Forums » Crafting

Crafting and adventuring should be intervowen

    • 155 posts
    August 21, 2015 11:57 AM PDT

    Example of how NOT to do crafting quests:

    - Craft 20 of this, 30 of that, get +50 crafting exp, wash rinse repeat 20 times.

       Boring

     

     

    Example of how to do it right:

     

    - A crafter gets a quest to create a Key to the Depths in the Dark Undercity. The Undercity is a large dungeon (comparable with Old Sebilis or Lower Guk), and halfway through, there is a gate barring the passage deeper in. Somewhere nearby, before the gate, there is a lava flow and a forge. A full group has to clear to there. Behind the gate, there is more of the dungeon, of interest to any adventurer, but they need a crafter to fashion the key, which can only be made there in that forge.

    The key is single-use. Each descent there requires a crafter to come. When he comes there, he can start an event, he crafts, and waves of mobs come and attack the group. While he crafts, the remaining members of the group have to fight and keep the mobs off his back. Crafting event takes 5-10 min.

    To spice it up, the composition of mobs should vary a bit from event to event - sometimes spawn some wizard mobs, at other times heavy melee mobs, etc. Repeating the event two or three times should result in somewhat different fights each time.

    The guaranteed reward is the one-use key and crafting exp, and adventuring exp for fighting mobs. You can add a rare reward - an item for adventurers and/or a crafting recipe. The crafting exp should be equivalent to grinding through quite a bunch of crafted items.

    Then they go to the gate, use the key, and move in, deeper into the dungeon. The boss deeper in has a higher chance of dropping a crafting recipe, so the crafter has an interest in staying in group.

    Not boring.

     

    In both cases, a significant amount of time is spent. My goal is not to lessen the time or effort.

    But it should be done in a manner that's not mind-numbingly repetitive.

    In addition, besides not being boring, it should be done in a way that makes adventurers need crafters, and that also makes crafters need adventurers. Interdependency is a good thing, a healthy relationship for a MMO.

     

    • 666 posts
    August 21, 2015 12:21 PM PDT

    Neat idea, Aethor. 

     

    For too many games crafting is done as an afterthought and the craftsfolk are marginalized because their wares are sub-standard.  Let's turn the tables.

     

    I've always thought that a good crafting system would allow me to make items that were above the quality of drops.   Rather than have the "uber breastplate of warding" drop directly from the dragon, let the dragon drop a key component that needed to be crafted by someone of appropriate level/skill.   This could happen at all levels, from noob gear to raid items with drops from appropriate mobs.   The best crafted gear at level 20 would be fashioned from the toughest level 20'ish mobs, etc...  

     

    I'm with you all the way on the traditional crafting skill grind.   I always felt my physiotherapist was getting more skill-ups from treating my wrists than I was getting in game at the crafting table.   On the other hand, there needs to be some system in place for earning the skill-ups to achieve mastery.   One solution would be to increase the chance of getting a skill-up when creating an item, but make the components more difficult, interesting and fun to acquire.

     

    It will be interesting to see what the VRI team comes up with once they turn their attention to this critical aspect of the game.


    This post was edited by Celandor at August 21, 2015 12:22 PM PDT
    • 30 posts
    August 21, 2015 1:03 PM PDT

    I definitely dig this idea.

    This would provide an incentive for the atypical "crafter" archetype to come out the confines of town or harvesting nodes and actually participate in some PvE.

    This is great for the above reason, as well as keeping groups of players going.  If crafters are thrown into the PvE mix through incentives suddenly dungeon groups are filling much easier/quicker.

    Where I could see it getting messy is there's 3 crafters in your group; who gets to do the event and gain that nice chunk of crafting xp?  Or is it given to everyone the same way that the crafter is getting adventure xp even though he's not fighting? 

    If THAT is the case (everyone getting crafting and adventuring xp) then you have to ensure that the crafting station and the item they're making is a general crafting recipe...otherwise if only let's say a "Tinker" can make keys (and thus the xp is only for that kind of craft)...the other crafters have no incentive to be in the group.

    • 421 posts
    August 21, 2015 4:31 PM PDT

    Most likely I am in the minority here . I am NOT a fan of forcing me to craft when I dislike crafting , however I see no problem with flagging or needing to be keyed to gain entry into perhaps very rare raid areas . Having said that I did find Vanguard crafting to be good without tedious repetition .

    • 30 posts
    August 21, 2015 4:46 PM PDT
    Shea said:

    Most likely I am in the minority here . I am NOT a fan of forcing me to craft when I dislike crafting , however I see no problem with flagging or needing to be keyed to gain entry into perhaps very rare raid areas . Having said that I did find Vanguard crafting to be good without tedious repetition .


    I don't think this idea would be forced crafting, but it provides incentives for both parties (PvE folks to go deeper, crafters for xp/loots)

     

    • 24 posts
    August 21, 2015 9:40 PM PDT

    Crafting sure does need to be more meaningful and I do like the idea of tieing it into adventuring. Crafted gear also needs to be equal to top end game gear, but maybe that could be thru raids component drops or decon'd raid gear items making components.

    What would be compelling would be raid drops that only fit a certain race, but could be crafting altered to fit certain other classes ( a Pixie tunic ain't ever going to fit an Ogre :) etc )

     

    • 504 posts
    August 22, 2015 7:12 AM PDT

    Great idea, me likes :)

    • 86 posts
    August 22, 2015 8:40 AM PDT

    I do not mind crafting being interwoven with adventuring. Then again I do not mind if its not. Some mention they do not like the repetitive trivial combines but when you look it it is realistic to an extent. If you are a blacksmith just because you have the mats needed you cant walk to a forge and create "uber sword of awesomeness". First you need to hone your skills making lesser grade items. I would not mind them having items you have to craft to progress further up the skill tree. Each time you reach the next tier you need to collect a batch of special mats and craft the item to unlock the next tier. Crafting is always a hard thing to balance. Some games are two dependent other games it means nothing.

     

    One thing I like back in EQ not sure if its that way now but you could only be a grandmaster in one trade. You could still train other crafting skills but could only go so far. I do not think everyone should be able to master each craft. I am all for raid or quest drop stuff for crafting. It adds another dynamic to the game for sure.

    • 666 posts
    August 22, 2015 10:03 PM PDT

    I'm not sure how I feel about polymath craftspeople.  Not allowing them certainly encourages you to spawn alts, but I don't know if it has any positive impact on the game.  We're all kind of used to flipping to an alt to change crafting modes but I'm not sure if that's a good thing.   It may just be an inconvenience we've come to accept.   We're going to have to invest considerable time, ingredients and probably coin to level up each trade skill.   Does it really matter which character we do it on? 

    • 158 posts
    August 22, 2015 11:12 PM PDT

    I kindof have to disagree with this. I am not a gigantic crafter but I feel like you are trying to 'fix' the system for people who inherently do not like crafting. I know a lot of players who love crafting in mmos even in the "boring" way you outlined and there is a certain fantasy that goes together with that. Hammering a sword one minute then slaying a dragon to craft your next doesn't exactly fit said fantasy.

     

    Its a nice concept but isn't an all around improvement of crafting. It should be an optional addition I think.

    • 363 posts
    August 23, 2015 12:47 AM PDT

    I have said it before and will say again VG had a great crafting system though I do believe it needed to be refined a bit. In it's self it was a whole other game. You even got crafting gear and tools to help you craft, the complications is where it needed a little tweaking, and it wasn't the same old hammer out mind numbing amount of copper swords to get to lvl 10. You got work orders could learn 3 different contenant styles and probably more I have left out. You also had to have top tier crafters to make your apw uber gear, and you got rare crafting drops too in apw. If it's VG like I will like it and I'm not a crafter.

    • 17 posts
    August 23, 2015 1:14 AM PDT

    I'm kind of torn on an idea like this.  It does sound somewhat fun, but there are a few concerns with it. 

     

    For one, I would hate if it was overused and became a part of every dungeon in the game.  That might sound like a silly fear, but I feel like it happens a lot with new game mechanics, and it ends up making these mechanics just as tedious as the old ones.  

     

    I also would hate to feel like crafting was required in order to adventure.  Obviously I personally wouldn't have to craft because I could just bring a crafter along, but somewhere along the lines someone is kind of being forced to craft in order to not be left behind with adventuring.  This is no bueno.  Sure there will be plenty of people who want to craft AND adventure, but I feel like it's too much to ask for it to be practically mandatory.  I think that crafting and adventuring should be separate, aside from finding crafting materials and even recipes while adventuring.'

     

    On the other hand, It really isn't any different than having to bring someone who can pick locks, and I like that aspect of the game.  It makes certain classes more desirable in certain situations.  This is why I'm torn...I like it for some reasons, but don't like it for others.

    Just my thoughts, we will see how they do it.


    This post was edited by mjcuba at August 23, 2015 12:21 PM PDT
    • 155 posts
    August 23, 2015 12:06 PM PDT
    mjcuba said:

    For one, I would hate if it was overused and became a part of every dungeon in the game.  That might sound like a silly fear, but I feel like it happens a lot with new game mechanics, and it ends up making these mechanics just as tedious as the old ones.  

     

    I also would hate to feel like crafting was required in order to adventure. 

     

    1) The idea was given simply to illustrate the point that different aspects of the game (crafting, adventuring, and if you played Vanguard, diplomacy) should be interwoven. I didn't try to make a perfect design.

    As for overusing, that's up to the dev/design team. They (hopefully) are capable of estimating what's the right balance.

     

    2) When the different aspects are interwoven, then there is a dependency. Not avoidable, in fact it's the point.

    If they aren't, then there's not much point in doing them in the first place.

     

    3) You wouldn't be required to craft in order to adventure. After all, you can go into a different dungeon. But some places might have requirements of this or that kind. As you said, it might be needed to have someone who can pick locks and/or disarm traps. Or someone with a specific faction, to trigger a quest or an event.

    • 421 posts
    August 23, 2015 12:30 PM PDT

    Diplomacy , One of the best parts of Vanguard . I thoroughly enjoyed going to starter areas and putting up all the buffs for the new folks . reminded me of the good ole days in Everquest going around buffing everyone on my Shaman ... Okay back to crafting :):):):)

    • 363 posts
    August 23, 2015 12:56 PM PDT

    I knew a few crafters in VG that wanted nothing to do with raiding or adventuring also knew a couple of diplos the same way. VG did it right though you didn't necessarily need to adventure to do either of those spheres unless you wanted the high end crafting of apw which you had to get keyed, but all they had to do was be in a key raid group didn't even have to hit the fungal guy if I remember right. I believe the team will do it right and make it all fun and interesting. But they do have a VG bar to meet 8b. 

    • 106 posts
    August 24, 2015 5:09 PM PDT
    Shea said:

    Diplomacy , One of the best parts of Vanguard . I thoroughly enjoyed going to starter areas and putting up all the buffs for the new folks . reminded me of the good ole days in Everquest going around buffing everyone on my Shaman ... Okay back to crafting :):):):)

     

    I liked diplomacy in Vanguard too, but I always wondered why they revamped it late in the development process. I thought the first version had potential too.

    • 749 posts
    August 24, 2015 5:20 PM PDT

    I think Vanguard had the best crafting system of any game to date.  One of the elements that was particularly exciting and engaging about the system was the incentive for moving throughout the world to craft in different regions, whether it be for work orders or to learn the individual styles of crafting (or just simply to get out of the same city and see something new!).  I also loved finding obscure crafting camps and lesser known workstations outside of the major cities/villages.  Encouraging craftsmen to be travelers and explorers is a great way to keep things from becoming tedious.

     

    As has been mentioned, I think its absolutely vital that all spheres of a game have elements of interdependence otherwise you effectively draw a line in the sand; you're either a craftsman or an adventurer at any given time, never both.  I won't pretend to have the answers to how you accomplish this but many of the ideas you have all presented certainly seem like a great place to begin exploring the topic.

     

    Edit for spelling


    This post was edited by Nikademis at August 26, 2015 5:10 PM PDT
    • 30 posts
    August 26, 2015 5:47 PM PDT
    Vanguard was good, but the best crafting in a game I've seen so far in terms of the act of crafting itself is ffxiv by far. In terms of crafting being where it should be in the hierarchy of gear and the customization, swg.
    I realize with a title like this we definitely won't get the amazing ffxiv style crafting where you have skills and entire classes dedicated to it, but if we could combine those two....man.
    • 12 posts
    September 9, 2015 3:53 PM PDT

    So the idea of the thread is good in depth game play and dependencies . But anything contrived is not good game play .

    So the forge an item on the spot is a great option , but this should be layered with other options based on other charecteristic's embeded into the environment.

    A chance for a key to actually drop off of a dead body , a secret passage that bypasses the gate , s strength check . A scroll with a prepared spell .... and we can go on and on and on . Depth is about the game systems layered around true game play that provides options.

    A variety of options maybe 200 could be generated but only 3 available at any one time would mean people having to play the game rather than "google it" lets have something dynamic where people work together to progress with variation.  

    • 357 posts
    September 20, 2015 1:40 PM PDT

    Another option to make crafting and adventuring interwoven is to make crafters wanted in and of themselves. say you have a group, this group has 6 members and the cleric is a blacksmith. the cleric can therefore sharpen swords, polish armor, and repair metal equips in the field.

    sharpening and polishing would give the equips themselves buffs, these buffs would not be on the character so they could be added ontop of the normal character buffs from the classes. repairing, well everyone can see this benefit right?

    • 353 posts
    September 23, 2015 7:11 AM PDT

    I hope they lay the foundation for a great turn based crafting system similar to Vanguard but I don't think we need to go much beyond simple items and consumables for the initial release.

     

    Leave the deeper crafting for future expansions and just get the world as fleshed out as possible imo.

     

    If it comes between getting some more zones or a fully fleshed out crafting system on launch I'll take the zones.

     

     

    Thanks,

    Kiz~

    • 9 posts
    October 3, 2015 10:25 PM PDT

    Didn't EQ kind of do this? Of course crafting didn't come into it's own until Velious. But I always thought the crafting system, although barren to todays standards, was pretty good. It forced the player to adventure in some way shape of for. Don't wanna farm the mats? Buy them from a player...but you still need to farm that plat. So you really couldn't get away from the adventuring aspect of the game as a crafting in EQ. The idea's behind the system works IMO. The execution? Well, they have a lot more experience VS back in 1999-2001.

     

    On the subject of crafting VS adventuring. I feel developers separate the two way too much. Too much to the point that crafting high end gear isn't work it. Work months and months to get a high crafting skill...just to be trumped by some drop in a dungeon. We wont even compare it to raid gear...because apparently it's much more difficult/time consuming to raid VS dedicating to a craft. I feel, to date, that's the developers fault. So essecially the assume that hardcore crafters aren't raiders, and as such...don't need high level gear. Why? Because all they do is harvest/farm crafting mats.

     

    Once developers stop treating crafting players as a red headed stepchild, I think the MMO industry can move on from their fears about crafters and the gear they can make (they don't actually kill for the gear, so therefore it should be easily replaceable gear). As it stands, though, I think Panteon will probably go the same route. The fact that the crafting system needs to be finished/fleshed out post release doesn't fill me with that much confidence. Even if they blur the lines between the two play styles, the MMO standard still seems to be: cruddy gear > > crafted/quested >>>>>dungeon drops >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raid loot. I think that's where the problem truely lies. I HOPE VRI breaks this trend. Make crafting worth it if the crafters are going to go out there and put their neck out for some rare mats off difficult mobs...just for it to be something that has no value.

     

     

    • 258 posts
    October 7, 2015 12:48 PM PDT

    I tend to not craft in MMO's as I'd rather spend my time adventuring.  That said, I hate being forced into crafting.  Nothing kills a game faster for me than being forced to level up blacksmithing for example so I can craft my raid gear.  Crafting is fine with me, as long as I dont have to do it.  I'd rather hire a crafter to slap together my raid armor.

     

    Edit:  As a side note, my crafting ability should have zero impact on my adventuring prowess.  We've seen this in WoW, where maxing out your blacksmithing will net you +stamina.  Not having this bonus is a huge negative in the eyes of your peers.  I'd like to avoid this kind of obligation to level crafting.


    This post was edited by Dekaden at October 7, 2015 2:36 PM PDT
    • 18 posts
    October 13, 2015 10:04 PM PDT

    FFXIV, ESO, and WildStar all have different takes on crafting, and none used the "20 cloth belts" routine. Despite my dislike of mini games as part of my crafting routine, FFXIV allows you to have direct control over how high quality the item is you're going to make given the skills used during the crafting process. It feels far more "hand made" than other MMOs I've played because everything you craft requires you to use skills, buffs, time extension, resource regeneration, and more in order to eek out every scrap of quality for that item. It's even possible ot fail a craft because you didn't manage your resources well.

    WildStar allows you to highly customize the traits on a piece of gear you're crafting. The main idea is that once you've learned all of the introductory pieces of gear for the slots, you gain access to rare versions of each one. Crafting two of each of the rares unlocks epic options. Each stage requires more rare ingredients. You also have entire talent trees for crafting and you customize what you want your focus to be: higher overall success, better chance for mismatched sockets, fewer overall required ingredients, etc. Each of the tiers in the talent trees offers three options and each tier is unlocked by maxing all of the crafts in each quality level to earn talent skill points. Each crafter can choose their overall preferences for what they feel makes their crafting more successful.

    ESO went a very different way with crafting. In order to learn how to craft an item, you needed to research it first. Research time was real time and the more traits you researched, the longer it'd take (upwards of a month for a single trait). The benefit of researching more traits for a gear slot was that you could craft gear in that slot that were part of sets and set gear was the best gear. They also allowed you to craft racial-skinned gear as long as you'd found the books discovered by exploring the world (searching treasure chests, cabinets, bookcases, etc.). Interestingly, the fastest way to level a craft was the trade items you crafted with someone else in the same profession. Disenchanting each other's items garnered the best xp. That definitely created some community.

    In Land of Britain, they say that crafters will be playable main class and that dungeons will benefit from having crafters in the party. Something similar to what the OP described in terms of doors or pathways only being unlocked by specific crafters could make for an enjoyable expansion of the typical dungeon runs. Neverwinter does this a tiny bit in that secret passages, rooms, and content can be unlocked by players with a specific crafting skill, have a passive from a specific class, or own a kit that allows attempts to pick a lock or move a bookcase, etc.

    Bottom line: I'm all for having a reason to craft other than just filling in a gap where you may not have received a dropped upgrade in 5-10 levels. Too often, crafting is just something offered an MMO, but it never really makes a difference, espeically after reaching max level. I think RIFT really excels in this regard as you can craft legendary items, but also every craft can produce items for personal housing which means every craft has a purpose, even at max level. At max level, typically the only valuable crafts are alchemy and cooking since folks want raid buffs.


    This post was edited by Organic at October 13, 2015 10:07 PM PDT
    • 31 posts
    October 15, 2015 10:42 AM PDT

    My idea to interweave crafting with adventuring would improve on the same reward a group without crafters would receive, not allow something entirely new that would not be possible without a specific crafter in group.

    Some spitball ideas I thought of in 5-10 mins:

    Group kills a rat. Raw rat meat is dropped. Group loots the raw rat meat which has a pretty short spoil timer. After the timer expires, the raw rat meat spoils and its vendor value drops dramatically. Alternatively, a chef in the group could salt or otherwise preserve the meat to preserve the higher vendor loot value. 

    Similar concept for a herbologist or alchemist with a dropped mushroom or something like that.

    Also, say you kill a named guard who drops his shield. An armorsmith could engrave the mob's name and date or whatever into the shield before leaving the area or zone. This boosts the vendor value as now it's viewed as a collector item. Similar with a dropped sword and a weaponsmith engraves.

    Someone with more imagination than me could come up with ideas for the remaining tradeskills :)


    This post was edited by maslo at October 15, 2015 1:37 PM PDT