Forums » Off-Topic and Casual Chatter

EA thinks games are too hard these days.

    • 378 posts
    February 8, 2015 3:13 PM PST
    • 753 posts
    February 8, 2015 4:02 PM PST

    "Our games are actually still too hard to learn," Hilleman said during during an on-stage interview with other developers. "The average player probably spends two hours to learn how to play the most basic game."

    "And asking for two hours of somebody's time--most of our customers, between their normal family lives...to find two contiguous hours to concentrate on learning how to play a video game is a big ask," he added.

     

    Yeah - asking someone for 2 hours is way too much.  People never spend two contiguous hours:

     

    - Reading a book

    - Building a model airplane

    - Putting a puzzle together

    - Working on a scrapbook

    - Working on an old car for fun

    - Drinking

    - Watching TV

    - etc...

     

    DEFINITELY too much to expect someone to spend two contiguous hours on something they purchased in order to enjoy themselves...

     

     


    This post was edited by Wandidar at February 11, 2015 5:46 AM PST
    • 378 posts
    February 8, 2015 4:14 PM PST

    It's a sad day for games in general when one of the biggest company's thinks it's time to water it down even more. 

    • Moderator
    • 9115 posts
    February 8, 2015 4:57 PM PST

    I was shaking my head when I read this, it's this type of instant gratification mentality that is ruining our gaming industry and delivering us all these watered down titles with no depth or challenge!

    EA was regaining some street cred and now this...back in the basket with Ubisoft for you! ;)

    • 724 posts
    February 8, 2015 11:36 PM PST

    This shows clearly that the company (like many others) does not build games with longevity in mind. I actually agree with them, if they expect people to only play their game for a few hours, then a "long" time to learn the game is to be avoided.

    But he can't be talking about MMOs. Even in modern day MMOs people are expected to stay for at least a month or two, right? In fact it would be a design goal to keep people playing for as long as possible, so a longer learning period wouldn't be a problem, but instead expected and wanted.

     

    • 208 posts
    February 9, 2015 6:29 AM PST

    I am of the opinion that some games are much harder to learn than they should be.  For example ever tried to play the latest madden or NFL games?  How about NBA or Baseball games?  I stopped playing those years ago because while they are trying to make the game more life-like with all these cool moves like juke and crossovers and superman catches they designed the games to be really difficult to do those types of moves in the game.  I recently played the latest Madden with a friend and while he plays sports games often I do not.  It used to be that if you made a bad decision in these games then the computer took advantage of it.  Now they are designing games so that if a player wants to they can outsmart the computer by doing a specific button sequence and viola, the computer is no longer that smart.   Because I could not devote the necessary 2 or 3 days to learning how to throw, catch, jump over and catch, intercept, jump routes, how to aim and kick off a football, how to aim and punt a football, how to do an onside kick, how to do a fake punt, how to do a juke move once I have the ball, how to power-through being tackled, how to do a reverse, how to do a flea flicker I decided that I would not spend the money to buy the game as well as spending the time to learn it because it will just make me more and more angry..

     

    • VR Staff
    • 246 posts
    February 9, 2015 9:35 AM PST
    Wandidar said:

    "Our games are actually still too hard to learn," Hilleman said during during an on-stage interview with other developers. "The average player probably spends two hours to learn how to play the most basic game."

    "And asking for two hours of somebody's time--most of our customers, between their normal family lives...to find two contiguous hours to concentrate on learning how to play a video game is a big ask," he added.

     

    Yeah - asking someone for 2 hours is way too much.  People never spend two contiguous hours:

     

    - Reading a book

    - Building a model airplane

    - Putting a puzzle together

    - Working on a scrapbook

    - Working on an old car for fun

    - Drinking

    - Watching TV

    - etc...

     

    DEFINITELY too much to expect someone to spend two contiguous hours on something they purchased in order to enjoy themselves...

     

     

    While I agree with your premise (& not as much EA's), there is a large swath of people who unfortunately do not give two hours to most of what you've listed. Exceptions being drinking & TV. ;)

     

    But my opinion is simply, "If you make it great, they will wait. (Or learn, but that doesn't rhyme)."


    This post was edited by Istuulamae at February 9, 2015 3:43 PM PST
    • 753 posts
    February 9, 2015 9:45 AM PST

    I actually believe that there are a lot of people who have a lot more free time than they think they do - or will admit to even themselves.  I realized this a long time ago about myself.  If I listed the things I do, some people would wonder how I have any time for anything - and yet, I do.

     

    As an example, I coach youth basketball 9 months out of the year.  I coach CYO in the fall, and AAU in the summer.  AAU is essentially travel basketball - and we travel the northeast. 

     

    Just counting the last 3 days - Friday through Sunday, I devoted 27 hours to youth basketball.  I found 2 consecutive hours on Saturday and 2 consecutive hours on Sunday when I got home from basketball. 

     

    I also have a wife and kids, a career, etc...

     

    I mostly think "I don't have the time" really is more honestly "I choose to spend the time I have on other things" - which then gets interpreted / communicated as "I don't have the time"

     

    I'm not saying that is universally true - but I think it's more true than false.

    • 595 posts
    February 9, 2015 10:02 AM PST

    HAHA, read the responses to that article!  It seems to me that EA may be a bit out of touch with its Target Audience based on the overwhelming "FUUUUUU" in the responses.  Maybe they should fire their "Market Analyst" and hire a PR Rep, Lawl.

    • 595 posts
    February 9, 2015 10:06 AM PST
    Wandidar said:

     

    I mostly think "I don't have the time" really is more honestly "I choose to spend the time I have on other things" - which then gets interpreted / communicated as "I don't have the time"

    Wow, this is so well said Wandidar.  I don't have much to add, except I agree COMPLETELY with this and I could not have worded it better myself (and I fancy myself a bit of a wordsmith ;), though some call it "smartass")

     

    • VR Staff
    • 246 posts
    February 9, 2015 10:07 AM PST

    Agree, Wandidar.

     

    Time management is a way of life, or not a part of it at all, generally.

    • 35 posts
    February 9, 2015 10:13 AM PST

    I think the he actually has a point depending the game type you are talking about. If learning the mechanics of a game is to difficult people will be turned away. Several MMO's now you have to reconfigure UI's, load several addons etc to be competitive. Game mechanics should be easily learned, however game content should not be easily learned.

    Knowing how to attack something should be simple, knowing if that thing I attack is going to destroy me or not should be learned not from some red ring around its feet, but from experience. Exploring content, finding your way through a virtual world should be a long and arduous journey where mistakes and lack of knowledge have repercussions. I should not have to take 2 hours though to learn how to walk, talk to NPC's, set up the latest UI, etc..

     

    • 3 posts
    February 9, 2015 9:14 PM PST

    I think this is a very interesting topic, and some folks may be taking it the wrong way. I agree with a lot of your comments as well, Azzudien. If statistically they are finding that people take a few hours to learn how to play a game, wouldn't we (as developers, the target audience for this statistic in the first place, not consumers) want to figure out how we can teach players to play complex games in a shorter period of time with better retention of the skills they learn? I think of this statement as more of a call to action for ingenuity and progression in the game design and development field than a call to dumb down games.

     

    This statistic also had to come from somewhere and EA does do a lot of play-testing for their games. If they are receiving consistent feedback from players that it is difficult to learn to play their games (taking around 2 hours to learn?!), then it is important that that feedback is being addressed in order to win over those consumers who find this frustrating. As Sogotp said, just try to play a Madden game with no experience. Even their tutorials are pretty limited and do little to help the average videogame player (or even a hardcore gamer who is simply new to Football) to learn enough about how to play the game to find it enjoyable in a relatively short period of time.

     

    They make a lot of complex games at EA. It definitely shouldn't be a matter of dumbing down a game to suit people having trouble learning complex games. It should be a matter of designing a complex game to teach a large majority of players quickly how to play it without requiring the game to be dumbed down in any way. Complex games aren't a bad thing. But not being able to efficiently and effectively teach players (potential customers and consumers of our products) how to play a complex game is a bad thing. This is a great sign that EA feels it's important to see some progress in the area and that can only be a good thing for them in the long-run and something other developers should take note of.


    This post was edited by MadMojo at February 10, 2015 11:25 AM PST
    • VR Staff
    • 102 posts
    February 10, 2015 5:24 AM PST
    Zandil said:

    It's a sad day for games in general when one of the biggest company's thinks it's time to water it down even more. 


    You know, I was really thinking about this and it's so true. Think back to the very first game you played. Remember knowing nothing about it or how to play? It didn't matter how many times you failed the first level or how long it took you to beat that boss, but you kept trying until you did. Maybe that's the real problem; instant gratification has led us to be less patient to keep trying.
    • 753 posts
    February 10, 2015 6:01 AM PST
    BlueEyedGator said:
    Zandil said:

    It's a sad day for games in general when one of the biggest company's thinks it's time to water it down even more. 


    You know, I was really thinking about this and it's so true. Think back to the very first game you played. Remember knowing nothing about it or how to play? It didn't matter how many times you failed the first level or how long it took you to beat that boss, but you kept trying until you did. Maybe that's the real problem; instant gratification has led us to be less patient to keep trying.

    When I first started EQ, I logged in and was waiting for the friend who talked me into it to trying it.  He said to wait for him... but I was impatient.

     

    So - there was this guy marked as my trainer in front of me - and I decided to "A"sk him a question (I figured that was likely how you talked to stuff)

     

    And thus, like many, my first death was caused by me trying to talk to my trainer and instead - hitting the "A" key (which at that point was ATTACK) -and getting killed.

     

    EQ taught you nothing about how to play it.

     

    Which brings up a point - well, the whole thread brings up a point...

     

    MMO's are NOT like other games.  There is a beginning to an MMO, but until the MMO shuts down - there is no END.  Learning how to do things in an MMO is (or should be) part of the entertainment value of an MMO.... because you don't "WIN" an MMO.  You GROW in an MMO... and just like real life, growing entails (or should entail) learning, setbacks, successes, failures, excitement, joy, etc...

     

    SO - learning in an MMO should be decidedly different than learning in FIFA soccer or whatever.  Other types of games are often about learning the controls, the moves, etc... required to WIN the game.  MMOs are about learning the virtual world.


    This post was edited by Wandidar at February 10, 2015 4:57 PM PST
    • 308 posts
    February 10, 2015 7:56 AM PST
    Kilsin said:

    I was shaking my head when I read this, it's this type of instant gratification mentality that is ruining our gaming industry and delivering us all these watered down titles with no depth or challenge!

    EA was regaining some street cred and now this...back in the basket with Ubisoft for you! ;)

    i think what he is talking about is things like getting friends to play a game at a party or just come to your house to game. i remember inviting friends who didnt have a nintendo (that is NES for you youngsters) over to play games. we would play battletoads, paperboy, contra, Double Dragon, and many others. it took like ten seconds to teach the controller map. and then we would play for many hours sometimes the better part of a day. try doing that now! invite the coworker who played a nintendo or some Asteroids back in the day, or even the FPS guy over to play some madden. see if you dont spend 2 hours just teaching the controller map. there are no pick it up and go games anymore. this is what he is talking about, teaching someone the tactics of a game is part of playing the game... he is talking about the time spent in Rocket Surgery University to learn the control map for a game or franchise you dont play.

     

    and i wholeheartedly agree!

    • 432 posts
    February 10, 2015 8:39 AM PST

    This statement is so muddy as to being totally useless for design purposes.

    Take the Go game.

    I taught the rules to my 8 year old son in 1 hour. It can even take less.

    But then when we started playing I had to explain to him that he'd need many months and more to learn how to use those rules to play.

    Then, when he started to know how to play, I explained him that he'd need years to learn how to play well.

     

    In every game whose complexity goes beyond the War card game there are many levels of "Learning".

    The duration of the first stage which is the Learning of the rules is irrelevant because in more complex games (what MMOs definitely are) this stage is anyway largely negligible compared to the farther Learning which is anyway necessary.

     

    So either he meant by his statement the whole Learning process and then he better designs nothing more complex than Black Jack on line.

    Or he only meant the first, rule Learning, stage and then it is irrelevant to the Learning process because it is only 10% or less of the time that has to be dedicated to "Learning".

     

    Now from the sociological (or marketing) point of view it may be true that a large proportion the Young generation has a much smaller attention span than the Young generation from 30 years ago. It may even be true that this is a heavy trend linked to the proliferation of cell phones.

    But imho the operative word here is "large proportion". This doesn't mean everybody. And there are still Young people playing chess or Go in 2015.

    So operationally it just means that if you design a complex game which involves a lot of Learning at different stages, you better have a clear idea about the target population you are aiming for.

     

    [Censored a lengthy consideration about correlations between IQ distributions in a population and the richness and complexity of the stimuli it is exposed to :) ]

    • 378 posts
    February 10, 2015 11:25 AM PST

    Well more complex / difficult gaming is a niche market these days, as we seem to be part of this market as evidence that were here.  Take my new game Elite: Dangerous it has a learning cure higher then EvE and I have been playing for almost 2 months now and I am still learning the game day by day, yet I love it. I think his right in that the average gamer doesn't want to learn for 2 hours, but I don't think it's from a lack of time more from the five year old mentality of I want it and I want it now mentality.  

    • Moderator
    • 9115 posts
    February 10, 2015 5:21 PM PST
    Gawd said:
    Kilsin said:

    I was shaking my head when I read this, it's this type of instant gratification mentality that is ruining our gaming industry and delivering us all these watered down titles with no depth or challenge!

    EA was regaining some street cred and now this...back in the basket with Ubisoft for you! ;)

    i think what he is talking about is things like getting friends to play a game at a party or just come to your house to game. i remember inviting friends who didnt have a nintendo (that is NES for you youngsters) over to play games. we would play battletoads, paperboy, contra, Double Dragon, and many others. it took like ten seconds to teach the controller map. and then we would play for many hours sometimes the better part of a day. try doing that now! invite the coworker who played a nintendo or some Asteroids back in the day, or even the FPS guy over to play some madden. see if you dont spend 2 hours just teaching the controller map. there are no pick it up and go games anymore. this is what he is talking about, teaching someone the tactics of a game is part of playing the game... he is talking about the time spent in Rocket Surgery University to learn the control map for a game or franchise you dont play.

     

    and i wholeheartedly agree!

    Yeah I get what he is talking about but I don't think it applies and I seriously think he is misunderstanding his target audience, anyone who has ever played an EA game will be able to pick up and play one of their other games, with no issues at all. Most of the controller function are the same in every game you play with slight variations depending on the type of game.

    If he is talking about teaching younger children then he needs to check the minimum age for their titles and make easier kids games.

     

    EA are notorious for misreading their audience. They didn't win "The Worst Company in American History" for years in a row for no reason....http://consumerist.com/2013/04/09/ea-makes-worst-company-in-america-history-wins-title-for-second-year-in-a-row/