In terms of class balance and design are/should the classes who have skills to pull smoothly be balanced more as CC classes?
A good puller is a perfect alternative to CC in most games and presumably Pantheon. The rogue saps or monk FD pull or ranger lulls/calm spells or whatever other classes can do are all sort of a form of CC by splitting the encounters.
Some of this is automatically balanced if the puller is not staying to DPS mobs but is intead running off to chain pull more mobs. The main difference is they can always stay and usually do normal DPS when they do. Should that be the case?
Many MMOs have dumbed down the games and done away with pulling all together as a concept, but in games where it is valued pulling is often more important than the CC role when it comes to group performance.
Keep in mind Pantheon calls for a quaternary design system with CC as a defined role in groups.
Jobeson said: ... Keep in mind Pantheon calls for a quaternary design system with CC as a defined role in groups.
The only Group Roles enumerated for Classes on the web site are Tank, Healer, Damage and Support.
The CC role was removed years ago from the class descriptions, so I'm not sure it's still a public design goal to have a quaternity or quaternary, or whatever other word you want to use for The RPG Holy Trinity + 1 that explicitly includes CC. I guess you could presume or assume that CC includes Support or Support includes CC, but that's not part of the FAQ today. The CC role was specifically removed from past class descriptions.
At least from the current public information on the web site as of Feb 2023, that's the case.
It's also worth noting that currently the only class of the twelive shown on the web site that has the Group Role of Support is Enchanter. Numerically, 1/12 is not 3/12, so an argument could be made that if CC and Support are interchangable, it seems like the emphasis on CC has waned over time. I'm aware other classes may or may not be implemented, but that's what's there today.
Jobeson said:Keep in mind Pantheon calls for a quaternary design system with CC as a defined role in groups.
As noted above - the role is Support, not CC. Crowd control is a part of Support but only one aspect of the role, it is/can be very important depending on location etc but it is not all or necessarily the majority of what the role does.
I think CC/Support are all in the same sphere as a "support" role, for example in eq1 the monk/sk split pulling (FD pull) this was an amazing benefit to raids and dungeon crawls, as some mobs were unmezzable. or you simply didnt have a chanter. I know a while back in a video it was in a mage tower stream (sorry its been a while since ive seen it forgot the name) they actually did some FD splitting with a monk, So unless they changed the mechanic it will be available in this game. ive always enjoyed little things like that, because im sure when eq1 launched FD wasnt intended for that purpose, but because of it they started a whole new skill and character role that was very important and will be forever.
Some of this is automatically balanced if the puller is not staying to DPS mobs but is intead running off to chain pull more mobs. The main difference is they can always stay and usually do normal DPS when they do. Should that be the case?
This sounds like you are talking about something similar to the hybrid tax. I think they should be able to do full DPS. If a monk doesn't want to pull he shouldn't be penalized with lower dps. The act of doing support will naturally lower their dps, so an extra dps modifier seems punative. Instead, maybe have an incentive to perform the support. A harder punch for an interupt. A buff if you do a successful split(maybe not dps, but possibly speed so you can get back to the group quicker and help dps the mob that is there or get to a better place for another FD). That way you will have a baseline and won't be "useless" if you are a second monk, but will be encouraged to perform your class to its full potential if possible. I prefer the carrot instead of the stick.
Nexira said: If a monk doesn't want to pull he shouldn't be penalized with lower dps. The act of doing support will naturally lower their dps, so an extra dps modifier seems punative. Instead, maybe have an incentive to perform the support.
This is one of the beauties of the limited action set. You get to make a choice ahead of time if you're going to be using your pulling abilities or your dps abilities.
Jobeson said: In terms of class balance and design are/should the classes who have skills to pull smoothly be balanced more as CC classes?The rogue saps or monk FD pull or ranger lulls/calm spells or whatever other classes can do are all sort of a form of CC by splitting the encounters.
First, what I am responding to here are the classes that can 'split'. Because in Panth most - if not all - classes have some offensive ability that works at a distance and could thus be used to pull. And every class can face-pull. It's also obvious that all tanks are heavy CC classes :)
VR intends to spread a bit of support/CC ability around to most if not all of the non-Support classes. They have commented in the past that the support Role will have significantly more of that functionality than any of the other classes, just as a Monk has a bit of tanking ability but isn't expected to be able to main tank any challenging content.
I'm sure the total power & functionality of each class, including its out-of-role abilities, is being taken into account for class balance.
A good puller is a perfect alternative to CC in most games and presumably Pantheon.
I think this is a premature assumption. While it is true that low level content and even some higher level, open world content will be viable combat for less than full groups with all 4 roles, I think the plan is that seriously challenging content - like dungeons - will specifically include the need for dedicated CC. Not simply to pull effectively, but particularly to deal with unexpectedly quick respawns, wandering adds and bosses who call for reinforcements. Spitting skill doesn't seem to me very useful once a group has engaged a mob and suddenly finds several adds coming out of the bushes.
I may be missing part of your point though, because I'm not sure what you mean by "be balanced more as CC classes?" What do you imagine that looks like?
Jobeson said:In terms of class balance and design are/should the classes who have skills to pull smoothly be balanced more as CC classes?
I see FD pulling as a unique skill that isn't quite the same as CC. To me CC is when your group has agro on the mobs and you have to fight them. The FD pull is a highly valuable skill and can help mitigate the need for CC, but I see it as a skill applied in a different situation then CC.
I'm sure the utility classes will be balanced on the different 'extra' abilities they bring to the group. The exact value of those skills will depend on the other classes in the group and where they are fighting. In some scenarios FD pulling may be critical, but for other situations, CC may be more important. So, I think it's difficult to equate abilities that use different mechanics in game, even if they can sometimes result in similar outcomes.
One other thing to consider is that the enchanter and monk can really compliment each other. Besides mezing parked mobs, the enchanter makes the monk's job easier. Instead of splitting a group of 5 into a single pull, they can just split it into a group of 2 or 3 and bring those back and let the enchanter mez them. That should lead to faster pulling since it doesn't take as long to split the mobs.
Arbeor said:I see FD pulling as a unique skill that isn't quite the same as CC. To me CC is when your group has agro on the mobs and you have to fight them. The FD pull is a highly valuable skill and can help mitigate the need for CC, but I see it as a skill applied in a different situation then CC.
I don't know about that. Feign Death still deals with a crowd, only pro-actively...before the encounter. 'Crowd Control' is re-active..during the encounter. 'Traditional' crowd control, that of mez, is arguably more powerful because it can actively deal with a greater number of simultaneous targets where as Feign Death is there to forgo the need to actively deal with simultaneous targets. Personally, I'll take traditional crowd control over feign death any day. Feign Death requires too many tertiary mechanics to function propoerly, like pathing, of NPCs deciding when they should walk back to their spawn point, etc. It's always janky, always clunky whereas Mez is very straight forward.
You and I are saying the same thing, it's just semantics. What you called reactive, I referenced as the group having agro. I agree, it is reactive, reactive to the fact that the group has agro and you can't drop it very easily so you have to deal with the mobs. The proactive is the group not having agro and the monk FDing and dropping agro before the group gets it. My point was that the abilities have different mechanics that apply differently depending on the situation, so they aren't really equivalent, even if we agree to call both of them CC.
Both mesmerize and FD have pro's and con's, I don't think one is always better. I agree that mesmerize is more straight forward. But as an example, if you have to break a spawn of 7 mobs that can kill casters in 2 or 3 hits, I'd rather have an monk FD pulling it, than rely on an enchanter to mez them all. Sure, it can be done, but even with a great group, there is a much higher level risk of a wipe. While FD can take time due to pathing and other scenarios, sometimes it's a less risky choice them mesmerizing everything. It all depends on the circumstances.
I really hope we will have a variety of different methods for pulling and that pulling won't be limited to only a couple classes. I want to see a variety of ways to pull, each with their own advantages and disadvantages, so that who pulls and how you pull is a tactical decision.
I hope there will be some interesting, class-specific options. I expect Rogues to be excellent at pulling sentient humanoid mobs, Rangers / Druids to excel at pulling natural / animal mobs, Clerics / Paladins to pull undead, Summoners to be best with demons, Shaman best with spirits, etc. This approach ensures most will will get their chance to pull and will keep the tactics used varied, keeping gameplay fresh. These class advantages shouldn't be so great that the specific class is required, but rather it should open up interesting different options.
Ideas for pulling methods:
Summoner: summons decoy at targeted location, then decoy moves to second location, luring mobs that see it without aggroing them.
Shaman: target mob is teleported to Shaman and a temporary,look-alike spirit illusion appears in its place, making it look to nearby mob allies like nothing happened (unless they are perceptive or too close).
Ranger: tosses food on a stick tied to a rope, attracting an animal mob, then pulls it back toward the group. The Ranger would need to learn which food bait to use with which animals and how close to throw it without attracting additional animals.
A lot of great ideas in this thread. I also think it points to why MMO devs these days design dungeons with spatterings of densly packed mobs the tank pulls or charges into while group bursts down, all while the healer maintains full mana until a boss is reached. It's difficult and time consuming to design! The intricate group pull design is like creating a puzzle or series of puzzles it seems. This is what gets me so excited for this game because this playstyle won't only be desgined for dungeons, but the entire world. I just cant get into any MMOs because a large portion of gameplay is passive and inconsequential until you reach a boss encounter.
I am very much looking forward to a little class flexing and interesting pull mechanics as it adds more dynamic to overall gameplay. Of course without watering down class identity as was pointedout. I have absolutle 110% faith this dev team is going to execute the mechanics to great effect. I love extra utility in classes, it keeps from class abilities and game design from being a rinse, wash, repeat rotation. I just don't find it fun or engaging when the core gameplay boils down to how good am I at successive keystrokes until the mob is dead.