Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - What was the worst game mechanic

    • 2756 posts
    June 2, 2020 1:10 AM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    I want to add another one - voice chat.  I know this is a contraversial one and I'm guessing I'm the minority but I get to post my opinion :)  
    I don't like voice chat because I want to hear what the game designeers want me to hear, not other players voices, or the music they're listening to, or their dog barking.  I enjoy the in-game music and sound effects.  I have quit playing games because voice chat was the norm, and I quit raids in WoW whenever the raid leader said it was a requirement.  There ya have it :)

    That *is* a controversial one, but I'm with you. I know people will roll their eyes, but, for one thing, it ruins immersion. No, I don't sit in a group trying to believe I'm talking to an ogre and an elf, but I don't need to have it pushed in my face that I'm actually talking to an annoying schoolkid and a thinks-he's-funny, slightly drunk, sports-dad or whatever combo is up tonight.

    Also, it can be just plain annoying. In a group of six, there will *always* be someone who you'd rather not have in your ear for some reason, even if it's just their crappy microphone.

    It's slightly better if it's friends IRL or a raid where you might not be so bothered about soaking up the atmosphere, but even then, it's not ideal.

    Also, voice chat changes the pace of the game. Some would say that's good, but in a game where you *want* the pace to be tactical and considered, removing the need to type concise instructions and questions is not a bonus. Having six people blurt comments all at once because something faster-paced is happening is not ideal anyway - typing, nothing is missed.

    I'm glad VR have no plans to code their own, not because it's a waste of time these days with so many third party solutions, but because it would raise the probability of it being the defacto method of comms. I hope that doesn't happen, but, yeah, you and me might be a minority here, Ran.

    It seems gamers these days can't imagine why you wouldn't use voice chat, whereas I have to really think hard about why I would want to and why I should have to.

    At most I think maybe raid leaders could use it and *maybe* group leaders if an area is really tricky, but for preference, people should just get used to typing.


    This post was edited by disposalist at June 2, 2020 1:11 AM PDT
    • 111 posts
    June 2, 2020 3:42 AM PDT
    - dailies
    - dungeonfinder
    - 3rd person view (i know people will hate me for this. And i can see their points. its really confortable and has to big advantages to not use it (looking around corners, seeing better where voids are, looking behind your char, etc - but for me 1st view is so much more immersive).
    • 1315 posts
    June 2, 2020 4:15 AM PDT

    @Ranarius and @disposalist on voice chat:

    Even when people are trying to have good mic protocol they can still have crappy hardware.  My brother in law cannot figure out how to make his typing not come through constantly and his mic pops every 45 seconds or so.  I simply cannot be on discord with him for any length of time without getting a headache.

    That being said I am not sure we can ever really go back to text only communication.  Sort of Pandora’s box.  The speed at which you can vocally communicate vs communicate in writing favors vocal by at least an order of magnitude.  If you need that speed for tactical reasons that’s a brutal twitch game, but if you only need a few milliseconds to tactically communicate all that dead air becomes perfect for socializing during long fights.  Many classes will likely not function if you switch from using your controls to writing a message.

    Maybe some day we will get some good voice to text or voice to text to thematic character appropriate voice reproduction within a game to cut out all that background chatter.

    @ Dungeon Finder

    I would like to point out that the worst part of Dungeon Finder is the auto-port and maybe the rando assembly.  If the LFG tool instead could be accessed by group leaders to invite people in a reasonable geographic range who have flagged as LFG and set some form of gather point marker that could be useful.  Especially if you can leave notes for what you are looking to do, time available, and other similar things.  Likewise a group could list what they are looking for and where they are at.  It could even be turned into a form of camp check “what does your groupfinder say for your location?”.

    @ Iksar

    Short predictable leashing is nearly as bad as infinite follow.  I would still favor leashing over infinite follow solely for the sudo-PvP aspect of deliberate training.  Ideally though I would set aggro to be infinite in small defense zones and a burn off rate outside of that relative to the aggro generated inside the zone with modifiers for dispositions and faction.

    I would also apply a “gang up” modifier so that if you aggro a larger group they can easily catch you.  That way the pain is on the fool running through a camp rather than the poor smuck that happens to be playing smart on the other side of the camp.  This can be done with short term sprint speeds, stamina and movement imparing effects relative to the number of pursuers.

    For that mater I might be interesting to have NPCs that are so high of level that they will not aggro you out in the open as you are beneath their notice, assuming that you are bellow a threshold level.  That does not mean you can enter their guarded zone without getting bashed.

    • 35 posts
    June 2, 2020 4:37 AM PDT

    Dailies - Look at ESO as a good example of why I hate dailies.

    Dungeon/Raid Finders

    Flying mounts

    (This is a bit out there) Official arena style pvp with ranking systems; My reasoning for this is it brings an unhealthy style of player to the game and breeds an unhealthy attitude in your community.

    Voice chat (Atleast for MMOs); My reasoning is, when you type stuff you have more time to think about what your going to type than what you are gonna say and you have a fail safe (The ENTER button) incase you change your mind or see the fault in what your gonna say. Helps reduce impulsive outbursts which reduces toxicity.

     

    XP loss on death/gear loss on death (Perma loss); My reasoning is punishing players with XP loss on death I think hinders exploration which in MMOs involves alot of dying. This combined with the punishment of having to loot your corpse to gain your stuff back is in my opinion unneccessary.

     

    This next one isnt a game mechanic moreso a monetization mechanic; I dislike MMOs where you pay the monthly subscription, after having bought the base game and then when an expansion comes out, you then have to drop 60 dollars for that expansion. Where the heck is my monthly money going to then charge me 60 for the expansion, CS, Server upkeep, expansions should all be covered by the monthly sub ontop of buying the base game ( I am fine with paying 60$ for the base game and then a monthly, as it helps deter alts of banned accounts, bot farming and other nefarious things, but I draw the line in the sand when a new expansion comes out and I have to drop another 60$ dollars on it).

     

    Free trials; Botters, gold farmers, RMT websites will use free accounts for **** like spamming players links to that stuff, literally using free acount bodies to spell out the website, type stuff in chats. Either dont have free trials (Nowadays people can just google a review and get 10000 of them. 

    Not making the majority of end game items/BiS gear BoP; I have many reasons which ill briefly touch on. 

    • Having them as BoP gives them more value as the reciever has to actually use it.
    • If you can just trade the gear down, you'll end up seeing alot of low level 'twinks' which can cheapen the experience of being a new character and will expedite peoples progress in making max level alts.
    • RMT (Real Money Trading), this is a thing especially MMOs need to be aware of, just look at Runescape OSRS the poor game is a bot fest atm. Reducing the allure of RMT with making items BoP will help reduce the effects it has on the game, prolongs the lifespan of an MMO and a whole myriad of other stuff.

    This post was edited by TheGoose at June 2, 2020 4:38 AM PDT
    • 139 posts
    June 2, 2020 4:52 AM PDT

    Nandor said: 3rd person view (i know people will hate me for this. And i can see their points. its really confortable and has to big advantages to not use it (looking around corners, seeing better where voids are, looking behind your char, etc - but for me 1st view is so much more immersive).

    +1 - I'm in total agreement. First-person would be a necessity for me if it was easily compatible with tab targeting, clicking on the environment/characters/objects, movement and other RPG systems. Would be nice if I could be in first-person view all the time. 

    • 2756 posts
    June 2, 2020 5:41 AM PDT

    Nandor said:- 3rd person view (i know people will hate me for this. And i can see their points. its really confortable and has to big advantages to not use it (looking around corners, seeing better where voids are, looking behind your char, etc - but for me 1st view is so much more immersive).

    Not hating and not 'disagreeing' since no one can disagree with how *you* feel about something, but I have to say I feel differently about first person.

    1st person feeling more immersive is totally a subjective thing. To me, it often feels *less* immersive: horrible and claustrophobic, like you are wearing blinkers or have tunnel vision. You don't see your body how you should (and infact, if you do, it looks weird anyway) and you are totally unaware of things going on around you that, in reality with peripheral vision and your other senses accurately represented, you would totally be aware of.

    It is literally the difference between a floating camera and 'real' vision. Not natural at all. There's a reason that cinema screens (and TV screens more recently) have gotten wider and wider. And there's a reason that directors only tend to use first person, low FoV footage when they want the viewer to feel tension and, often, horror.

    Sure, third person is clearly not 'real' either *but* it gives you a much better appreciation for you surroundings analogous to the awareness you would have, and it's actually very natural to view the hero of a story, your avatar, in the third person. It's how we have been doing it in cinema and TV (and real life!) forever.

    To further that point, imagining you *are* the character that you play in an MMORPG is not the way everyone does it. Personally, I've always tended to look at it more like I am directing the hero of a story rather than *being* that hero. Like a TV show I can create on-the-fly. I often get caught up and it feels very personal - and the more often that happens, the better, just like in cinema - but I've never really started from the point-of-view of imagining I *am* that hero and it's not really first person view that helps me get caught up in the world.

    Having said all that, I actually like to use both in games that allow it, depending on the situation. I use third person most of the time for a natural, situational awareness feel; zoom in somewhat when it's 'safer' and personal interactions are happening (and I want to see the people I'm with better) and zoom in totally if I'm examining something closely or in a small space where there is no wide view to be had or if I'm doing something like aiming where the view of the character is actually pivotal.

    • 627 posts
    June 2, 2020 5:47 AM PDT
    Actually gathering system that every mmo has used, why do I have to be a specifik lvl of herbalism to pick a flower?

    If i have the right tool let me use it. Sure ill might mess it up and not get a perfect example of that ressource. But I would expect to be abel to atleast try?
    • 768 posts
    June 2, 2020 5:56 AM PDT

    TheGoose said:

    ...Voice chat (Atleast for MMOs); My reasoning is, when you type stuff you have more time to think about what your going to type than what you are gonna say and you have a fail safe (The ENTER button) incase you change your mind or see the fault in what your gonna say. Helps reduce impulsive outbursts which reduces toxicity...

    Good point! It could prevent help those people that know from themselves that they sometimes are too eager and too quick to act out. 

    Then again, isn't that more a personal issue rather than an ingame mechanic causing situations you don't like?

    • 888 posts
    June 2, 2020 11:09 AM PDT
    Confusing "cumbersome" with "challenging":
    I want fun challenges that engage my brain and require creativity, strategy, and tactics. I don't want faux challenges which are really just cumbersome elements (like "kill 100 x" or "spend a whole bunch of time managing an inventory"). Cumbersome elements mostly rely upon repetition, grinding, and persistence with no real thought involved and their "reward" is the feeling you get when you finally finish something you didn't want to do. I want to fight mobs, not boredom and not the GUI.

    Gating content behind a whole bunch of complicated requirements:
    Level requirements and some level-apptopriate gear requirements are fine, but requiring specific quests and a very specific items isn't. The game ceases to be an open world experience and starts to become a regimented check list. Instead of being a lol 30 cleric lfg, I'm a lvl 30 cleric who can't join most other level 30s and must look for a specific group running a specific quest or farming for specific drops. And I need to leave game and look it up--further breaking the immersion.
    • 2752 posts
    June 2, 2020 11:25 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Nandor said:- 3rd person view (i know people will hate me for this. And i can see their points. its really confortable and has to big advantages to not use it (looking around corners, seeing better where voids are, looking behind your char, etc - but for me 1st view is so much more immersive).

    Not hating and not 'disagreeing' since no one can disagree with how *you* feel about something, but I have to say I feel differently about first person.

    1st person feeling more immersive is totally a subjective thing. To me, it often feels *less* immersive: horrible and claustrophobic, like you are wearing blinkers or have tunnel vision. You don't see your body how you should (and infact, if you do, it looks weird anyway) and you are totally unaware of things going on around you that, in reality with peripheral vision and your other senses accurately represented, you would totally be aware of.

    Gotta put my hat in with 1st person being by far the best, but only works when there is no third person (too disadvantagous to lose extra information). I don't feel first person is like wearing blinders, tunnel vision, or at all claustrophobic (especially with many first person games having FoV sliders). If that were the case I imagine every FPS game would feel awful and long ago would have made third person the norm. 

    Far more engaging to me in first person, everything has a deeper or more meaningful feel. Turning corners in dungeons, being aware of footing on bridges/ledges or looking over cliffs, keeping track of the creature(s) chasing you, and otherwise just traveling through the world is a more involved and thoughtful. 

    • 1273 posts
    June 2, 2020 11:38 AM PDT

    The problem with 1st person view in my opinion is that most games I've played do not allow you to turn your head.  You have to turn your entire body to see to the side.  If they designed 1st person view with the ability to use your neck muslces I'd be a lot more willing to say "go for it."

     

    • 1618 posts
    June 2, 2020 11:57 AM PDT

    Resource/Refining Requirements, basically crafting requires harvesting lower level mats to refine to higher mats to make gear. This is an example from a game currently in Alpha.

    A set of T5 Soldier armor costs 53 Orichalcum Ingots, 27 Infused Silk, and 24 Infused Leather.
    To craft all of this from scratch would take…

    • 11,925 Iron Ore
    • 7,155 Wood
    • 16,875 Fiber
    • 15,000 Rawhide
      With a total weight of 9,700lbs of materials to make a set that weighs 40lbs.

    If you wanted to gather that from scratch, a rough estimate puts that around:

    • 150 Iron Nodes, but only 15 Starmetal Nodes and 5 Ori Nodes.
    • 100 Trees
    • 150 Hemp Plants
    • 600 Wolves

    Again, from a crafting standpoint, the lack of in-game vendors to buy your trash when players won't, especially in a game that requires you to grind hundreds of worthless items to level up your skill. If everyone is crafting hundreds of the same sword to level up, who is going to buy yours? Without in-game vendors to buy it and remove it from the economy, you just get bloat, making all crafting along the way worthless.


    This post was edited by Beefcake at June 2, 2020 12:02 PM PDT
    • 416 posts
    June 2, 2020 12:02 PM PDT

    After thinking about this further, I've realized that there are 3 most dispised mechanics tied for 1st place. Along with dailies, which I posted earlier, I have to add cash shops, in so much that it affects game play, and thirdly, what FFXIV did with gating the group content behind a single player story.

    • 1618 posts
    June 2, 2020 12:05 PM PDT

    FTE, MDD, and other methods for determining who gets credit for a kill. Sadly, they all can be abused and all end up angering whoever didn't win. Or, even worse, when someone else is fighting a mob and all you have to do is tag it to get credit. Then, you can just go and tag each mob others are fighting with little or no risk and level up.

    • 2756 posts
    June 2, 2020 2:04 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    FTE, MDD, and other methods for determining who gets credit for a kill. Sadly, they all can be abused and all end up angering whoever didn't win. Or, even worse, when someone else is fighting a mob and all you have to do is tag it to get credit. Then, you can just go and tag each mob others are fighting with little or no risk and level up.

    One thing that would make it more fair is to have credit for the damage you did. Did 49%? You get 49% of the XP and 49% chance at the loot. Did 0.01%? Then you get next-to-nothing. Maybe weight the % somewhat if you were the first to engage. Maybe weight it somewhat if you are nearer the appropriate level for the content.

    There are lots of alternatives to 100% MDD or 100% FTE. There are hybrids and blends and there's no reason that one method should be used throughout a game, either.

    A perfect system may be very hard to come by, but there are surely better ways than just choosing plain old MDD or FTE.

    Something that encourages cooperation and coordination and not contention and competition would be a nice change, and no, that does not have to mean 'participation prizes and everyone wins' it just means not rewarding beating/griefing other players more than helping/joining other players.


    This post was edited by disposalist at June 2, 2020 2:11 PM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    June 2, 2020 2:17 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Beefcake said:

    FTE, MDD, and other methods for determining who gets credit for a kill. Sadly, they all can be abused and all end up angering whoever didn't win. Or, even worse, when someone else is fighting a mob and all you have to do is tag it to get credit. Then, you can just go and tag each mob others are fighting with little or no risk and level up.

    One thing that would make it more fair is to have credit for the damage you did. Did 49%? You get 49% of the XP and 49% chance at the loot. Did 0.01%? Then you get next-to-nothing. Maybe weight the % somewhat if you were the first to engage. Maybe weight it somewhat if you are nearer the appropriate level for the content.

    I would love that because I would exploit the every living **** out of that.  Trolling groups nonstop by just standing around attacking their mobs, keeping low enough on the hate list to not pull aggro yet high enough to get decent XP and a shot at the loot!  Bring it on!

    • 124 posts
    June 2, 2020 2:41 PM PDT

    For me, the worst game mechanic in any MMO I've played (and I started in Ultima Online) was buffs having no timers, or range in Dark Age of Camelot.

    It spawned 'Buff bots' which were, in short, a healer / cleric class at max level with full specialization in their main spell line which contained the most powerful buffs.

    These characters would be on a second account, they would remain in an area that they could not be attacked (DAoC was a PvP / Realm vs Realm game) and they would be used to buff the players' main character to an insanely powerful state when compared to another player of equal level, without the buffs. The lack of buff duration (they never wore off until you, or the character that cast the buffs on you, died, or zoned) and no range (they wouldn't expire if you moved too far away from the character that cast them on you) meant you could head out in a PvP game with a huge advantage compared to many other players that could not afford the luxury of a second account / PC. It made a competitive PvP game highly unbalanced, and you had very little choice but to pay for a second account yourself, simply to be on par with everyone else. Mythic never addressed the issue because it created so much additional revenue for them by means of multiple subscriptions from individual players.

    It was so simple to fix, yet it created some of the most frustrating expereicnes I've ever had an any MMO.

    Hand down, the worst mechanic I've experienced.

    • 124 posts
    June 2, 2020 2:55 PM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    I want to add another one - voice chat.  I know this is a contraversial one and I'm guessing I'm the minority but I get to post my opinion :)  
    I don't like voice chat because I want to hear what the game designeers want me to hear, not other players voices, or the music they're listening to, or their dog barking.  I enjoy the in-game music and sound effects.  I have quit playing games because voice chat was the norm, and I quit raids in WoW whenever the raid leader said it was a requirement.  There ya have it :)

    I've got to be honest and say I agree with this fully. I'll have a mic, I'll chat to my guild when it's essential to do so, I'll use it during raids (if need be) but I'll be avoiding it like the plague on every other occasion. I don't know why, it just destroys the immersion of an MMO for me, it really does.

    It's that sense of relentless uncomfortable silence that everyone feels obligated to fill with 'noise'. You go AFK and you miss everything that was said in the time you were away, but communicating via text allows you to 'catch up' with the group chat upon your return.


    This post was edited by Shadowbound at June 2, 2020 2:59 PM PDT
    • 287 posts
    June 2, 2020 3:37 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - What was the worst game mechanic you've had experience with and why was it so bad? #MMOPRG#CommunityMatters

    The unbalanced, dare I say unfair, mechanic where by casters suffered extraordinarily higher resists rates (meaning decreased efficiency and efficacy) when facing NPCs of equal or higher level than the player.  Melee suffered far less from this with some classes experiencing nearly zero decreases in efficiency.  What this meant was that, on raids specifically, caster DPS was less valued than melee DPS. Why have 4 wizards who get full resist after resist after resist, then are out of mana, when you can have far higher efficiency from rogues who can keep attacking ad infinitum? 

    What I've seen in the Pantheon streams shows this is again rearing its ugly head.

     

    Ugh, yes.  What a refreshing thing it would be to play a game where casters are competitive with melee.  Melee endurance, if there is such a thing at all, is never an issue.  Even if they run out of it they can still autoattack and defend themselves.  Casters, when they run out of mana, are utterly defenseless.  To make these two anywhere close to equivalent most caster abilities, especially defensive spells, would have to no longer consume mana and mana regen should be at least as quick as melee endurance regen.

    The whole resist+resist+resist thing is garbage, too.  If a melee character can hit Mob X 9 times out of 10 then a caster of equal level should, too.  Fizzle + resist was always far worse than miss + dodge + parry.  Then there's the long cast times versus instant melee strikes... more garbage.

    Being a caster should not be so costly, especially if their dps is meant to be on par with melee.  If all of those costs must remain then they should be dramatically higher dps than melee.

    • 810 posts
    June 2, 2020 5:35 PM PDT

    Pick two: DPS is equal, classes are unique, fights are more than tank and spanks.  

     

     

    • 238 posts
    June 2, 2020 10:34 PM PDT

    I have several

    I hate really long and badly designed grinds. Grinding is a part of MMOs whether or not that be character/gear progression, professions, reputations, skill up.... etc, and as such it is unavoidable. However, I never thought that they could get to a point of grotesque absurdity until I encountered the azurite system in WoW's latest expansion. I have never encountered a worse system or a system that comes close in the 21 years that I have been gaming. Nor have I ever seen a system require so many bandaid fixes to make it semi function and tolerable. To give a general idea of what this system is you have a neck and it has levels, then you have 3 pieces of gear (head, shoulder and chest) which had traits that had to be unlocked based on the neck level. Well, the issue was that when you got a better head, shoulder, or chest you had to have the appropriate neck level otherwise they were useless and you had to grind out neck levels before using those items. I won't even go into traits on the gear themselves because most of them required character simulation to figure out if they were useful and none of them were clear in terms of their overall value. Then to bandaid this system they added essences which turned out to be another massive grind fest.  This is probably the worst overall system that I've ever dealt with. 

    General mechanic wise instant death and harsh enrage times have never been fun and tend to lead to frustrations among group members. These tend to promote elite mentality and put more emphasis on performance, rotation, and numbers generation than playing with other individuals. I'm not advocating for non-challenging gameplay, but I don't want it to be a situation of one person dies/screws up and it's a wipe because the DPS isn't there to beat the enrage.  

    Boss mechanic wise- I think one of the worst was Heroic Blackfuse in WoW. 2 players had to go up onto a moving conveyor belt and burst down machine parts while dodging flames that would one-shot them. The issue with this is that if they weren't able to kill the parts it was more or less a guaranteed wipe. 

    The Eye of Anzu in Hellfire citadel was also irritating. Everything revolved around this one item called the Eye of Anzu and only one person could hold the eye at one time.  The eye had to be passed to players who were affected with a debuff that would blow them off, to healers so they could dispel a debuff with a 5-second window that would kill the affected target instantly, to the tanks so they didn't get one-shot by the boss. There was also a ramping debuff associated with the eye so the longer you kept it (not that you wanted to) the more damage you would take to the point of killing you. It was pure chaos and the answer to dealing with this chaos was, of course, an addon that would instantly throw the eye to the person selected as well as show who had the debuffs.  Basically, to do anything in this fight the player required this eye and any miss communication could easily have lead to a wipe.

    This next one isn't related to combat, or player progression in any way. Tera online did a political system that allowed players to vote for guilds and these guilds would gain power and be able to control taxes and certain aspects within a zone. It was great in theory until you realized that it was nothing more than a popularity contest with the bigger guilds controlling almost everything and even creating sub guilds to support and reinforce their control. This only became an issue when they started tieing in collectables with being elected. 

    On the same note as TERA they implemented a collection limit to gathered resources in an attempt to stop bots from farming and selling gold I assume. This really hurt the overall feel of professions and made the system a nuisance to participate in. 

    GW2- the complete lack of a trinity system (initially) and attempt to move into a completely solo self-reliant healing style was pretty bad. Honestly, it was the major factor in driving me away from that game.

    The Light Well ability form WoW, the mystic's orbs from TERA, and basically any other heal that requires a player to physically ineract with it are all bad. These spells are great in design principal and amazing in concept, but at the end of the day if a player requires the self-autonomy to use it... its bad. I have never seen such aversion to clicking on something like I did when the light well was in its prime era. It just goes to show that you can give the player base an extremely powerful and cost-efficient heal that is probably the best in the game. but requiring them to self-govern and use it quickly makes these types of spells useless and irrelevant. 

    • 255 posts
    June 2, 2020 10:46 PM PDT

    Telegraphing moves by a mob. Showing where an AOE is going to affect. etc

    • 1479 posts
    June 2, 2020 10:53 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    I would love that because I would exploit the every living **** out of that.  Trolling groups nonstop by just standing around attacking their mobs, keeping low enough on the hate list to not pull aggro yet high enough to get decent XP and a shot at the loot!  Bring it on!

     

    Meanwhile spell resistance is unfair.

     

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    • 2756 posts
    June 3, 2020 2:59 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    disposalist said:

    Beefcake said:

    FTE, MDD, and other methods for determining who gets credit for a kill. Sadly, they all can be abused and all end up angering whoever didn't win. Or, even worse, when someone else is fighting a mob and all you have to do is tag it to get credit. Then, you can just go and tag each mob others are fighting with little or no risk and level up.

    One thing that would make it more fair is to have credit for the damage you did. Did 49%? You get 49% of the XP and 49% chance at the loot. Did 0.01%? Then you get next-to-nothing. Maybe weight the % somewhat if you were the first to engage. Maybe weight it somewhat if you are nearer the appropriate level for the content.

    I would love that because I would exploit the every living **** out of that.  Trolling groups nonstop by just standing around attacking their mobs, keeping low enough on the hate list to not pull aggro yet high enough to get decent XP and a shot at the loot!  Bring it on!

    Lol, yes, my thought-up-in-30-seconds solution is exploitable. But so are the others and in ways that aren't even helpful.

    Maybe MDD or FTE *are* the best possible solutions. I doubt it though. I hope VR can innovate in this area.

    • 2756 posts
    June 3, 2020 3:21 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    disposalist said:

    Nandor said:- 3rd person view (i know people will hate me for this. And i can see their points. its really confortable and has to big advantages to not use it (looking around corners, seeing better where voids are, looking behind your char, etc - but for me 1st view is so much more immersive).

    Not hating and not 'disagreeing' since no one can disagree with how *you* feel about something, but I have to say I feel differently about first person.

    1st person feeling more immersive is totally a subjective thing. To me, it often feels *less* immersive: horrible and claustrophobic, like you are wearing blinkers or have tunnel vision. You don't see your body how you should (and infact, if you do, it looks weird anyway) and you are totally unaware of things going on around you that, in reality with peripheral vision and your other senses accurately represented, you would totally be aware of.

    Gotta put my hat in with 1st person being by far the best, but only works when there is no third person (too disadvantagous to lose extra information). I don't feel first person is like wearing blinders, tunnel vision, or at all claustrophobic (especially with many first person games having FoV sliders). If that were the case I imagine every FPS game would feel awful and long ago would have made third person the norm. 

    Far more engaging to me in first person, everything has a deeper or more meaningful feel. Turning corners in dungeons, being aware of footing on bridges/ledges or looking over cliffs, keeping track of the creature(s) chasing you, and otherwise just traveling through the world is a more involved and thoughtful. 

    Again, not to say "you are wrong", because it's very much subjective and how you feel about it is how you feel, but, using FoV sliders adds in some information, but makes it feel even more unnatural, like you have the eyes of a fish. In Battlefield, I have my FoV set quite high (for an FPS) to 90 degrees, and that feels ok, but is nowhere near 'normal' peripheral vision and has a disadvantage, especially in an FPS, that things look further away (so aiming is harder), so I have it so that looking down the sights zooms in to a lower FoV. This kinda feels natural, because, if you've used a rifle you'd know, that looking down the sights does kinda consentrate your attention so much it feels like you are giving yourself tunnel vision and it actually helps your aim, though it reduces your attention to peripheral vision.

    Also, as I suggested earlier, the unnatural low FoV suits situations where the tension and pace is high. An FPS feels ok to have that claustrophobic view. So, yeah, an FPS suits 1st person view. But for a slower paced MMORPG (especially one aiming to get back to old school pace), not so much.

    Again, for me, the examples you give of good use of 1st person are examples of when it feels bad to me.

    Turning corners in a dungeon: It makes no sense to me that you have to perform the potentially deadly move of actually walking out around a corner and turning your whole body when creeping around a dangerous dungeon. You would just take a quick peek without exposing yourself. In FPSs these days, the corner peek has been developed for exactly this reason, that it was so weird and unnatural to run around a corner and back, or perform a sideways strafe back and forth, just to check a dangerous new route.

    Keeping track of the creature chasing you: In first person you would have to literally turn around and briefly run backwards in order to get a glimpse of what is chasing you, whereas what would be natural is to swing your upper body and look over your shoulder. Not to mention if there was a massive orc chasing you, you would be hearing its laboured breath and even feeling its pounding footfalls, something very unlikely to be modelled even with modern tech, and a third person view gives an adequate analogy by allowing you to view a little way behind you when running or requiring you to swing your direction only a little to get a look behind.

    Like I said, I'm not saying you are wrong, because you're not and I actually agree that in some situations 1st person view does feel better and is worth the weirdness for the immersion, but I maintain that in a lot of situations it doesn't feel more natural at all, not for me, anyway.

    I find it an interesting subject and doing a little Googling, apparently it's a greatly studied subject.