Forums » Crafting

Crafting- My opinions

    • 50 posts
    March 3, 2015 4:04 AM PST

    So happy to hear in the 2-28-15 round table that crafting would be in at launch, but the scope of it may be different than what they want to eventually see it as.

     

    So as someone who has crafted in almost every mmo released, and grown up with the evolution of mmos I can really say I have seen some of the best crafting systems ever made, and a majority of the worst ones thought out and implemented. My hope and goal is to prevent Pantheon from being one of the ones that makes it on the latter part of my first statement.

     

    So when you think of crafting you automatically know you are going to be taking items to either refine them, or break them down to make the materials you will need to either discover, or utilize the recipe you have found to make that awesome sword or ball of yarn you have always wanted.

     

    What most MMOs have done with their crafting it use it as a tack on system that is just there to either appease the lowest level of crafting available, or just give random junk a little more meaning. Which is always a letdown, and can really make it not fun for the community, and end up in really just a waste of development time.

     

    Things that I feel that really need to be avoided are systems that are the super simple click and done system ALA WoW. This just always feels lack luster, and never really makes it feel like an integrated part of the universe/ world within the game.

    Another thing to try and avoid is the Complete Random Number Game that other systems have used such as Aion, and FFXIV ( While FFXIV does support a more involved crafting system closer to EQ2's style it still very heavily focuses on RNG and gear that runs off of RNG ) The RNG systems are always frustrating, and leave a sour taste in people's mouths making it feel like the system was again a last minute idea, and something that just doesn't benefit the game.

     

    Now moving on to some of the more memorable systems and Ideas such as SWG, EQ2, Vanguard. All of these systems have one thing in common it took either skill time, or both in order to make items, and by doing that it really gave you the sense that you had accomplished that action, and prevented the game from feeling like the crafting system was just tacked on, but that it was really mean to help enhance the game. It also made the game feel like by doing the crafting in anyway wasnt a waste of time, but something that you could use to help advance yourself.

     

    I know that the Dev team for Pantheon has really been talking about a player driven economy.  This really means crafters need to play a big part in this, and more realistically harvesters need to play a big part in it as well.

     

    When systems are made people always look at it as a time sink. So when some people look at crafting they are like well I want to just whip something up, but in doing so you are making the most basic system, and in return for such a low time input the items can not be worth as much as other items obtained in the word since it wouldn't make sense to just give them items away to a super simple crafting system and then require people who want to go out and find items IE dungeon crawling and make them the same quality due to the different amounts of difficulty, and time spent required to obtain the items. So what more often than not happens is the crafting system is then nerfed to where the items created are normally useless or close to it.

     

    Though SWG was just a click to make crafting system there was a bigger focus on time needed to actually combine the items via a processing plant (cant remember the name of that machine you would pretty much sit next to ), and the fact that the higher and more advanced crafting was require to be done by classes made specifically for crafting and commercialism I think they were called traders it's just been so long. This really balanced out the time vs reward aspect, but was normally very boring, and required you to find really high quality materials to craft with and extract them as well as the time spent just getting the resources. This really put a huge time sink in to get the items, but the economy and items obtained were all through the supply and crating of the player economy which in the end made the whole process worth it even though it may have been boring just waiting for timers to run down to get finished items.

    EQ2 in the beginning had a really in depth crafting system that took a lot of time to make items, but did reward you for it through the while process helping you level by refining metals into ingots, and then make the base layer items to help build the final item ( this was all replaced fairly early on and the raw mats where then used to just make the final items. ) I enjoyed both styles of this, and since it was still a fairly decent time requirement to make decent items as well as the need for rare materials, and certain recipes being drop from dungeons only ( in vanilla not in expansions ) it created a co dependence on crafters and adventurers ( or rewarding you for adventuring if you also liked to craft ) This to me was a really nice way to have this done.

    Also as far as the crafting process went it was also engaging as you were essentially in combat with the IE sowing machine, and could even die from it

    ( which was hilarious when that happened ). You were given skills as you leveled up, and "complications" would arise that you would need to correct in kind of a time / click game. The HUGE downfall to this system was that if for any reason you needed to leave to do something say answer the door, check on a screaming child, or prevent your monsterous dog from peeing in the floor you would probably break the item failing the crafting encounter, or die which would also cause a failure. Outside of that issue the system worked well, kept you engaged, and was rewarding to due and useful in game.

     

    Vanguard- Probably everyone's favorite in the room ( or at least memorable ). Was by far the most in depth, and thought out  crafting system made to date. Not only was it a system built in to the game it literally was one of the main aspects of the game or Sphere. You had Adventuring, Crafting, and Diplomacy. Now don't get me wrong it took years to get the bugs out of it, and get it working ( not even up to normal or complete standards ). This system still even after all of that really felt like a more refined EQ2 crafting system. There wasn't a constant pressure to click this, or freak out and be like I need to answer the door, but if I do ill waste my super rare materials. Though it still offered the complexity and in depth workings of a really though out system. The implementation was just a little shaky due to the bugs. Crafting was also coupled with the gathering side of it. Where instead of fighting over resources you were rewarded for having more people with you to go out and harvest. So if you were out and adventuring and found some star ore you would start gathering your group or asking the guild for help to get all you could out of that rare node. This was a great social experience and bonding moment for groups and guilds it really promoted teamwork and helping people out which in return was highly rewarding.

    Vanguards crafting system was also very rewarding not only in the items you made, but the fact that it really felt super connected to the world and not a waste of time to do as some really really powerful stuff was made by crafters only rivaled by raid gear which was super hard to get ( especially before the raid was released lol ).

    The system really made you think tactically about the crafting process. You were given X amount of labor points to complete the recipe. You then had to take into account the very limited RNG for complications that would cost a few extra points, but would normally reward you by doing them as well. Then you also had to look at the Risk VS reward for putting in more points to get a grade A item, or just finishing it for a grade C. You not only needed resources, but special tools for certain recipes, and after crafting long enough you started to learn what other extra items you would need to equip such as extra acid wash, or bandages. I know that this system was supposed to let you know upfront what the required items were, but it just never got finished to let you know all the stuff you needed.

    This system also presented you with a somewhat of an encounter, but also it didn't put an artifical time limit on the encounter either letting you take your time to plan what you needed to do, and just in case you needed to step away from the game you were not punished as you could come back to it and finish it up as long as you stayed in the crafting process. I actually much preferred this to EQ'2 system as it would outline the crafting skills in its own UI rather than forcing you you have hot bars just for crafting.

     

    I really do hope the plan for crafting in Pantheon is a refined Vanguard system that will encompass gathering, and take a few of the frustrations out of that system and really push it forward like brads games have done in the past. It's just very important that the system isnt just slapped on and overly simplified just for the sake of doing it, but that it is a labor of love and crafted with the mind set of people actually playing the game just for the crafting aspect.

     

    Also I would really like to say thank you for anyone who has taken the time out of their day to read this. I am fully open to go more in depth on any aspect, or to go into more detail about certain systems I have used in the past and how I would like Pantheons crafting to turn out to be.


    This post was edited by Docka at March 5, 2015 8:08 AM PST
    • 224 posts
    March 3, 2015 5:57 AM PST

    I always say SWG had done the Craftin/Sales very well.  Especially because you actually wanted/needed to go find these craft items to build half the stuff in the game.  There was just so much in depth thought into player cities, ships, planets, guild ships etc.

    • 160 posts
    March 3, 2015 6:24 AM PST

    Unless something has changed in recent weeks week's the last I heard is there will be no crafting system at launch.  It will be put in at  later date after release as an XPAC or something. Good and bad.  I wont be online when my friends aren't as well as with out there is no economy.

     

    Just a kill and level game not a sand-box if you will.

    • Moderator
    • 8628 posts
    March 3, 2015 6:26 AM PST
    Chaam said:

    Unless something has changed in recent weeks week's the last I heard is there will be no crafting system at launch.  It will be put in at  later date after release as an XPAC or something. Good and bad.  I wont be online when my friends aren't as well as with out there is no economy.

     

    Just a kill and level game not a sand-box if you will.

    Listen to the latest Developer Round Table mate. I even published a written version and put it in the main post.

    We will have Crafting in at launch but it may be a base system that will be worked on throughout the game after launch depending on resources.

    • 158 posts
    March 3, 2015 7:40 AM PST

    I almost peed myself to see the dev recap include crafting at launch, I will listen to it tonight when I get home.

     

    Docka, great post and well thought out.  Aradune mentioned way back that Pantheon crafting would be more VG like and inspired from VG than EQ.  I suspect that still holds true.


    This post was edited by Exmortis at March 4, 2015 5:39 AM PST
    • 831 posts
    March 3, 2015 8:10 AM PST

    I generally do crafting in an MMO - because it feels like I need to do a craft... and then once it's mastered, I almost never do the craft.

     

    Why?  Because in today's MMO's, there generally seems to be no reason to do the crafting yourself.  You gain... nothing - or not enough to merit your time.

     

    Here's an example:  Potions in WoW.  Sure, you can make your own potions - but to do so, you spend time harvesting herbs.  Spend the same amount of time doing something else, you probably have enough to buy the potion.  Harvest but don't do alchemy?  Well, the components sell for the same amount (usually) as the combined potion... again, net even.

     

    Do you tailor instead?  Your net gain is a flying carpet... not gear you will actually use.

     

    SO - my first requirement is that I want my craft to be a prized, valuable component of my game play. 

     

    I haven't had that since EQ when I had an alt Shaman I got from a friend of mine who quit EQ... because I was a ranger and I could make gate potions on the shaman.  Worth it's weight in platinum.

     

    Second - and this one I know would be very costly to implement... I want each trade to feel like each trade, not the same trade with different pictures.  Oddly, every MMO does this with exactly ONE trade.  Fishing.  When you fish in an MMO, you cast a line into the water, you watch your bobber, you try to catch your fish...

     

    But if you harvest?  Whether you mine, herb, whatever - it's the same as doing the other harvesting skills...

     

    If you do a production trade?  Whether you are a tailor, a blacksmith, a baker, whatever - it's all the same.

     

    It would be sort of awesome if each trade (even if it meant a very limited set of trades that could be expanded over time) - took the same effort to "Feel" like you were actually doing it that fishing does.

    • 13 posts
    March 3, 2015 9:23 AM PST

    Definitely on board with you Docka.  It saddens me to say that I didn't get to experience VG, it was just not a game that I was aware of at the time.  I do love the sounds of its crafting system, however.  I love crafting in most MMO's I've played and am quite prepared to invest a lot of my time in to it (usually to the point of irritation for the other members of my party - cough...Nikademis - cough). Lol. 

     

    That said, there are very few crafting systems out there that I feel have ever captivated me enough.  As you said the "one click and done style" just isn't very rewarding.  It is also incredibly frustrating when, as an example, you reach the point where you can smelt iron ingots only to get 2 points out of it before it goes grey, but you still have 250 ingots to smelt.  Not a very balanced, rewarding, or interesting system.  It also gets disheartening when you have to create 17 "Hardened Shoulders of [insert cliche animal/power/effect]" just for the sake of leveling to a point where you can actually craft gear that is of any use to you.  It's just such a waste of time and resources and isn't immersive at all.

     

    There are 2 systems from my memory that had good qualities about them.  Back when I was excited for the release of Elder Scrolls Online and was playing beta, I dabbled in their crafting system briefly and it actually seemed like an in depth system that was difficult yet rewarding.  I want crafting to be somewhat difficult.  After all, in real life you don't just pick up a pickaxe, swing 3 times at a mithril node, smack it with a hammer 4 times and voila! A legendary Greatsword of Epic-ness!  Now I'm a real baddass, until this dungeon we're about to do and I just looted off trash a sword 5 times better...so much for that.  Unfortunately, ESO lost me for other reasons than their crafting system so I didn't see much more of it.  

     

    The other system I still find myself thinking about is ArcheAge.  The premise behind the system was great.  It was in depth, required a great deal of effort, leveled you comparatively to adventuring, and the gear was pretty much BiS until end-game raid gear.  It even required you to use the previously crafted item in order to craft the next tier (which is something I know you guys mentioned in the Round Table - about enticing people to do more with their items than just sell them).  The quality of the item was also affected by your skill level.  Sure there was some chance associated with quality, but that chance got higher the more skilled you became.  Crafted gear was incredibly valuable, both for its stats (which included set bonuses if I recall correctly) and the materials required to make it.  Which brings me to the BIGGEST flaw with the ArcheAge crafting system - materials acquisition.  I think they tried to get their farm and housing system out too quickly and it was just a total disaster and lost them quite a few players, including myself.  If you did not have a farm in ArchAge, crafting was going to be a nightmare for you or INCREDIBLY expensive.  There were very, very few world nodes of harvestable materials so you needed to have a farm plot to plant seeds or raise livestock to get herbs, fruit, vegetables, meat, hide, wool, etc.  So, if you were like me and couldn't get a farm,  no matter how many farm destructions you camped in the hopes of by sheer luck clicking at the EXACT millisecond to place yours, you were out of luck.  Even if all around you Bots and/or complete asshats (in your guild I might add) that had 10 farms and were selling them for 8000 gold...So now your only choice is to buy crafting materials, and you know the best way to make coins to buy crafting materials? - ocean trading.  You know how you get the items for ocean trading (providing you also have the crafted boat and a bunch of friends to make it across the ocean)? - crafting.  SOOOO..../unsubscribe.

     

    Perfecting the crafting system is not an easy task.  As much as I hope to see something at launch I don't want to see it go the way of ArcheAge, where they threw all the cards on the table straight away with a system that is great on paper, but does not inherently work or isn't fair.  I don't envy you guys for the work ahead of you, and not just in crafting.  Keep up the great work you're doing!  We all stand behind you and can't wait to join you in Terminus (as long as it isn't Walking Dead Terminus - that would be awkward).

    • 64 posts
    March 3, 2015 9:36 AM PST
    Best part of VG for me was when I saved up enough cash basically from day one to buy a huge boat from a crafter and used it to sail the seas and ferry people around. Again not clicky teleporting but physically sailing to locations. This is how crafting can affect a game. I was a ranger pirate arrr....
    • 50 posts
    March 3, 2015 9:57 AM PST
    Rivacom said:

    I always say SWG had done the Craftin/Sales very well.  Especially because you actually wanted/needed to go find these craft items to build half the stuff in the game.  There was just so much in depth thought into player cities, ships, planets, guild ships etc.

     

    Yeah. I liked the system as for the feel in the reward for doing it, and how you were actually like a trader in that game and really needed to monitor everything in that game, but it was meant for the long haul so it took a bit to get to that point. Though it was really boring to just sit and wait on stuff as you didnt really have a hand in actually making it just the resource acquisition and distribution to the crafting station.

     

    Chaam said:

    Unless something has changed in recent weeks week's the last I heard is there will be no crafting system at launch.  It will be put in at  later date after release as an XPAC or something. Good and bad.  I wont be online when my friends aren't as well as with out there is no economy.

     Just a kill and level game not a sand-box if you will.

     

    As Kilsin said below they just announced it will have one, but more than likely will be basic and built up.

     

    Exmortis said:

    I almost peed myself to see the dev recap include crafting at launch, I will listen to it tonight when I get home.

     

    Docka, great post and well thought out.  Aradune mentioned way back that Pantheon crafting would be more VG like and inspired from VG than EQ.  I suspect that still holds true.

     

    God I can only hope you are right on this and they stick to it. I hadnt heard anything about that.

     

    Wandidar said:

    I generally do crafting in an MMO - because it feels like I need to do a craft... and then once it's mastered, I almost never do the craft.

     Why?  Because in today's MMO's, there generally seems to be no reason to do the crafting yourself.  You gain... nothing - or not enough to merit your time.

     

     

    This is the big thing I hope they accomplish with it, and that is make it feel like im doing something and I'm worth it. I really hope they add into the game a huge focus on the crafters to make the items.

     

    Say I am a crafter and want rare material X well that ore has only been discovered in the old dwarven ruins where the evil goblin army has taken over for the past 20 years. Well I can mix my adventuring in with that and have a need to go collect this rare material that can make some really awesome gear, but the dwarven blacksmith hammer was the only one known to have the strength to shape the metal, but one of the goblin leaders has the smithing hammer. So I would need to go and get the ore and possibly have a hammer drop that could say let me make a grade A, or A+. While down there the party may even be able to find mastered recipes to help expand my knowledge of the metal and how to refine it to make different things.

    in short I would like to see a pretty good co dependence on adventuring and crafting like a 60 40 where it wouldn't be needed to have someone craft or need crafted gear, but if you wanted strong items for you level, or special stats etc it would need to come from a crafter or very rare gear. 

    I feel by doing that it would really make you feel needed and the process worthwhile.

     

    Feyreisa said:

    Definitely on board with you Docka.  It saddens me to say that I didn't get to experience VG, it was just not a game that I was aware of at the time.  I do love the sounds of its crafting system, however.  I love crafting in most MMO's I've played and am quite prepared to invest a lot of my time in to it (usually to the point of irritation for the other members of my party - cough...Nikademis - cough). Lol. 

     

    That said, there are very few crafting systems out there that I feel have ever captivated me enough.  As you said the "one click and done style" just isn't very rewarding.  It is also incredibly frustrating when, as an example, you reach the point where you can smelt iron ingots only to get 2 points out of it before it goes grey, but you still have 250 ingots to smelt.  Not a very balanced, rewarding, or interesting system.  It also gets disheartening when you have to create 17 "Hardened Shoulders of [insert cliche animal/power/effect]" just for the sake of leveling to a point where you can actually craft gear that is of any use to you.  It's just such a waste of time and resources and isn't immersive at all.

     

    There are 2 systems from my memory that had good qualities about them.  Back when I was excited for the release of Elder Scrolls Online and was playing beta, I dabbled in their crafting system briefly and it actually seemed like an in depth system that was difficult yet rewarding.  I want crafting to be somewhat difficult.  After all, in real life you don't just pick up a pickaxe, swing 3 times at a mithril node, smack it with a hammer 4 times and voila! A legendary Greatsword of Epic-ness!  Now I'm a real baddass, until this dungeon we're about to do and I just looted off trash a sword 5 times better...so much for that.  Unfortunately, ESO lost me for other reasons than their crafting system so I didn't see much more of it.  

     

    The other system I still find myself thinking about is ArcheAge.  The premise behind the system was great.  It was in depth, required a great deal of effort, leveled you comparatively to adventuring, and the gear was pretty much BiS until end-game raid gear.  It even required you to use the previously crafted item in order to craft the next tier (which is something I know you guys mentioned in the Round Table - about enticing people to do more with their items than just sell them).  The quality of the item was also affected by your skill level.  Sure there was some chance associated with quality, but that chance got higher the more skilled you became.  Crafted gear was incredibly valuable, both for its stats (which included set bonuses if I recall correctly) and the materials required to make it.  Which brings me to the BIGGEST flaw with the ArcheAge crafting system - materials acquisition.  I think they tried to get their farm and housing system out too quickly and it was just a total disaster and lost them quite a few players, including myself.  If you did not have a farm in ArchAge, crafting was going to be a nightmare for you or INCREDIBLY expensive.  There were very, very few world nodes of harvestable materials so you needed to have a farm plot to plant seeds or raise livestock to get herbs, fruit, vegetables, meat, hide, wool, etc.  So, if you were like me and couldn't get a farm,  no matter how many farm destructions you camped in the hopes of by sheer luck clicking at the EXACT millisecond to place yours, you were out of luck.  Even if all around you Bots and/or complete asshats (in your guild I might add) that had 10 farms and were selling them for 8000 gold...So now your only choice is to buy crafting materials, and you know the best way to make coins to buy crafting materials? - ocean trading.  You know how you get the items for ocean trading (providing you also have the crafted boat and a bunch of friends to make it across the ocean)? - crafting.  SOOOO..../unsubscribe.

     

    Perfecting the crafting system is not an easy task.  As much as I hope to see something at launch I don't want to see it go the way of ArcheAge, where they threw all the cards on the table straight away with a system that is great on paper, but does not inherently work or isn't fair.  I don't envy you guys for the work ahead of you, and not just in crafting.  Keep up the great work you're doing!  We all stand behind you and can't wait to join you in Terminus (as long as it isn't Walking Dead Terminus - that would be awkward).

     

     

    I hate that you didnt get to experience vanguards crafting as it was pretty top notch.

    at about 3:08 in this video he starts into crafting, but the start has some of the crafting as well. side note my favorite thing in Vanguard was killing the treants then chopping them up for wood lol.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg5f-IXSmCs

     

    As for the crafting in ESO. I never got into it to even start to see it as the game just felt off and wrong to me. It just felt like it was made and slapped together with zero enjoyment or love behind it.

    Now I did do a bit in Archeage, but I wasnt a huge fan of the combat classes and how they played as I am a healer mainly, and the healing in that game was just miserable to do, and there was really only 1 healing spec/ class which was kinda meh.

    I also dabbed around in their crafting, and thought i was going to kind of like it until I needed to get these stupid essences from lock boxes and breaking items down with that horrible labor system that you had to use to open looted bags. It really really turned me off to the game and made me not want to play it.

    • 704 posts
    March 3, 2015 10:02 AM PST

    Crafting goes hand in hand with resource gathering. I loved early EQ2 crafting, before it was changed.

    • 13 posts
    March 3, 2015 10:20 AM PST

    Agreed Docka!  I really liked the premise of ArcheAge crafting.  Just the means of getting the materials drove me to quit; whether through being forced to farm without a farm or those dumb essences and boxes you were talking about.

    • 158 posts
    March 3, 2015 12:31 PM PST

     

    Speaking of Vanguard and killing treants then harvesting them, Vanguard had one of the best harvesting systems in any game I played.

     

    Harvesting and crafting are a hand in hand part of a game, can’t craft without harvesting, harvesting has little use of you cannot craft. Vanguard allowed each character to have two harvesting skills, and a third general skill. For those that did not play, you could take any two of these skills mining(metal), quarrying(stone), lumberjack(wood), reaping(cloth), and skinning(leather); as well as everyone had a general harvesting skill. Vanguard had group harvesting, that meant from 1 to 6 people (in VG 6 was largest group size) could group up and work together to harvest. The end result is 6 skilled harvesters would get more “material’ from a single node than 1 person would from 6 nodes, as well as each extra person added a chance for a bonus yield (rare, ultra rare, crafting dusts). If you were not a miner but your group had a miner, you could assist a miner as long as they started the node first, thus anyone with the proper skill level and the harvest tool could assist anyone else, at about half the extra yield to a skilled harvester. This was plain and simply brilliant.

     

    Vanguard nodes were also located in places that made sense, based on its material result. You did not see cotton growing in a cave nor metal or stone node in the open grasslands. Wood was from trees, so in a forest were intermixed tree harvest nodes. Leather was the only resource without a node. To build upon this, many mobs (creatures) were harvestable after death for a time. So golems could be quarried, living plant creatures could be reaped, treants and the like could be chopped up for wood, animals could be skinned for hides, though to this day I do not think there were any mobs that could be mined. The cool part is groups XPing, questing could also take a bit of time and harvest what they killed.

     

    Let’s hope we see something similar in Pantheon.


    This post was edited by Exmortis at March 4, 2015 4:04 AM PST
    • 40 posts
    March 3, 2015 1:29 PM PST

    First, I think we should just be happy that they are going to try to include a crafting system since they said before they weren't going to dedicate the resources to it.  Secondly, I am sure, because they said it would be, that it will be very similar to EQ's crafting system, and if I am to choose between no crafting system or that kind of limited crafting system, I think I'll go with the latter.  They said they want a more in-depth system, so I'm sure you will get that eventually.  We just have to be patient.

    But aside from that disclaimer, I am curious what your theory is on how to balance crafted items with dropped items because I think that is probably the most difficult issue to tackle and a big reason why some recent MMOs have done away with crafting all together.

    • 363 posts
    March 3, 2015 4:40 PM PST
    Saphreal said:

    First, I think we should just be happy that they are going to try to include a crafting system since they said before they weren't going to dedicate the resources to it.  Secondly, I am sure, because they said it would be, that it will be very similar to EQ's crafting system, and if I am to choose between no crafting system or that kind of limited crafting system, I think I'll go with the latter.  They said they want a more in-depth system, so I'm sure you will get that eventually.  We just have to be patient.

    But aside from that disclaimer, I am curious what your theory is on how to balance crafted items with dropped items because I think that is probably the most difficult issue to tackle and a big reason why some recent MMOs have done away with crafting all together.

     

     

     

     

     

    I disagree with you on the part about crafting being more EQ I remember them saying more Vanguard, like EX. 

    Yes harvesting was another fun game in its self in VG too, you could also make a rotation on metal or any node and have a better chance at rare, ultra rare nodes. I would spend entire nights harvesting to get rares or ultra rares, then when I would get 1 to pop call the guild and get a high yield on it. You could also reap, mine, and skin a lot of the end apw raid mobs. Also the mold sets for the red apw gear had to be crafted and was best in game until pota. Even most of the weapons where some of the best crafted in apw. Shoot they had crafting stations in apw along with the necessity of Diplo's too in apw. Each sphere could be its own game in VG. 

    • 746 posts
    March 3, 2015 5:44 PM PST

    Very excited for this, and I'm not generally the most "crafty" guy.  I just think the implications of having a game that claims to support a player driven economy but doesn't have a crafting system makes very little sense, so good choice imo.

     

    I won't add a ton as most of you have touched on what I would say.  But I would just add one other thing I really loved about VG crafting, and that was how it encouraged crafters to become worldly.  Traveling to far off lands and secluded outposts for specific recipes, styles and quests was amazing.  Telon was a huge, amazing, beautiful world and the crafting supported that.  It encouraged you to visit places you had never been and/or to revisit places again.  Brilliant.

     

    This sentiment seems to fit perfectly with Pantheon.  /copy VG crafting code ;)

    • 1008 posts
    March 4, 2015 4:10 AM PST
    Kazingathi said:

    I disagree with you on the part about crafting being more EQ I remember them saying more Vanguard, like EX. 


    During the Roundtable discussion - Brad had said that the base crafting system implemented for Pantheon at launch would be more like EQ.  I would imagine that is not because they would prefer EQ's system to VG's, but that it is more feasible to implement an EQ style system given limited resources.  However, nothing was said regarding the gathering/harvesting system, so I hope the base/launch system can be similar to VG.

    • Moderator
    • 8628 posts
    March 4, 2015 4:16 AM PST

    VG is definitely my favourite crafting system over any other out there, including EQ but as we said, it all comes down to resources. We want to include a deep and meaningful crafting system to compliment a robust and well thought out combat/adventuring system and hopefully with an Investor we can do that but for the time being we are planning ahead and working with what we have available to us.

    I am hoping for a base VG crafting system that can be built upon via updates and expansions and a similar harvesting system to that of VGs. Even if it's basic and simple at launch, we can always expand on that sphere later :)

    • 831 posts
    March 4, 2015 5:19 AM PST

    There is also nothing that says they can't implement "Crafting 1.0" at launch - and then completely revamp it later to "Crafting 2.0"

     

    We all know that they are putting crafting in because the community wants it... this gives us that.  It doesn't mean though that crafting needs to end where it begins in terms of the mechanics involved in crafting, etc...

     

    Kudos to the devs for scratching the crafting itch the community has :) 

     

    • 40 posts
    March 4, 2015 7:41 AM PST
    Kazingathi said:
    Saphreal said:

    First, I think we should just be happy that they are going to try to include a crafting system since they said before they weren't going to dedicate the resources to it.  Secondly, I am sure, because they said it would be, that it will be very similar to EQ's crafting system, and if I am to choose between no crafting system or that kind of limited crafting system, I think I'll go with the latter.  They said they want a more in-depth system, so I'm sure you will get that eventually.  We just have to be patient.

    But aside from that disclaimer, I am curious what your theory is on how to balance crafted items with dropped items because I think that is probably the most difficult issue to tackle and a big reason why some recent MMOs have done away with crafting all together.

     

     

     

     

     

    I disagree with you on the part about crafting being more EQ I remember them saying more Vanguard, like EX. 

    Yes harvesting was another fun game in its self in VG too, you could also make a rotation on metal or any node and have a better chance at rare, ultra rare nodes. I would spend entire nights harvesting to get rares or ultra rares, then when I would get 1 to pop call the guild and get a high yield on it. You could also reap, mine, and skin a lot of the end apw raid mobs. Also the mold sets for the red apw gear had to be crafted and was best in game until pota. Even most of the weapons where some of the best crafted in apw. Shoot they had crafting stations in apw along with the necessity of Diplo's too in apw. Each sphere could be its own game in VG. 

    This is his exact quote, go listen to the roundtable again, "We'll give it a shot.  It will probably expand after launch. It will be fun and solid.  If you think about it, the crafting system in beginning of EQ, was fun but wasn't incredibly detailed.  It could kind of get build up into that."  I'm sure it will eventually be fleshed into something at least as good as Vanguard, but that's not what he said they were planning for at launch.


    This post was edited by Saphreal at March 4, 2015 1:38 PM PST
    • 158 posts
    March 4, 2015 1:35 PM PST

    Brad's statement makes sense, but do not despair yet that it means a stack and click system. His reference to EQs is actually a good one, in the beginning EQ had a basic crafting ideal, simple items no real cool stuff.  It was expanded over time, eventually to then include racial crafting, quest item crafting and beyond.  Pantheon could start with a nice clean light version of VGs crafting, the basic foundation in place but to start with not the ability to create 450,000 different items.  Ideally as long as they start with a solid deep foundation, and over time update it with cooler and better features it will remain the same.

     

    My idea would be to start with a system representing a skilled crafter, similar but not exact to Vanguard's but for launch you can just create mundane items, essentially you have just recipes for items.  The abiltiy to refine is just that, just refine from raw to usable resource.  So you have a list of weapons you can make, and armor, or food items, or potions, or what ever is decided as a crafting sphere.  Since game will have nice simple objects for each weapon/armor/etc anyway, just use them for the mundane start, nothing fancy and requires no extra artwork.  You could even launch with say 1 or 2 crafters and work a schedule to add the rest over time.  So say at launch weaponsmith and Armorsmith, then they will add the leatherworker, then they will add the Carpenter etc.  Now as they work on the system they implement say Rare harvestables and the process to upgrade items.  Next up they implement say ultra-rare harvestables and the upgrade process is updated to include these.  Next up is the ability to add effects to the actual hard creation.  So on and so on.

     

    The idea here is we have a solid foundation, even if our choices are limted at launch, each update would add to this, making it better and better.  Like building a house.   Even start with really static boring crafting stations, in time they can be updated with really nice animated ones, and the characters animations updated to support them.  Again as long as the foundation is really well done, and thought out, the process of moving forward will bear great fruit.

     

    The secret is to really really create a good solid foundation to build upon.  The rest can come in time.

     

    ***NOTE*** this is not a discussion on what specialties to add I'm just using the examples above for explanatory reasons


    This post was edited by Exmortis at March 5, 2015 8:42 AM PST
    • 30 posts
    December 30, 2016 1:07 PM PST

    Hieromonk said:

    Crafting goes hand in hand with resource gathering. I loved early EQ2 crafting, before it was changed.

     

    Such fond memories of EQ2 on game launch day. Sitting the crafting hall in front of the stove. I decided to use the recipe "Salt & Pepper". I already gathered up some pepper from the Island of Refuge so I decided to give it a try. I had no cluse that I needed to have the crafting buff buttons and counter-calamity buttons all setup. I started to craft and suddenly I died from 700hp of heat damage. Everyone in the crafting hall was laughing at me.

    Back in the day of EQ2, crafting was complicated. If you want to craft up a spell scroll, you had to craft the paper, the ink, and the quill. Later on they changed the crafting and got rid of lots of the steps like making the paper, quill and ink. When I came back to the game after a long break, I had a lot of worthless crafting components in the bank including rare ones. 

    • 1848 posts
    December 30, 2016 3:42 PM PST

    Interdependency between different crafters is important. Hopefully subcomponents will help.

    • 35 posts
    January 11, 2017 5:43 AM PST

    Exmortis said:

     

    Speaking of Vanguard and killing treants then harvesting them, Vanguard had one of the best harvesting systems in any game I played.

     

    Harvesting and crafting are a hand in hand part of a game, can’t craft without harvesting, harvesting has little use of you cannot craft. Vanguard allowed each character to have two harvesting skills, and a third general skill. For those that did not play, you could take any two of these skills mining(metal), quarrying(stone), lumberjack(wood), reaping(cloth), and skinning(leather); as well as everyone had a general harvesting skill. Vanguard had group harvesting, that meant from 1 to 6 people (in VG 6 was largest group size) could group up and work together to harvest. The end result is 6 skilled harvesters would get more “material’ from a single node than 1 person would from 6 nodes, as well as each extra person added a chance for a bonus yield (rare, ultra rare, crafting dusts). If you were not a miner but your group had a miner, you could assist a miner as long as they started the node first, thus anyone with the proper skill level and the harvest tool could assist anyone else, at about half the extra yield to a skilled harvester. This was plain and simply brilliant.

     

    Vanguard nodes were also located in places that made sense, based on its material result. You did not see cotton growing in a cave nor metal or stone node in the open grasslands. Wood was from trees, so in a forest were intermixed tree harvest nodes. Leather was the only resource without a node. To build upon this, many mobs (creatures) were harvestable after death for a time. So golems could be quarried, living plant creatures could be reaped, treants and the like could be chopped up for wood, animals could be skinned for hides, though to this day I do not think there were any mobs that could be mined. The cool part is groups XPing, questing could also take a bit of time and harvest what they killed.

     

    Let’s hope we see something similar in Pantheon.

    Spot on pal and OP too, I for one miss this game so much I had 2 accounts for crafting different things even though it was buggie as hell what a game! The different sphers made the game stand out from the crowd and group gathering was a brilliant idea and I hope they include that in this game. Just the name Vanguard still makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck I beta tested the game and watched it grow from bare bones so miss it to this day.


    This post was edited by Asbo at January 11, 2017 5:44 AM PST
    • 6 posts
    January 18, 2017 4:40 AM PST

    personally, id like to see a crafting system thats less based on the recipes and more based on the ingrediants used. a sword mold is great, but imo the difficulty would be more in the materials u use.... and the materials would effect the weapon stats. a sword recipe that took 3 ore to make would allow for all sorts of combinations from the same recipe - tin, iron, etc. if u had to make the handle separately, u could choose what THATS made of and then combining the 2 items would make the final sword. it would allow for alot of options and different ways to tailor a weapon.

    • 16 posts
    February 14, 2017 5:59 PM PST

    I agree on this point. Crafting must not just end when you hit endgame. One of the biggest problem in modern MMOs is stat inflation, and lack of interest in keeping crafted gear keep pace with stat inflation. The devs have stated they do NOT want this game to be a bumrush to "endgame" whereupon you only raid. They want this game to be about the journey, taking a while, and having immersive systems. I am crossing my fingers. =) I've waited so long for a project to pursue this!

    Wandidar said:

    I generally do crafting in an MMO - because it feels like I need to do a craft... and then once it's mastered, I almost never do the craft.


    This post was edited by DeviantFox at February 14, 2017 6:00 PM PST