in EQ fine plate armor requires quite a high skill of blacksmithing already, so tank classes would probably directly go from banded armor to dropped armor pieces instead of looking for a fine plate crafter.

    The trade off for wearing such stuff is that it isn't magical and doesn't have any stats (except AC), and you're limited by your starting stats (STR most importantly, armor has quite some weight). So it is in your best interest to look for upgrades as soon as possible.

    I also don't see a problem with higher end stuff competing with dropped items, especially if making said higher level items requires drops from adventuring. Of course it should not be possible for a crafter to make uber_breastplate just from vendor bought items! But if you include harvesting in high level, dangerous areas, and/or drops from difficult monsters, why should such items not be alternatives to dropped items? It's the designers job to make sure that neither route is significantly easier than the other.