I'll post my feedback about the game based on the P+ stream since I'm not in alpha. Some of these things I noticed in the Cohh stream, but were more noticeable with the group focused content here.
Things I really liked:
- Buff/debuff icons on enemies and party members. The icons on the party were all easy to see. I'd like timers on them, but that's nitpicking since this is still alpha. The size of the icons on the enemy target is excellent as well. I'm sure this'll be customizable. As a typical healer and hopeful shaman, I'm a huge fan of seeing this.
- Cast bars everywhere!! Enemy cast bars for interrupting and knowing what's coming. Friendly cast bars with spell names (especially helpful if two healers in a group). Super excited this is standard.
- Goblin Cave lighting. I like that it's dark enough not to be able to see deep inside in some parts, yet the party area is very well lit. I'm sure it's from the lanterns and that they can be removed, but the range of the light looks good.
- Resource management. They didn't have to stop after every mob but you definitely saw Desryn's shaman basically empty after some tricky fights. Can't imagine the madness if Therek's enchanter wasn't feeding mana.
- CC visuals. Should be obvious but it's so clutch for coordinating in pugs when people aren't on voice and things go wrong.
- The synergy between skills. Reading Draq's mage skills and seeing how they build on themselves shows how key it'll be for picking 8 for your LAS. I'm already dreading the decision making which is a great problem!
Things I didn't like:
- Mob trains. I like the idea of trains on oneself and your group. This adds a ton of fun, danger, and excitement for the decisions you make. However, I feel they add zero positive to the gameplay when you can train other groups. It's griefing at best and can really be abused. Maybe it's because I never played the MMO's that had trains so I don't have nostalgia glasses for them. I feel once the mobs leash, they should ignore anyone not on their aggro list. In order to avoid using this for pulling certain mobs in dense areas, have everyone in the party automatically get on the threat list even if it's 0 or 1. The possibly be invulnerable when running back after resetting?
- Not being able to see other party member's unique resource. This may be addressed once UI is revamped, but I think it would help group tactics without needing macro/voice annoucements. Especially if some of those big skills will synergize well with each other like I expect.
This was a great stream. On behalf of those not in pre-alpha, thank you VR and P+ for the opporunity to get these sneak peaks into the game!!
Feastycentral said:Things I didn't like:
- Mob trains. I like the idea of trains on oneself and your group. This adds a ton of fun, danger, and excitement for the decisions you make. However, I feel they add zero positive to the gameplay when you can train other groups. It's griefing at best and can really be abused. Maybe it's because I never played the MMO's that had trains so I don't have nostalgia glasses for them. I feel once the mobs leash, they should ignore anyone not on their aggro list. In order to avoid using this for pulling certain mobs in dense areas, have everyone in the party automatically get on the threat list even if it's 0 or 1. The possibly be invulnerable when running back after resetting?
- Not being able to see other party member's unique resource. This may be addressed once UI is revamped, but I think it would help group tactics without needing macro/voice annoucements. Especially if some of those big skills will synergize well with each other like I expect.
I hope the tactics are more keeping an eye out for animations or spell effects. You see a mob knocked to the ground you kick them while they are down type of thing.
As for mob trains, the positive is literally the danger aspect. It's dynamic content until it is abused. When you see a deadly giant walking back to its normal location after chasing down or giving up on a target its amusing and possibly terrifying if it is walking in your direction. Learning the nomans land of dungeon layouts is important, the places to never rest. Intentionally not training when its busy is also a thing, die with honor!
Instances of blatant griefing having no real punishment never ends well though. I can only hope they have clear enforcement that ruins accounts.
Jobeson said:I hope the tactics are more keeping an eye out for animations or spell effects. You see a mob knocked to the ground you kick them while they are down type of thing.
I agree here. With the unique resources in particular I'm more envisioning something like this. I'm a class that when my unique resource is full, I unleash an attack that debuffs fire. There's a mage in my group that has a strong unique resource fire attack. If my resource is full, but I can see theirs is still at 10%, I'll unleash mine and hoep the next one aligns. If instead I see they're at 90% unique resource, I can wait and mention in group "hey mage, get ready for fire attack in a few seconds" Then they can look for the visual cue as well.
Jobeson said:As for mob trains, the positive is literally the danger aspect. It's dynamic content until it is abused. When you see a deadly giant walking back to its normal location after chasing down or giving up on a target its amusing and possibly terrifying if it is walking in your direction. Learning the nomans land of dungeon layouts is important, the places to never rest. Intentionally not training when its busy is also a thing, die with honor!
Instances of blatant griefing having no real punishment never ends well though. I can only hope they have clear enforcement that ruins accounts.
I guess I'm simply not a fan. Not having trains kill others doesn't negate anything you said aside from dying with honor. You'll still need to know the layouts, avoid the wandering giants, etc. If anything, trying to get away or have yourself die in a not super inconvenient spot at the very least sounds like part of the fun. I don't want to inadvertently kill a party doing everything correctly because I didn't see them around the corner I came screaming down. Or be the party that gets wiped 2 hours deep into a dungeon while cautiously progressing due to the mistake of another group.
As for the actual griefing, maybe VR will be excellent about this. I just see it being hard to prove in some situations. Someone can want your camp and try to train you. Your group notices and successfully flees 3x. The fourth time you get caught. No chat if they didn't say anything. No combat log since you didn't get hit prior. And they can claim it was an accident. This might be an extremely niche example, but if Pantheon is as successful and populated as we hope, I feel like encountering this behavior will be inevitable.
Draq was killing me by not moving his own player frame (with his pizza pie resources, health, and mana) and that of the other two targets toward the center of the screen! I assume that is a thing.
I did not notice, but was Des able to mouse over the party frames for heals? I hope those are moveable as well.
I am never going to support the old-school sit-and-med scheme, but I can live with it while holding my nose. Most of the resource juggling/sharing should be managed amongst the group members and those that do so with skill and timing will exhibit a noticeable improvement in low-ebb/max-flow of gameplay.
I quite like the pocket watch and chain visual.
I also would like to see the group's resources and whether or not their interrupt is on cd...
The 'keeper of beans' will tell you that mob training is in the game at his behest...
I entirely agree that training is a very bad idea. Unless one is discussing gaining new abilities when one gains a level.
Danger and suspense can be provided by wandering enemies with a reasonable level of randomness. Allowing other players to use mobs to attack you on a pve server is simply wrong. As noted above - even if VR wanted to waste customer service and GM resources on policing this it cannot really be done fairly and effectively. This is not 1999 - MMOs are not a small niche with most players feeling at least some sense of comraderie for each other. There were trolls and griefers back then too, of course, but it is far more common with MMOs being more mainstream.
I want the world to feel real. If a mob has a reason to attack me, it should. If it has no reason to attack me, it shouldn't. If a player runs past me with mobs chasing him, as those mobs walk back to wherever they are going, if they see me they should decide if I'm worth their time or not. There could be reasons they choose to attack me, there could be reasons they decide not to. I'm hoping the VR team comes up with some very reasonable ways to deal with this that doesn't make the world feel fake.
Much like Ranarius I want the world to feel real. A popular saying from Brad was "I want to build Worlds not Games" and I welcome that, it means unsuspected peril, and to me that means trains, and returning mob agro. I don't want to know the mob passes along here, so if I just sit 10 Feet off to the side I'll be safe, so I can be sloppy and not pay attention. I want to need to be aware of changing circumstance, like somebody is running for there life with a giant hot on their heals, and that giant will be coming back.
I WANT the possibility of a train, yes with it there is the possibility of griefInc, but without it there is no possibility of miraculous saves from seemingly impossible situations.
these are things I'm counting on from Pantheo, the first time a same level Orc walks calmly past me back to his spawn point, ignoring me when I haven't taken any precautions (invis, hide) will likely be the last time I play Pantheon. Not that I'm trying to sound like a baby that's going to take his ball and go home, it's just coming from EQ to WoW so many years ago this was the first sign I had that something wasn't right, early level, just outside of Stormwind and some Trolls I think it was, just walked right over me heading back to their spawn point. in hindsight, I knew right then something was missing.
"Worlds, not Games" for me
Ranarius said:I want the world to feel real. If a mob has a reason to attack me, it should. If it has no reason to attack me, it shouldn't. If a player runs past me with mobs chasing him, as those mobs walk back to wherever they are going, if they see me they should decide if I'm worth their time or not. There could be reasons they choose to attack me, there could be reasons they decide not to. I'm hoping the VR team comes up with some very reasonable ways to deal with this that doesn't make the world feel fake.
I'd say that instead of walking, those NPCs should run. Pulling NPCs away, far enough, that the time it takes them to walk back can be exploited. Their return time should be very quick, with them deciding along the way if they should attack someone in their path.
Vandraad said:I'd say that instead of walking, those NPCs should run. Pulling NPCs away, far enough, that the time it takes them to walk back can be exploited. Their return time should be very quick, with them deciding along the way if they should attack someone in their path.
When those mobs are serving a purpose beyond just being a part of the landscape for players to interact with, like guards outside a Boss's room or scary critters blocking the mouth of a cave, then I agree. Luring them away in order to get a group past them should take skill & timing.
When they are just wildlife in the countryside, I find it quite un-natural & immersion breaking when they charge full speed after me until a certain magical point where they stop dead, turn around and run just as fast back to where they came from. Real animals just don't act that way when they take off after someone, in the various RL experiences I've had. Not a dog in a city, a goose in a barnyard, a bull in a pasture, or a badger in the woods. Those situations are generally about protecting territory and the critter will tend to chase, slow down, stop, watch you for a bit, then head back home. And often explore a bit on the way back. That kind of behavior feels much more real to me
Since different mobs should IMO act differently on a chase, I also think they should have different responses to 'innocent bystanders' when going home. The guards getting back to their posts guarding the Boss should be in a hurry and have little interest in those they pass unless provoked. While the bird who chased you away from its nest should take more interest in any nearby player it notices on the way back. And a bear - who might see people as food - should be VERY interested in every player.
Jothany said:When those mobs are serving a purpose beyond just being a part of the landscape for players to interact with, like guards outside a Boss's room or scary critters blocking the mouth of a cave, then I agree. Luring them away in order to get a group past them should take skill & timing.
When they are just wildlife in the countryside, I find it quite un-natural & immersion breaking when they charge full speed after me until a certain magical point where they stop dead, turn around and run just as fast back to where they came from. Real animals just don't act that way when they take off after someone, in the various RL experiences I've had. Not a dog in a city, a goose in a barnyard, a bull in a pasture, or a badger in the woods. Those situations are generally about protecting territory and the critter will tend to chase, slow down, stop, watch you for a bit, then head back home. And often explore a bit on the way back. That kind of behavior feels much more real to me
Since different mobs should IMO act differently on a chase, I also think they should have different responses to 'innocent bystanders' when going home. The guards getting back to their posts guarding the Boss should be in a hurry and have little interest in those they pass unless provoked. While the bird who chased you away from its nest should take more interest in any nearby player it notices on the way back. And a bear - who might see people as food - should be VERY interested in every player.
I actually love this idea. Have guards run back and ignore everything. Yet a spider in a web filled territory will chase you to the edge of the webbed forest area, unless you did damage to it where it will then chase you a bit further. It will then hurry back to the safety of it's territory, and then become aggressive on it's way to it's spawn area while in the territory.
I'm still not for mob trains killing others, but now at least I understand why others may like them with the responses on this thread.
I agree wholeheartedly with the O.P.
Those arguing that trains are a part of immersion and add to the "realism" of a "video game" need to take a step back and ask themselves why any NPC that "YOU" can see, somehow magically can't see you simply because you're standing 30' away, but as soon as you step 1 foot closer the closest NPC and 20 others from behind the door that you couldn't see suddenly bum rush you... for no reason other than the fact that you look like someone that has a friendly reputation with someone else that they may or may not like...
At the end of the day, it's a video game, and trains will be exploited if not curtailed by developers (period). There is nothing "positive" or "immersive" about being griefed from a nearly uncontrollable game mechanic... if anything, it is incredibly immersion breaking to have to constantly worry about other actual "people" (regardless of the gameworld character) abusing "game mechanics" instead of "your character's" interaction with other "characters" within the "gameworld" and your "gameplay" with them. The very second someone intentionally trains you - I guarantee you are no longer interested in anything to do with the gameworld... at all. Beautiful graphics, awesome combos with your friends, surviving near death experiences - or not surviving (brought on by your own accord) - all you are thinking about is that player that intentionally tried to ruin your game experience... and as soon as you think that, they succeeded. i.e. Griefing
If you want realism, a person "feigning death" isn't going to stop someone from mutilating your body if they're already mid swing... nor would they casually walk back to where they were standing before killing your friend while you were standing just 20' away... only to be "taunted" by the biggest guy in your group and decide to not call for their friends that are just around the corner... GTFO of here with "realism" in regard to threat in an MMO lol. "I'm gonna keep beating on this guy in full plate armor, while that guy 2' away in a t-shirt that I could probably kill in a single hit, continues to heal him..."
Add: Not to discount other's opinions; I just think if we take a step back to look at the larger picture, trains are an issue of NPC threat, and there is nothing "realistic" about threat in an MMO, and when people utilize game mechanics in a way they are not intended for (that affects others), that is a distraction from the gameplay, and distraction is the opposite of immersion.
Feastycentral said:Things I didn't like:
- Mob trains. I like the idea of trains on oneself and your group. This adds a ton of fun, danger, and excitement for the decisions you make. However, I feel they add zero positive to the gameplay when you can train other groups. It's griefing at best and can really be abused. Maybe it's because I never played the MMO's that had trains so I don't have nostalgia glasses for them. I feel once the mobs leash, they should ignore anyone not on their aggro list. In order to avoid using this for pulling certain mobs in dense areas, have everyone in the party automatically get on the threat list even if it's 0 or 1. The possibly be invulnerable when running back after resetting?
When asked if the Amish considered himself a "good" man, he modestly replied to such an arrogant question with: "you would have to ask my neighbor"
From a social and playerability aspect, Mob trains are subjective. If a group overpulls and trains themselves and another group are near, it is how the training group handles itself that provides subjective character assesment to those watching, even the group that is near. If they stand and die to the last member, causing the monsters to have no others on aggro list and path back- they have "character" and can be respected. If the monsters, by virtue of their ways have a proximity aggro trigger then the dead group still has character and the near group chose to be too close unless the near group is new to that area then the near group has a right to complain- once. If a train is pulled and the group manages and defeats the train- thats playerability and should be admired. If the group pulls the train and runs away, leaving the near group to die, the group are newbs and deserve side-eye. If the newbs train the zone and the near group stops the train, the near group has admirable playerability. Magic happens when everyone says everyone is going there, some know of the proximity thing and many do not but shouts inside keep saying and some that didnt know, then also shout to new people coming in that it is so- from excitement. Because so many people are there at the right levels that can barely keep on top of the spawns but enough to squelch any trains. And people can swap and mix and match groups from shouts and as you're running to your new group you panic because something hit you and is following you because your invis dropped! and they already have one where they are but they say- it's ok! Bring it!
@Manouk, What you are describing is a bad pull, not a train. A train is when someone logs in their high level monk, runs around a low level dungeon agroing everything, and then runs all of the NPCs back to a group of players they want to grief (or just kill so that they can take the camp) and then feigns death when the 40 NPCs are in range of the group.
Brutenga said:I'm always a fan of some chaos! (not to be confused with griefing)
THIS ^ is the mentality of many people that play modern MMOs that I (and many others) are trying to avoid. Some people think its just a little harmless "fun" to have chaos because they are relatively unempathetic. That is not an insult, but just a factual observation.
Controlling the infliction of discomfort upon oneself would be fine, but is by definition not chaotic because you are aware of the disorder and confusion about to transpire. The moment you are intentionally involving others in a chaotic situation (for your amusement) is the definition of griefing.
This is a very common mentality. I get it, but I will only play a game that allows this kind of griefing on a PvP server because there is NO effective way for community policing of griefers when the core game mechanics embolden the action.
Yeah, I agree with Darch. the world will plenty challenging enough without that. I have a feeling the game will be a lot more challenging as we gain levels and the NPCS start being more complex with their dispositions, traits and level encounters. It needs to be said that many of us haven't played a game wth the type of encounters that Pantheon will have and, although the pro players will always pro play, most of us will be challenged moreso than other MMOS we played...very hopefully.
I know trains are already a thing though, so I am prepared to exprience it for the time being. I've played lots of MMOS, not EQ though, and never had to deal with trains from other players unles I tried to help them. I will see how the community is first, before making any hard stance on the matter though, so I will not make it an issue to be bothered by.
"I know trains are already a thing though"
Ah - but this is one of the attractions of these forums. At the current pre-alpha stage almost nothing is "a thing" in the sense of being locked in and invariable. Almost anything that isn't a truly major game feature is subject to change if VR decides that the change is a good one and, hopefully, will either speed up development or at least not slow it down noticeably.
If enough of us suggest that a feature is worth reconsidering they may well take another look at it. Obviously, since they had reasons for putting it in, they are more likely than not to reconfirm that those reasons were valid but more than a few things are very likely to be changed between pre-alpha and alpha. That is one of the *points* of having a pre-alpha. Simply saying "I don't like it" about a feature is unlikely to accomplish much unless the dislike is so widely shared that VR decides that it represents a widely held opinion not just a few loud-mouthed forum addicts. But giving cogent reasons why a different approach would work better can, rarely, persuade them that the original tentative decision might have not sufficiently considered some negatives to the approach taken. I say rarely not because it is rare for them to consider any contrary opinions but because normally they will have already considered the factors being mentioned.
I myself would not grief people as I do not delight in it, all i meant was that sometimes unforseen complications can be fun. Sure being trained over and over again is clearly not fun. I can't say I remember experiencing much of that while playing EQ. It is a different world we live in which was brought up already, but trains or not, griefers will find a way to have their "fun" at the expense of others. I personally don't care if "being trained" is in the game or not, I just like things that help deviate from a wash, rinse, repeat formula that so many MMO's do today.
Hello,
I have a problem with the "no train" version because that can/will be exploited very quickly.
Imagine that there are a ton of guards between your group and a boss. Degroup one guy that aggros the hell out of the way and then runs for his life, leaving the path empty for the group to pass by. The guys FDs, is regrouped and summoned and the group just avoided a lot of pain killing stuff. And what does it mean, not aggroing you on the way back ? Does it mean that the mobs you are killing in room X and that get co-aggroed by the trainers will simply come back without noticing you ?
And if I was a gob chasing some guy and on the way back I saw a group killing my friends. Why wouldn't I go and help ?
Grobobos said:And lastly, the guy that intentionnaly griefs people will get a reputation for doing that. In a group centric game, having a bad rep can and will have a negative effect on your playability.
I never quite got this counter point. I don't have as much MMO experience as some of you, but I've never seen someone quit because they had a bad rep. I've seen my fair share of griefers and ninja looters getting called out in games, but week after week you still see them getting called out and others stating "yeah, never group with them" or "I told you". The nature of MMO's is such that there is always a new influx of players that don't know every bit of community gossip.
Even barring that a whole community may not know the rep of every griefer and ninja looter, some people just don't care. The person doing the negative deed knows the repercussions and might revel in the bad rep just like chat trolls do. Their friends will still play with them. Their guild will still play with them. And many others, who might agree or feel ambivalent about their griefing because they say it's a part of the game, will also still play with them.
Unless there are real repercussions from the game devs, the community's response will be an inconvenience at best and a potentially a point of pride for the person. That's a lot of game development money going into customer service to investigate allegations, complaints, etc for a mechanic that does what? Add a little to the immersion after ascertaining it wasn't maliciously done?
I don't think anyone here will not play Pantheon because trains don't exist. It's bringing to the table so much more on the immersion and fun scale where this is a minor blip on the feature radar. On the flip side, a fairly casual player who gets trained 3-4x in a play session, even if accidentally, when the game is already more challenging than other MMO's, has death penalties, has a slower travel time, has a monthly cost... will they be spending their more limited time continuing to play?