Forums » Crafting

End game crafting content

    • 107 posts
    March 5, 2015 5:05 PM PST

    I love the idea of going to the heart of Mordor to craft something in the fires of Mount Doom.  Crafters and adventurers would have to work together to accomplish the task.

     

    Edit: typo


    This post was edited by CelevinMoongleam at March 5, 2015 5:06 PM PST
    • 2 posts
    March 5, 2015 5:12 PM PST

    I feel that the best end game crafting I have seen was in Vanguard. Harvest raid mobs for materials, give them to a skilled crafter, and pray that months worth of work doesn't go to waste. Likewise, the raid-crafted items in VG were the best looking and highest stat items in the game (i.e. the bow in my avatar)


    This post was edited by Defiant at March 5, 2015 5:12 PM PST
    • 87 posts
    December 7, 2015 2:07 AM PST

    i know this post is old but it seemed best placed for my recent thought bubble.

    I have been watching and reading (even participating) in the artifact conversation, and it got me interested in a crafting pathway for artifact type drops?  So go with me my mind is a scary place.

    So imagine that in order to be able to craft what are essentially current day artifact type items (you know, those things that fill future lore books) you need to go through a significantly difficult training /vocational process whereby you needed to unlock the required crafting secrets to utilise artifact type ingredients.  Imagine you needed to focus on crafting in such a way that it meant there may be occasion where doing the crafting quests or treking to a remote environment to reach the hidden master, were the primary function and raiding was secondary.  Perhaps the upshot to getting crafting to a position that meant you could craft end game raid type equipment meant this was your characters life and that guilds actually wanted these types of characters and would support them?

    The 'should there be only one artifact per server' conversation has made me think.  What if a certain mob, lets call him the Ubah Dragon of Death, spawned randomly throughout the year.  Lets say that in addition to the "Shield of the Ubah Dragon of Death" that will drop once a year (or whatever timeframe considered suitable for such a wonderful item), it was guaranteed to drop artifact quality scales/blood/bone (or other suitable crafting mat).  these mats (dependent on type) could be utilised by an Artifact trained crafter (note above comment regarding how difficult this should be) to create something so special guilds would seek it out.  I am not considering that if in the above example blood dropped from a mob that it would be used to only create the "Sword of ubahness infused with blood of the Ubah Dragon of Death".  I am considering that at such high level crafters could utilise the blood to create an item of signifigance for whoever may obtain it?  Essentially, it would be some form of crafted enhancement.  What this would mean across a server, based on spawn rate and death rate of said mob, you could (lets say monthly spawn and kill rate) have 12 items crafted that utilise the artifact type drop (noting that if there were drop variations, the available items of any type would be reduced).

    In addition, lets say that the Ubah Dragon of Death, dropped items that enahnced or mitigated fire type dmg, or that it was of fire elemental base.  Imagine crafters needed to pursue the ability to use the elemental based item specifically and that to use other elemnetal type items you would have to pursue additional paths.  Perhpas that in addition to an elemental base, crafters needed a beastiary understanding, that would allow them to utilise items from beastkin, dragonkin, giantkin etc...

    the time working through this for crafting characters would be consuming but in the end very worthwhile.

    To be able to - or should i say, to know these pathways exist would have meant you had attained some form of legendary status as a crafter and the pathway would open to you only after a certain point...(typing without clear direction here but i hope the point comes across).

    Wouldn't it be neat that in order to enfuse weapons/armour with life giving properties you would have had to have sacrificed yourself in order to obtain the relevant insight?

    or...perhaps i need a hobby and to get off the forums

    cheers

     

    Edit: typos

     


    This post was edited by Narben4 at December 7, 2015 2:15 AM PST
    • 45 posts
    December 8, 2015 12:00 PM PST

    +1 to everything Narben said and adding beyond the concept of uber ultra rare skill requirement / drops, make recipes beyond the basics take some amount of effort to obtain relative to the quality of the items you're talking about. Common items use common recipes and can come from common sources (merchants, auto-received based on craft skill, etc.). More high quality items and getting into the Rare / Very Rare / Actually Useful items, those recipes should come from harder to obtain sources, whether it be the result of quests, regular mobs, or raid mobs.

    That will result in a differentiation between players. In most MMOs, a level 50 blacksmith (or skill level or whatever mechanic is used for tradeskill progression) is the same as every other level 50 blacksmith, able to make the same items, with the same ingredients. Consider how completely different this is to adventuring where level 50 wizards could be completely different when taking skill and equipment into account. Let recipes or flags for having gone on such artifact quests be what allows crafters to differentiate themselves so that people can think about someone as being the best blacksmith on the server just the same way they would think of the best tanks or the best dps. 

    • 158 posts
    December 22, 2015 10:25 AM PST

    I always though a good place for end game crafting was "enhancing".  So a master crafter with all the rigfht quests, tools and craftingstations on hand could "upgrade" or "enhance" raid gear.

     

    In this way you could get a small edge, not massive game breaking, but a small edge by having say a master craftsman upgrade your raid BP armor or weapons wth combo of drops, and harvestables. Harvesting in a raid zone would be required and only a one harvest per node, and nothing respawns until the zone does.

     

    Would take some careful planning to not screw up balance, but yet another way for a crafter to add benefit to a guild.

    • 309 posts
    December 29, 2015 4:44 AM PST

    I have liked in previous games, where end game crafters could use top tier materials found in the world as well as special "raid drops" to make raid equivalent pieces of gear. It was a way to get an equivalent piece of gear instead of waiting for the RNG gods to cause your gear piece to drop.


    I also enjoyed the enhancing idea brought up by @Exmortis for sure but I would want the enhancing material to be found in the raids themselves so that the raiders and crafters had something to sell from raids that was useful to anyone with the right skill to use and would help the in game economy!

    • 87 posts
    December 29, 2015 4:35 PM PST

    Aggelos said:

    I have liked in previous games, where end game crafters could use top tier materials found in the world as well as special "raid drops" to make raid equivalent pieces of gear. It was a way to get an equivalent piece of gear instead of waiting for the RNG gods to cause your gear piece to drop.


    I also enjoyed the enhancing idea brought up by @Exmortis for sure but I would want the enhancing material to be found in the raids themselves so that the raiders and crafters had something to sell from raids that was useful to anyone with the right skill to use and would help the in game economy!

    not sure how much i like the idea of the top end items being able to be sold.  this is where ou start to get top end gear into the hands of people of may not have 'earned it' both adventurers and crafters. I am still liking the idea of binding such items to the guild who obtained them for distribution to their crafters who need not be present at the kill. 

    • 309 posts
    December 30, 2015 5:08 AM PST

    Narben4 said:
    not sure how much i like the idea of the top end items being able to be sold. this is where you start to get top end gear into the hands of people of may not have 'earned it' both adventurers and crafters. I am still liking the idea of binding such items to the guild who obtained them for distribution to their crafters who need not be present at the kill.


    Let me see if I can refine my idea a little to explain why I think selling is ok.


    1) The items for enhancement would only enhance items from that particular raid/zone/encounter/etc (this would keep people from obtaining gear they haven’t “earned” because the enhancement items only work on items from that raid)


    2) This would support full "crafting" characters in that they could buy the enhancement materials from pure raiders who either do not have someone in the guild or wish to make a little cash and the crafter could then take that item and turn around and sell their services at a premium.


    3) Having items work only for items from that particular raid would create an interdependency between crafters and raiders to work together to enhance gear accordingly and allowing raiders to sell the enhancement items would allow crafter not affiliated with raiding guilds to be able to purchase the excess items from raiders and go around and give them a way to "compete" in the current raid tier even if they are not part of a raiding type guild.


    This post was edited by Aggelos at December 30, 2015 5:08 AM PST
    • 87 posts
    December 30, 2015 7:06 PM PST

    Aggelos said:

    Let me see if I can refine my idea a little to explain why I think selling is ok.


    1) The items for enhancement would only enhance items from that particular raid/zone/encounter/etc (this would keep people from obtaining gear they haven’t “earned” because the enhancement items only work on items from that raid) - I like this 


    2) This would support full "crafting" characters in that they could buy the enhancement materials from pure raiders who either do not have someone in the guild or wish to make a little cash and the crafter could then take that item and turn around and sell their services at a premium. - need to ensure that crafters who can use it have had to devote time to their craft (not that i think you are suggesting anything different).  Would not work if any person could lvl crafting to a point where they can use such items.


    3) Having items work only for items from that particular raid would create an interdependency between crafters and raiders to work together to enhance gear accordingly and allowing raiders to sell the enhancement items would allow crafter not affiliated with raiding guilds to be able to purchase the excess items from raiders and go around and give them a way to "compete" in the current raid tier even if they are not part of a raiding type guild. 

    had me at 1, wavered at 2 (orange highlight) and 3 worries me.  

    I think we have to consider whether we want top end crafting gear to be on par (or heaven forbid better than) with raid drops.  I would want this parity (enhancements can make crafted gear and raid drop gear better).  As such i don't think this type of gear should be sellable.  My reasoning is that guilds could simply look to buy their way into content by focussing on the market.  Individuals could simply buy their way to a set of gear without having to do content either as a raider or a crafter.

    If items were guild bound and the crafted item was guild bound the gear would be going to a guild and it's members who were competing in the zone.

    My purist ideal of carfting is that it is not done for individual financial gain but it is done the for greater guild good.  I see this as creating the greatest bond between raiders and crafters from the same family.

    enjoying the chat


    This post was edited by Narben4 at December 30, 2015 7:07 PM PST
    • 309 posts
    December 31, 2015 5:21 AM PST

    Narben4 said:
    had me at 1, wavered at 2 (orange highlight) and 3 worries me.


    I think we have to consider whether we want top end crafting gear to be on par (or heaven forbid better than) with raid drops. I would want this parity (enhancements can make crafted gear and raid drop gear better). As such i don't think this type of gear should be sellable. My reasoning is that guilds could simply look to buy their way into content by focusing on the market. Individuals could simply buy their way to a set of gear without having to do content either as a raider or a crafter. If items were guild bound and the crafted item was guild bound the gear would be going to a guild and it's members who were competing in the zone.


    My purist ideal of carfting is that it is not done for individual financial gain but it is done the for greater guild good. I see this as creating the greatest bond between raiders and crafters from the same family.


    enjoying the chat


    Loving the chat honestly! I love having a crafting character. Depending on how they do the crafting in this game I will have a "crafting alt" most likely a Dwarf because it just makes sense :D


    Going to start with the green comment, I like the way World of Warcraft did this in early Wrath of the Lich King expansion. Every boss had a high drop chance and even trash mobs had a chance to drop a raid specific crafting material. This material was used with the top level crafting material to create a piece of gear that was higher than anything you could get in smaller dungeons or with crafting but it was several item levels lower then gear in the dungeons. This was a way to help gear up if you were waiting on a specific drop from a boss without having to attempt the raids with gear that was from a previous tier of raiding or dungeon loot that was normally much lower in item level. In my mind, these crafting materials could be sold but it would still require a crafter to have equivalent skill to use. I am also one that doesn’t think crafting is a side chore. I love crafting and I think it should take equal dedication to any other type of gameplay. ESO had an interesting system with a crafting having to learn how to craft a trait by breaking down an item with it. This was time gated so it wasn’t the most interesting but someone who had a full 9/9 traits researched for a single piece of gear had spent a lot of time dedicated to crafting because the first trait you learned from a piece of gear only took 6 hours to learn. By the 8th or 9th trait, it was over 30 days. So all in all it took over 6 months of making sure you were checking your researches to get it. Again, it wasn’t super intriguing gameplay but it was a way to show someone had spent a lot of time dedicated to their crafting.

    Next up orange comment, I think we both agree on this 100%! No gear obtained from raids/dungeons should be tradable. PERIOD. I am ok if it is tradable within the group that killed it but no one else. Gear should be earned. Now I don't think this applies to crafting drops or those enhancement materials that you can use. Say we have a honing stone drop in a raid. That is an enchantment material. Having a crafter apply it to a sword increases it damage from 10 to 11. It is a small upgrade but it would require a skill crafter to do it. I think these should be sellable because let’s say for arguments sake, a particular item can be enhanced 4 times. So once everyone in the raid has their weapons/armor enhanced completely but the raiding guild is still raiding that dungeon any extra drops they can store for other members or sell to help them bankroll their raid teams by having a nice bit of cash to buy raid consumables or even by buying crafting materials when the next raids come out from other guilds to help build up their raid teams.

    Finally blue comment, I love your comment and within a guild this should be the case. I also know that Pantheon is about meaningful group gameplay but what if you do not wish to be part of a raiding guild? What if I want to role-play a merchant or play a full time crafter where my only job is gathering and crafting gear for adventurers? I know I love that play style and I know a lot of others do as well. I have a gentleman who was in my raiding guild in World of Warcraft that hated raiding. But what he did love to do was craft so he was our sole guild crafter. He would log in each day and farm for hours for crafting materials and made sure we always had raid food, potions, elixirs, etc. Now what would happen to that kind of play style if they weren’t able to buy those dropped crafting components or enhancement items? Part of the game tenets is having a thriving player driven economy as well and when items are bound and not sellable that tends to cause items to lose value in the player market because once you hit a certain level why would you even bother buying a non-raiding crafters gear? It isn’t as good as what drops and they can’t even enhance gear that you get from dungeons because they can’t get their hands on the materials because they choose not to raid.

    • 45 posts
    January 5, 2016 8:16 AM PST

    I absolutely agree with Aggelos' blue comment. Creating interdependency and interactions between different types of players are what keeps a server healthy. If someone loves to craft but doesn't have the time or desire to participate in hardcore raiding, they can still have some interaction with that content to the extent they can interact with raiders and helping build a more dynamic economy.

    I understand and agree with the premise of why you think no gear obtained from raids/dungeons should be tradeable. However in practice, people will sell loot rights and you will have people camping popular items in order to sell them. Sure, you could lock loot rights to those in the group/raid at the time of killing but that is going to get into a whole host of other issues also such as if someone's game crashes 5 seconds before a big raid mob dies and all of a sudden are locked out of loot rights when they log back in 30 seconds after it dies. If you say that's unacceptable, then you have to accept that people will sell raid/dungeon loot in the game, whether its tradeable or not. Given that imperfect world we live in, I would rather see a system designed from the start to foster a community on the server by allowing some items, especially at the group dungeon level to be tradeable. Even at the raid level, I think there should be more common tradeskill type ingredients that can then be sold to crafters for wider distribution around the server. That could be anything from harvesting tea leaves in a raid zone that makes an uber drink to semi-rare drops off raid trash mobs that can be used to craft tradeable armor with stats below raid gear but dungeon level gear that could be used for players wanting to start trying to raid. If every item in the game that has half-decent stats is no-drop, then you have no community. No EC tunnel for players of all playstyles to gather and interact. No casual player asking his raiding friend to keep his eye out for some special ore that can be mined in a raid zone he frequents. Every group or guild only sticks to themselves and doesn't interact with the rest of the server, and that is how you end up with 90% of the server popution giving up on the game over time.

    I also don't think that a discussion of whether high end crafting items can be better than raid drops is a bit of a fuzzy area because who says they have to be mutually exclusive? The basic logic that is justified by is that it takes more time and is more challenging to beat raid content than to become a master crafter (say that to someone who completed the Coldain Prayer Shawl...). But if thats the case, high end crafting using ingredients dropped from raids requires even more time and effort than a raid drop, because the ingredients themselves are a raid drop. If it takes X time/effort to kill a dragon that drops a breastplate, it takes more than X time/effort to kill a dragon, loot a dragonscale from it, and then have a master blacksmith use that scale to make a breastplate. Therefore its only reasonable to expect the crafted breastplate to be superior to the dropped breastplate. 

    • 309 posts
    January 6, 2016 6:28 AM PST

    Absolutely Gemdiver! If they want a thriving in game economy there needs to be some form of interaction between the entire server community not just the segregated "raid scene" and then "everyone else". I am not a first time parent. I like to consider myself a hardcore raid (or at least was) but my time has become vastly more limited than it was before. I enjoy crafting almost as much as raiding and crafting is something I can do anytime and I can help make an impact in the server community buy being able to buy/sell upgrades to raiding gear or create raid gear equivalents using looted materials from aforementioned raids. :)

    • 158 posts
    January 6, 2016 11:27 AM PST

    I love how raiders get their panties in a bunch when there is even a hint that a non raider might have something asgood/better then them.  Borderlines elitism.

     

    But if what I posted was read, I said "Enhance" not "Craft" thus it means you must have the raid drop item legit, then have it enhanced.  Shared crafting stations would mean a person could add the item in the station, and the crafter do the work, and it appear back in the owners inventory when done. This idea would also facilitate upgrading and/or repairs.

     

    Personally I always wondered why hardcore raiders wouldn't want the right to sell drops, after all that work and effort to have it pinned on looters only, wouldn't the ability to make some cash on it be great?  I personally am neutral on that subject.  I am a core player, hardcore grouper/crafter and casual raider.  But if the bulk of the raiders don't want this, then so be it, changes my life little.  Just thought they would want a way to capitalize on their efforts.

     

    What my idea is, that a guild of raiders could benefit from crafters, who may be non raiders.  Similar how raiders benefitted from master diplos in Vanguard.  Now maybe they would be raiders and crafters, but it offers a simbiosis missing from most games is all.


    This post was edited by Exmortis at January 6, 2016 11:30 AM PST
    • 463 posts
    February 18, 2016 4:44 AM PST

    Exmortis said:

    I always though a good place for end game crafting was "enhancing".  So a master crafter with all the rigfht quests, tools and craftingstations on hand could "upgrade" or "enhance" raid gear.

     

    In this way you could get a small edge, not massive game breaking, but a small edge by having say a master craftsman upgrade your raid BP armor or weapons wth combo of drops, and harvestables. Harvesting in a raid zone would be required and only a one harvest per node, and nothing respawns until the zone does.

     

    Would take some careful planning to not screw up balance, but yet another way for a crafter to add benefit to a guild.

     

    Great idea.

    I always thought it was ridiculous that dropped raid gear after defeating a boss was in pristine condition (barring items that are retrieved from a repository or container anyway).

    • 357 posts
    March 5, 2016 8:26 PM PST

    I would like to see Raid gear being Tradeable. and i would also like to see crafting materials drop from raids that can be used to make raid level gear. maybe even alllow for crafters to Tweak Raid drops to better suit the player.

     

    Raid gear being tradeable - in my view this does not hurt raiders at all, in fact it would help raiders they could sell the items from a previous tier when they upgrade, this would allow the raiders to use the money to buy consumables and other items.

     

    Tweaking Raid drops - Say i have Wolf kings belt which has awesome AGI and Dex but is low on AC i could hand it to a crafter with some of Lodi's Turtleshell and they could stud the belt with turtleshell upping the defense. or maybe i am a warrior and would like to have STA instead of DEX the crafter could (using high end materials) replace the Dex Stat with STA. allowing me to really benefit from the belt.

     

    Crafting Material Drops - now unlike most here i am in favor of these materials being useable for many things anything from making new items to upgrading existing ones and dont just have recipes that we follow to make the same item as everyone else, i would like to see a system where items are given an effect individually and you can fuse them together to make an item, and even name it, along with setting the appearance to an extent. say i have 5 items:

    Dragon Leather, Dragon Heart, Dragon Scales, Dragon Tendon, and Adamantite Ore.

    now i could take the items and make a literally anything with these items in multiple ways imagination is the limit, but some may be better than others. if i were to make a piece of scalemail by directly using the scales to sew them to leather padding with the Tendon and soaking it in a vat with the heart to infuse the lifeforce of the dragon with it i could come up with a piece of gear that is better than group gear, but not quite what the raid drops would be. maybe it looks like this:

    Dragon Scalemail

    AC 50

    HP 50

    Agility 50

     

    But on the flipside if i take and forged the scales into the adamantite making scales and using the heartblood in a vat of water to temper them it could look like this:

    DragonForged Scalemail

    AC 150

    HP 75

    AGI 50

    Now because i Tempered the scales in the blood instead of just rudamentary soaking more of the essence was absorbed raising the total hp given while the AC was raised because i used the Dragonscales to harden the Adamantite making the end product superior. but maybe i want to make a Bow Instead?

     

    Now to make a Bow i would use the leather to make a handgrip, the scales and adamantite forged together to make a solid body, the tendon as the string, and once more the heart blood as a temper. now it looks like this:

    Dragonlord's Warbow

    ATK 100

    HP 75

    AGI 50

    Accuracy 50

    Required 75 Str.

     

    Or if i take and forged just the handgrip wrapping it in leather, then attached metal Leaves with leather between each leaf and used a different amount of scales forged into each leaf with the interior having the least amount of scale imbued it changes things:

    DragonLord's Composite Bow

    ATK 150

    HP 75

    AGI 75

    ACC 75

    Required STR 30

    Because it was made from composite of 3 different Dragonscale alloys it lowered the STR requirement because the new form is more springlike also because of this the atk is raised. because the new bow uses leather between the springs of the body it in itself is lighter because less metal was used overall and raised the AGI. also because less STR is used to pull the bow the accuracy is Raised.

     

    just some thoughts

    • 182 posts
    March 10, 2016 9:06 AM PST

    This is from distant memory, so forgive the innacuracies.

    Way back in WOW, there was a quest series to forge Dark Iron equipment.  Dark iron was mineable and it dropped off mobs in, what was then, the highest level dungeon.  It was needed for fire resistance to fight the raid encounters.  You needed to figure out how to beat the dungeon first, then you had to figure out how to get to the trade-skill quest-giver, then you needed to work faction to obtain the recipes, then you had to farm the materials. 

    I loved living inside Blackrock Mountain.  It was a huge dungeon and it took hours and hours to complete.  The quest for Black Iron gear was something the whole guild undertook, and it was celebrated each time a new piece of gear got created.

    I think a return of this type of epic crafting is overdue.

    • 51 posts
    March 20, 2016 10:08 AM PDT

    Gemdiver said:

    I absolutely agree with Aggelos' blue comment. Creating interdependency and interactions between different types of players are what keeps a server healthy. If someone loves to craft but doesn't have the time or desire to participate in hardcore raiding, they can still have some interaction with that content to the extent they can interact with raiders and helping build a more dynamic economy.

    I understand and agree with the premise of why you think no gear obtained from raids/dungeons should be tradeable. However in practice, people will sell loot rights and you will have people camping popular items in order to sell them. Sure, you could lock loot rights to those in the group/raid at the time of killing but that is going to get into a whole host of other issues also such as if someone's game crashes 5 seconds before a big raid mob dies and all of a sudden are locked out of loot rights when they log back in 30 seconds after it dies. If you say that's unacceptable, then you have to accept that people will sell raid/dungeon loot in the game, whether its tradeable or not. Given that imperfect world we live in, I would rather see a system designed from the start to foster a community on the server by allowing some items, especially at the group dungeon level to be tradeable. Even at the raid level, I think there should be more common tradeskill type ingredients that can then be sold to crafters for wider distribution around the server. That could be anything from harvesting tea leaves in a raid zone that makes an uber drink to semi-rare drops off raid trash mobs that can be used to craft tradeable armor with stats below raid gear but dungeon level gear that could be used for players wanting to start trying to raid. If every item in the game that has half-decent stats is no-drop, then you have no community. No EC tunnel for players of all playstyles to gather and interact. No casual player asking his raiding friend to keep his eye out for some special ore that can be mined in a raid zone he frequents. Every group or guild only sticks to themselves and doesn't interact with the rest of the server, and that is how you end up with 90% of the server popution giving up on the game over time.

    I also don't think that a discussion of whether high end crafting items can be better than raid drops is a bit of a fuzzy area because who says they have to be mutually exclusive? The basic logic that is justified by is that it takes more time and is more challenging to beat raid content than to become a master crafter (say that to someone who completed the Coldain Prayer Shawl...). But if thats the case, high end crafting using ingredients dropped from raids requires even more time and effort than a raid drop, because the ingredients themselves are a raid drop. If it takes X time/effort to kill a dragon that drops a breastplate, it takes more than X time/effort to kill a dragon, loot a dragonscale from it, and then have a master blacksmith use that scale to make a breastplate. Therefore its only reasonable to expect the crafted breastplate to be superior to the dropped breastplate. 

    Well said.. Agreed.

    • 44 posts
    March 29, 2016 1:45 AM PDT

    There are some mojor flaws with this first off if only one or 2 playears can make said awesome gear and it can be sold they will be charging a fortune for the gear which will promote gold sellers. Secondly if ypu have gear that is only good for one raid then your going to be packing around 5-10 sets of gear all the time either on your person or sitting in your bank. not to many people want to spend the entire game trying to get all the gear for all the raid areas because basically you'll have to raid end game raids continuously to even hope to get some pieces. Anther problem is if only A few people will get said drop what's the use of having a crafting profession if it's going to take you years to get the drop and by then youl be on the third expansion and the item will no longer be viable. Quality crafted gear ineeds to be BoP period if other players want it they can pick up crafting and make the item or just stick to raid gear. If done right the high quality crafted gear mats would drop from high level raids to so the crafter would still have to know their stuff in raids to be there to get the items. Making things hard is a challenge making things near impossible ruins that aspect of the game. I want crafting to be fun enjoyable and rewarding not frustrating and annoying. There needs to be some good non BoP crafted gear as well but that should only be good enough to get you going on high level raiding. Make it to easy every one will have the gear make it to difficult few will craft make it un rewarding annoying and frustrating and fewwer still will even partake in crafting so there is a fine line and I guarantee some people won't be happy with what ends up being the crafting trade no matter what is in the game. 

    • 45 posts
    April 1, 2016 2:04 AM PDT

    Narben4 said:

    i know this post is old but it seemed best placed for my recent thought bubble.

    I have been watching and reading (even participating) in the artifact conversation, and it got me interested in a crafting pathway for artifact type drops?  So go with me my mind is a scary place.

    So imagine that in order to be able to craft what are essentially current day artifact type items (you know, those things that fill future lore books) you need to go through a significantly difficult training /vocational process whereby you needed to unlock the required crafting secrets to utilise artifact type ingredients.  Imagine you needed to focus on crafting in such a way that it meant there may be occasion where doing the crafting quests or treking to a remote environment to reach the hidden master, were the primary function and raiding was secondary.  Perhaps the upshot to getting crafting to a position that meant you could craft end game raid type equipment meant this was your characters life and that guilds actually wanted these types of characters and would support them?

     

    I see a big downside on this ... Consider yourself right now as the "Mastercrafter" ... More or less everything you did in this game was going for the big Crafting Series of Quests and life for it ^^ (your character)

    Then there comes a younger version of yourself, more time, less work to do and just gets better then you ... will Guilds still want you? Or did you just waste all the work and are considered a useless brick now - no guild ever would want.

    This may be a very hard point .. if there is something like a deep binding to your crafting skills like others for example do for other stuff like gearing up and going into PvE, while you decide to go for becoming the Crafter Legend everyone wants.

    • 582 posts
    April 1, 2016 1:57 PM PDT

    There are a lot of good ideas in this thread. I'll bring up a few points of my own on what I think would a) keep crafting relevant and b) develop the interdependacy between raiders and crafters.

    ~Exmortis' idea about being able to upgrade equipment is honestly great imo. I don't think those upgrades should be huge but even a small bump is worth it. For this to continue to be relevant however the drops would have to match. Meaning drops from zone A require mats from zone A. This keeps things in check so to speak. This would also require a bit of attention by the dev's to ensure that it can't be exploited in some way giving a certain group of people a large upper hand. These items should be tradeable. No question about it. If they are not then you will be forcing people who only want to craft to go to raids just to get the materials needed for them. Also, as a guild leader, I wouldn't feel comfortable having people holding these hard to come by mats. If they leave your guild you lose possibly months of work.

    ~Raid gear is raid gear. It is top tier stuff and it should be. Does that mean that crafters shouldn't be able to make some? No. It doesn't. If a crafter invests the time into the game to be amazing at what he wants to do why should they not be able to make things comparable? The thing is that there needs to be a trade off. The materials required need to be a mix of both raid material and large amounts of farmed materials out side of raids. Add that in to being required to create things in a special forge/oven/etc. This could be an area in the depths of a top end dungeon or even in the raid itself. So guilds would need to decide what is more worth it, the crafted gear or the upgrades. Crafted gear obviously would use more of the raid mats. Telling crafters they shouldn't be able to make equal gear because they didn't put in the effort is just wrong. The game needs to allow it but force the time requirement for it along with the choices involved. 

    ~Raid gear, tradeable or not? My vote is yes, tradeable. If it is not related to a quest then there should not be a single thing in game imo that is no trade. Quest items should be no trade for obvious reasons with no way to MQ it. 

    ~I genuinely like the idea of having crafted artifacts. Having 1 boss that spawns once a month on a random timer, not so much. What happens when this boss spawns during a work day when most people are no where around? Then that month is gone for any chance for your guild. I would rather have it be where all artifact enabled crafters have a .05% chance on say dragon kills to obtain a bone, scale, blood, etc. The drop would be extremely low unless your entire raid took the time to do the artifact questline (which should be no less than the same as an epic weapon). But allow many different recipes that utilize those mats. That way guilds can have options on who will get things. The whole idea of a once off boss with random spawn times doesn't sit well with me. 

    ~Since we are on the topic of Artifacts, none of them should ever be a weapon. Weapons can be hard to balance around. Make them too strong and it becomes a must for whatever classes. Make them too weak and it's a waste of the materials. I would rather see breastplates before a weapon. These should also require tons of mats outside of just the drop. Say you want to make the plate chestpiece. Have it require X ingot but to forge said ingot you would need to first smelt down 50 Steel Ingots along with Y (something hard to get but outside of raid). Then smelt that ingot with the dragon scale to create the base material. Basically, if I tell my tanks that they will be getting the chestpiece first then I want to see who puts in the most effort and wants it. I don't want to require my guild to do the work for them. While the guild would benefit overall, it is essentially theirs once crafted. These are the only items in game that I would say I would want to be No Trade once equipt. These should not be able to be passed around or given to a twink.  

    • 44 posts
    April 2, 2016 1:42 PM PDT

    Enitzu said:

     

    ~Raid gear, tradeable or not? My vote is yes, tradeable. If it is not related to a quest then there should not be a single thing in game imo that is no trade. Quest items should be no trade for obvious reasons with no way to MQ it. 

    • 44 posts
    April 2, 2016 2:00 PM PDT

    Absolutely completely and adamantly disagree talk about making a raid a farm. Raid gear should never be tradable, you will have max level players rolling on items that they can not use strictly for profit or for an alt character/different account While players who actualy can use a need the gear are left empty handed. Why raid, I'll just sit back and farm mobs buy in game currency on line and buy the raid gear then I will have the best gear and will have only spent a few $$ real mone. Being able to trade raid gear is the worst idea possible. You will have ninja looters as well. There is absolutely no reason to trade raid gear it helps keeping people coming back to the raids, you didn't get the drop you wanted this run well we will try on the next. As for crafed gear as good as raid gear ok sure as long as the materials needed to craft item drops of raid bosses that the raid gear drops off and as for the guild crafting suggestion, again I disagree. A crafter is on his own sure the guild or players can donate if they want but they should be able to do it at their leisure. So having to craft an item in a raid or dungeon? No players spend hours upon hours working their crafting then the spend hours on hours getting ready to raid and raiding. If they have the materials they should be able to go to a forge/loom or what ever they need and creat the item. Sure have have them have to travel to a spec city to craft the item but they should be able to access it on their own so if they want they can have the item for the raid basically because if they have to run the raid/dungeon to get the materials why are they being punished by having to run it again to craft an item they have already earned the right to poses? Crafting should be hard time consuming fun and rewarding not a punishment. 


    This post was edited by Korocus at April 2, 2016 2:05 PM PDT
    • 47 posts
    April 3, 2016 5:10 PM PDT

    Ok here is my 2cp I think crafted item should be as good as raid items but only if it takes as much time to be able to craft the item as it would be if you had to raid for it.. Like to be able to craft a raid level BP you would have to have the mats from let say 5-10 zones and have the faction for the raid zone to be able to go in and buy some mats needed for the last combine, because lets face it if you are role playing as a merchant then you have to be able to travel to many areas to be able to make the deals to stay in business. Oh and of course if you are raiding a level 50 zone then you must be level 50 to be able to get the mats and to do the combine. Now as for drop/no drop I think it should be tradable but only useable to the same level as the item that it makes.

    Ok now to the crafted item it self, let say Bob is a crafter and made the uber BP from a raid zone

    Bob sells one BP to Tom who is level 50 but has never been on a raid in that zone, and does not have the flag from the raid boss, then when he puts it on the BP it is now no trade and only gives the stats a little better then a BP that can be gotten from a group content. Now if Tom go on a raid and beats the raid boss and get the flag then the BP has the same stats of the one dropped from the raid boss

    Now Bob sales another BP to John and he has raided the zone a few times and has the flag but has not been lucky enough to get the BP from the raid boss. When he puts on the BP it has the same stats as the one from the raid boss

    I think by doing something like this you can keep the crafter working and keep ppl raiding, but also lessen the risk of have only a few guild camping the raid bosses

    • 45 posts
    April 4, 2016 12:43 AM PDT

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

    • 34 posts
    April 4, 2016 2:18 AM PDT

    I like many of the ideas in this thread, and would fully support them.  An alternative (not easier) gearing method is going to be necessary eventually, and crafting is the perfect way to privide that.  Should crafted gear be better to or equal to raid gear?  That, we could argue about until they shut down the servers 30 (hopefully) years from now.  I do, however agree that the best stuff shouldn't be craftable by any ol' joe who just capped his blacksmithing skill.  I have an answer for that which will scale infinitely into the future.  Take a look at the way FFXIV handles end-game crafting.  Crafting there has levels, not skill points (just like EQ2, BTW).  You must craft / buy gear to support your trade, then you must socket materia to this gear to increase the stats to the point that you can crit on the best gear.  Different trades socket different pieces of gear.  It takes a while, and all gear slots get a piece of gear. 

    Adapted to Pantheon, the same type of system could alleviate some of the issues we have with crafting raid quality or end-game gear.  What if crafter worn gear required a raid drop to make?  If it were no trade or guild bound, then a guild's dedicated crafters have an outlet to further their chosen playstyle.

     

     

     

     

     

    Lagencie said:

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

     

    I get what you're trying to saying here, but it's a circular argument, and pay to win is a gross exaggeration.  You can never fully combat this as you can sell or buy an account anyway.  Besides, it is painfully obvious to everyone else who these buyers are.  Really, see that BIS DD over there without a single non-tradeable item behind the tank in damage, or that Cleric out of mana because he didn't learn leveling up that this isn't WoW healing?  That's your buyer.  Besides, if the system is designed properly, then you won't have a market flooded with raid level gear items.  Even IF there's no tradeable crafted gear at raid level, there are other ways.  I think it was EQ2 that allowed untradeable items to be crafted by a crafter for another player inside of a trade window.  This prevents a person from stopping by the AH and buying all of their gear.  There are other options out there that don't diminish the efforts of dedicated tradeskillers.


    This post was edited by Wanderica at April 4, 2016 2:27 AM PDT