Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Tanking in PVP

    • 839 posts
    March 13, 2020 7:58 PM PDT

    Is there a way to make taunt a useful tool in PVP.  For instance is it viable / possible in PVP that  getting hit with Taunt forces your offensive target to be on the tank that taunted you for x seconds and you can’t click off them till it expires or they die?

    Maybe its been tried and failed before in an other game, i'm sure there is a obvious problem i'm missing, but I have always wondered.

    Edit: Talking about group PVP really, allowing a Tank to perform some tank duties in PVP, not just be ignored till the end as you kill the more dangerous low hp, low mitigation targets quickly


    This post was edited by Hokanu at March 14, 2020 1:36 AM PDT
    • 144 posts
    March 13, 2020 8:00 PM PDT

    I can't speak for the Dev's...but I think you could count on taunt/aggro working in PvP. EQ2 tanks had a pretty good, functional taunt that worked in pvp; could use improvement but it worked well. 

    However, I'm almost certain we will not see pvp at launch. Right now they have stated that it's "iffy" if pvp is in at launch. I suspect they will have the game fully fleshed out at launch, and then release pvp a year or so after launch. 

    • 839 posts
    March 13, 2020 8:10 PM PDT

    Hoiyay said:

    I can't speak for the Dev's...but I think you could count on taunt/aggro working in PvP. EQ2 tanks had a pretty good, functional taunt that worked in pvp; could use improvement but it worked well. 

    However, I'm almost certain we will not see pvp at launch. Right now they have stated that it's "iffy" if pvp is in at launch. I suspect they will have the game fully fleshed out at launch, and then release pvp a year or so after launch. 

    Oh, interesting! I'll have a look into EQ2 pvp taunting.  Didnt get into it back in the day. Cheers Hoiyay!

    • 159 posts
    March 13, 2020 8:11 PM PDT

    Hoiyay said:

    However, I'm almost certain we will not see pvp at launch. Right now they have stated that it's "iffy" if pvp is in at launch. I suspect they will have the game fully fleshed out at launch, and then release pvp a year or so after launch. 

     

    Where the heck are you getting this? Did I miss something?

    The FAQ (woefully outdated I suppose) says "we will definitely launch with at least one player vs. player shard"

    Any message from the VR team has always been to the effect of: PvP is important for us, just not a priority until the PvE foundation / core game is there.

     


    This post was edited by Kass at March 13, 2020 8:12 PM PDT
    • 159 posts
    March 13, 2020 8:14 PM PDT

    Hokanu said:

    Is there a way to make taunt a useful tool in PVP.  For instance is it viable / possible in PVP that  getting hit with Taunt forces your offensive target to be on the tank that taunted you for x seconds and you can’t click off them till it expires or they die?

    Maybe its been tried and failed before in an other game, i'm sure there is a obvious problem i'm missing, but I have always wondered.

    Not sure what games have done it, but it shouldn't be difficult ( like i know? lol - shoulnd't be any more difficult than any other charm effect I would imagine)

    I would like to see a taunt force an enemy to slowly move toward the Tank and auto attack when in range until the duration is over. I would imagine the duration may have to be adjusted in PvP so it's not too OP.

    • 839 posts
    March 13, 2020 8:39 PM PDT

    Kass said:

    Hokanu said:

    Is there a way to make taunt a useful tool in PVP.  For instance is it viable / possible in PVP that  getting hit with Taunt forces your offensive target to be on the tank that taunted you for x seconds and you can’t click off them till it expires or they die?

    Maybe its been tried and failed before in an other game, i'm sure there is a obvious problem i'm missing, but I have always wondered.

    Not sure what games have done it, but it shouldn't be difficult ( like i know? lol - shoulnd't be any more difficult than any other charm effect I would imagine)

    I would like to see a taunt force an enemy to slowly move toward the Tank and auto attack when in range until the duration is over. I would imagine the duration may have to be adjusted in PvP so it's not too OP.

    Forced movement is interesting, if any abilities require no movement to cast, then this ability becomes dangerously OP, but if you can cast while moving then it isnt that big of a deal.  I was thinking by just having a forced target, you can still make choices about running away, the downside of not engaging the tank while taunted is no DPS for the duration of the ability. 

     

    • 159 posts
    March 13, 2020 9:59 PM PDT

    Hokanu said:

    Kass said:

    Hokanu said:

    Is there a way to make taunt a useful tool in PVP.  For instance is it viable / possible in PVP that  getting hit with Taunt forces your offensive target to be on the tank that taunted you for x seconds and you can’t click off them till it expires or they die?

    Maybe its been tried and failed before in an other game, i'm sure there is a obvious problem i'm missing, but I have always wondered.

    Not sure what games have done it, but it shouldn't be difficult ( like i know? lol - shoulnd't be any more difficult than any other charm effect I would imagine)

    I would like to see a taunt force an enemy to slowly move toward the Tank and auto attack when in range until the duration is over. I would imagine the duration may have to be adjusted in PvP so it's not too OP.

    Forced movement is interesting, if any abilities require no movement to cast, then this ability becomes dangerously OP, but if you can cast while moving then it isnt that big of a deal.  I was thinking by just having a forced target, you can still make choices about running away, the downside of not engaging the tank while taunted is no DPS for the duration of the ability. 

     

     

    Oh. I thought it was understood that the player can't cast anything for the duration. Maybe it doesn't innerupt the current cast if there is one, but at least can't cast new spells.

    • 159 posts
    March 13, 2020 10:00 PM PDT

    Another idea would just be a buff / debuff. Whatever you taunt gets reduced defenses for a short period of time, but also gets increased damage vs the player that taunted them.

    • 521 posts
    March 14, 2020 12:47 AM PDT

    Wouldn't the idea of PVP (Player VS Player) be about player skill. Ability’s removing control from the player loses the involvement of player even if only in small durations, and thereby not PVP anymore.

    • 839 posts
    March 14, 2020 1:35 AM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    Wouldn't the idea of PVP (Player VS Player) be about player skill. Ability’s removing control from the player loses the involvement of player even if only in small durations, and thereby not PVP anymore.

    Well assumably Mez is in pvp to an extent which removes control of a player too.  A tank that can force targets can actually play an effective role in PVP besides just being moved around and ignored.

    I guess I should have clarified I am really talking about group PVP, 6v6 or whatever.  I'll add that to the OP

    I just figure that poor ol tanks in a group centric game like Pantheon will be bringing their high HP/mitigation with low dps that anyone in a 6v6 would just bypass wasting their dps on till the other group members are dead, the opposite of a tanks role being the meat shield, not the leave till last shield.  So i figure if you could force a opponet to target the tank for x duration then they are able to fulfil their role a bit more of directing dps into their own best asset (mitigation / hp)

    Otherwise who would bother taking a tank along, their biggest asset is taunt and mitigation, i feel like there might be an opportunity to let tanks shine in pvp.  

    The choice is for the person who has been taunted, to either go in hard and use the duration of the taunt to hammer the tank as much as possible till they can choose another target again or else back out and stear clear of the fight till they have their target control back. 

    Taunting a ranged attacker and throw up some heavy defence while they start dropping bombs on you being forced to ignore your glass canons in the group, but maybe thats the Tanks trap...

    "whoops wizzie...did you just waste a chunk of mana on our tank?...  Well now your in strife" :)

    I can imagine a tank busting through in at the beginning of a fight to try and lock the Enchanter's target on them so the 1st control spell is on the tank and not a dps dealer or healer.

    • 2756 posts
    March 14, 2020 6:01 AM PDT

    I can't imagine it would take any appreciable effort to add a PvP server or two and simply flick a switch to have players be effected by others.

    I suppose it might be more complicated to force things like taunt to work, but it could be done, I suppose, by forcing that players target to stick for a while.  Could even make it work like a Charm spell and have the player lose control briefly forcing the attack on the taunting player.

    VR have kinda promised the focus will be PvE, though, and to be honest, I hope they don't spend too much time on PvP stuff, sorry PvP fans.

    Would be great if they can enable that stuff without too much work though.

    Fingers crossed for you!

    • 3852 posts
    March 14, 2020 7:05 AM PDT

    ((Wouldn't the idea of PVP (Player VS Player) be about player skill. Ability’s removing control from the player loses the involvement of player even if only in small durations, and thereby not PVP anymore.))

     

    Isn't the idea of pve (player versus the environment) be about player skill also. Mob abilities like stun or mez or disarm even if only in small durations loses the player involvement and thereby is not pve anymore.

    • 1479 posts
    March 14, 2020 7:42 AM PDT

    In SWTOR, the taunt in PVP acted like a debuff reducing damage done by your target by 30% unless they attacked you. It made the skill exceptionnal to protect focused targets (healers, objective carryers) but also implied some drawback if you  were to be taken as a focus you would still be killable with no penality.

    • 521 posts
    March 14, 2020 1:06 PM PDT

    dorotea said:

    ((Wouldn't the idea of PVP (Player VS Player) be about player skill. Ability’s removing control from the player loses the involvement of player even if only in small durations, and thereby not PVP anymore.))

     

    Isn't the idea of pve (player versus the environment) be about player skill also. Mob abilities like stun or mez or disarm even if only in small durations loses the player involvement and thereby is not pve anymore.

     

    PVE is traditionally not about players skill, its about characters skill and I’m talking about its roots,(pen n paper). However when it moved to PC then Yes, to a degree player skill is involved, but PVP has a greater focus on it, (IE Vertical progression vs Horizontal progression).

    • 2000 posts
    March 14, 2020 2:09 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

     PVE is traditionally not about players skill, its about characters skill and I’m talking about its roots,(pen n paper). However when it moved to PC then Yes, to a degree player skill is involved, but PVP has a greater focus on it, (IE Vertical progression vs Horizontal progression).

    Your statement as highlighted seems to me to be a complete dismissal of the concept & value of players' skills. I really hope I'm missing something in your intent.

    • 521 posts
    March 14, 2020 2:22 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    HemlockReaper said:

     PVE is traditionally not about players skill, its about characters skill and I’m talking about its roots,(pen n paper). However when it moved to PC then Yes, to a degree player skill is involved, but PVP has a greater focus on it, (IE Vertical progression vs Horizontal progression).

    Your statement as highlighted seems to me to be a complete dismissal of the concept & value of players' skills. I really hope I'm missing something in your intent.

    You must not be familiar with the origins of the modern MMO, or what the phrase “pen n paper” means. Success or failure determined by dice rolls, not twitch ability.

    Wikipedia:
    “The history of massively multiplayer online games spans over thirty years and hundreds of massively multiplayer online games (MMOG) titles. The origin and influence on MMO games stems from MUDs, Dungeons & Dragons and earlier social games”


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabletop_role-playing_game

    • 2000 posts
    March 14, 2020 2:40 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said:

    You must not be familiar with the origins of the modern MMO, or what the phrase “pen n paper” means. Success or failure determined by dice rolls, not twitch ability.

    Wikipedia:
    “The history of massively multiplayer online games spans over thirty years and hundreds of massively multiplayer online games (MMOG) titles. The origin and influence on MMO games stems from MUDs, Dungeons & Dragons and earlier social games”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabletop_role-playing_game

    Wow. I sure was wrong in thinking I might learn something from asking you a question. Instead I get my question dismissed as ignorance about the subject. No problem, lesson learned. I won't bother you with 'ignorant questions' again. I'll just go play with my old D&D dice set.

    Have a nice day.

    • 521 posts
    March 14, 2020 3:18 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    HemlockReaper said:

    You must not be familiar with the origins of the modern MMO, or what the phrase “pen n paper” means. Success or failure determined by dice rolls, not twitch ability.

    Wikipedia:
    “The history of massively multiplayer online games spans over thirty years and hundreds of massively multiplayer online games (MMOG) titles. The origin and influence on MMO games stems from MUDs, Dungeons & Dragons and earlier social games”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabletop_role-playing_game

    Wow. I sure was wrong in thinking I might learn something from asking you a question. Instead I get my question dismissed as ignorance about the subject. No problem, lesson learned. I won't bother you with 'ignorant questions' again. I'll just go play with my old D&D dice set.

    Have a nice day.

     

    You highlighted a portion of my statement, and stated “complete dismissal of the concept & value of players' skills” while leaving out the part where I specifically indicated I was referring to old school pen n paper as not having player skill.

    You also skimmed over the part where I said, “However when it moved to PC then Yes, to a degree player skill is involved”.

    I find in difficult to believe anyone who’s played old school D&D would believe player skill is involved, unless you believe player skills includes strategy, but maybe you do.

    Strategy could arguably be part of player skills, but Twitch skills IE, Hand eye coordinations skills, have traditionally been what is refereed to as player skills, in my experience.

    So I’m generally against taking player control away in a PVP situation since it removes the one thing that to me is pretty exclusive to PVP, and that’s active player control determining outcomes, VS dice Rolls.

    • 2000 posts
    March 14, 2020 5:24 PM PDT

    HemlockReaper said: You highlighted a portion of my statement, and stated “complete dismissal of the concept & value of players' skills” while leaving out the part where I specifically indicated I was referring to old school pen n paper as not having player skill.

    As contrasted to you highlighting one part of my statement and leaving out "seems to me"  and "I really hope I'm missing something in your intent"? I find in difficult to believe anyone who’s posted on these forums as much you have would believe my comment was an attack on their opinion and not a request for clarification.

    HemlockReaper said: I find in difficult to believe anyone who’s played old school D&D would believe player skill is involved

    Both I and this wiki article that you conveniently linked believe it. Try reading the 3rd sentence of the article. (F.Y.I. improvisation is a skill) and yes, I believe strategy is a skill as well.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabletop_role-playing_game

     

    The rest of what you said would have made a perfectly reasonable, FIRST answer to what I asked.

     

    • 2756 posts
    March 14, 2020 5:26 PM PDT

    Aside from the semantics about "player skill" (personally, I find twitch skills unimpressive compared to tactical skills even in totally PvP focused games like multi-player FPSs) I think to change the abilities of the character to do something very different in order to 'fit' PvP is a bit of a 'cheat'.

    Taunt should taunt. Charm should charm. Maybe tone it down a bit if it is totally imbalancing, but why should it work differently on a PC in PvP than it does an NPC in PvE?

    Losing control of your character to a taunt of a charm or fear or whatever is something your non-twitch skills will have to mitigate, is all.

    *shrug* Then again, I'm not a fan of PvP anyway, but if it changed the feel and function of the class I play, I'd like it even less.

    • 521 posts
    March 14, 2020 6:23 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    HemlockReaper said: You highlighted a portion of my statement, and stated “complete dismissal of the concept & value of players' skills” while leaving out the part where I specifically indicated I was referring to old school pen n paper as not having player skill.

    As contrasted to you highlighting one part of my statement and leaving out "seems to me"  and "I really hope I'm missing something in your intent"? I find in difficult to believe anyone who’s posted on these forums as much you have would believe my comment was an attack on their opinion and not a request for clarification.

    HemlockReaper said: I find in difficult to believe anyone who’s played old school D&D would believe player skill is involved

    Both I and this wiki article that you conveniently linked believe it. Try reading the 3rd sentence of the article. (F.Y.I. improvisation is a skill) and yes, I believe strategy is a skill as well.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabletop_role-playing_game

     

    The rest of what you said would have made a perfectly reasonable, FIRST answer to what I asked.

     

     

    Improvisation and other “skills” not related to the Players had eye coordination are not the same.

    In both standard Table top, and most PVE on Pc your dealing with Dice Rolls determining the outcomes, either literal dice rolls on Table Top, or behind the scenes on PC.

    Your choice as a player to cast or not to cast magic missile may be a skill, but the outcome is determined by very different mechanisms. True PVP, in my opinion includes Timing, and Hand eye coordination against another players, and not solely luck of the dice for the Hit/miss/Dodge.

    So I feel removing that element takes away from the intent of PVP.

    • 1428 posts
    March 15, 2020 4:14 AM PDT

    tanks should still fulfill the same role in pvp as in pve. theme outlined here is: manage threat, take damage and soft crowd control.

    this still makes hard cc classes still in contention with tanks at controlling encounters at the cost of being a squishy class.  tradeoffs right?

     

    *DISCLAIMER NUMBERS CAN BE ADJUSTED THIS IS JUST AN IDEA*

     

    looking at taunt as a spell, it's usually an on demand aggro tool medium range for pve that forces a target to attack the tank.

     

    1.  the damage debuff idea is not bad in swotr, but it was poorly designed. instead of being a 30% debuff for 6 secs, it should function as a diminishing debuff that lasts for 10 secs 100% damage reduced debuff... wait wait it sounds op but for each second the debuff falls off 10%.  if the target does damage to the tank, the debuff instantly falls off and the damage taken is increased by half the damage % reduction(so if the debuff is at 50% reduction, the tank takes a bonus 25% extra damage).

     

    2.  the target the tank taunts is locked on to the tank for 3 secs.   defense targets can be selected.  the tricky part about this and why many mmos can't do this is engine limitations can't force target of the player.  i don't know if vr targeting system would be sophisticated or possible to force target lock.

     

     

    3.  taunting redirects damage to the tank taking extra damage(similar to wow warrior redirecting damage -intervene-, however, functions as a debuff on the offensive target)

     

    4.  taunting can function as a hard cc that can force to the target to run towards the tank for 6 secs and begins auto attack if in range.  if the target takes damage the cc is broken.  this doesn't work in many mmos because force directional movement is also an engine limitation.

     

    this could function for each type of tank.  like the warrior would get the idiot running at him(4), the dire knight gets option 3, paladin 2, maybe monk gets 1?

     

    now for there to be some form of 'skill' expression these keybinds can't exist: macro targeting, target of target, target of party member, target last target. target next target, target previous target, target closest target.  target furthest target.  lists of targets also.  targeting is solely dependent on mouse selection.  a degree of 'click accuracy' becomes important and puts a tax on apm.

     

    this is straying a bit here:

    there's alot of other things that happen in high level group pvp for mmos.  it's mind games, setups and teamwork with emphasis on decision making.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iY2bXwuSt4

    there is a huge amount of timing and hand eye coordination that happens here.  to play at that level requires about 180+ effective apm.