EIther you have it/they have it, or you don't / they don't.
Pick your scenario, you have the outcome.
The variables are extremely simple (binary) and the scope extremely narrow.
The group requires a specific ability/spell to counter a disposition on one of their 8 active hotbar slots.
If you don't have the abilityspell to counter the disposition, someone dies, or you all die.
That's the typical scenario, right? So far, dispositions spawn and respawn randomly.
Some bosses will be multi-disposition. You can't know the disposition before hand.
While adventuring, the party will be required to enter combat or be in combat before a disposition spawns.
So, how does the LAS permit you to work together as a team to overcome that obstacle?
No-one has the ability required to counter the disposition on their hotbar.
No-one can change their hotbar abilities, because everyone is in combat.
As you can't counter the disposition with the LAS, someone will die.
So no perfect counter to a disposition equals "failure & death"?
Could you give me an example, please?
Edit:
vjek said:While adventuring, the party will be required to enter combat or be in combat before a disposition spawns.
I apologize, I wasn't aware this had been locked in and must have missed this announcement. Do you also have a link to where I can find this information? Thank you! :)
vjek said:EIther you have it/they have it, or you don't / they don't.
Pick your scenario, you have the outcome.
The variables are extremely simple (binary) and the scope extremely narrow.
The group requires a specific ability/spell to counter a disposition on one of their 8 active hotbar slots.
If you don't have the abilityspell to counter the disposition, someone dies, or you all die.
That's the typical scenario, right? So far, dispositions spawn and respawn randomly.
Some bosses will be multi-disposition. You can't know the disposition before hand.
While adventuring, the party will be required to enter combat or be in combat before a disposition spawns.
So, how does the LAS permit you to work together as a team to overcome that obstacle?
No-one has the ability required to counter the disposition on their hotbar.
No-one can change their hotbar abilities, because everyone is in combat.
As you can't counter the disposition with the LAS, someone will die.
LOL, I get it. What you're saying is you want to fight frogloks in Guk without anybody in the group needing to have the forsight to have a snare or root loaded,
Seems easy enough fix, find a smarter group. Choices need to matter.
Zorkon said:vjek said:EIther you have it/they have it, or you don't / they don't.
Pick your scenario, you have the outcome.
The variables are extremely simple (binary) and the scope extremely narrow.
The group requires a specific ability/spell to counter a disposition on one of their 8 active hotbar slots.
If you don't have the abilityspell to counter the disposition, someone dies, or you all die.
That's the typical scenario, right? So far, dispositions spawn and respawn randomly.
Some bosses will be multi-disposition. You can't know the disposition before hand.
While adventuring, the party will be required to enter combat or be in combat before a disposition spawns.
So, how does the LAS permit you to work together as a team to overcome that obstacle?
No-one has the ability required to counter the disposition on their hotbar.
No-one can change their hotbar abilities, because everyone is in combat.
As you can't counter the disposition with the LAS, someone will die.LOL, I get it. What you're saying is you want to fight frogloks in Guk without anybody in the group needing to have the forsight to have a snare or root loaded,
Seems easy enough fix, find a smarter group. Choices need to matter.
Whilst vjek's example is somewhat extreme (to make the point) and, yes, I don't think disposaitions work quite like that, I believe an example to be worried about would be like, when fighting Frogloks in Guk, you *do* choose to take Snare and Root and then a respawn adds to the fight that happens to be a Poisonous (disposition) Froglok and you wipe because no one memmed Cure Poison and the tank goes down.
Then you come back and someone mems Cure Poison and you never get another Poisonous Froglok all night, so they are annoyed they were effectively using a 7 LAS instead of 8. And, in fact, there are probably lots of possible dispositions and different monsters, such that, if you take the 30 minutes to coordinate everyone's hotbars to make sure everything is covered, you are probably left with everyone effectively having a 5 or 6 LAS?
Whilst it is perhaps disingenuous to suggest that not memming a counter to a disposition would definitely cause disaster, the point really is, is it 'fun' or 'tactical' to get surprised by a disposition or add to an encounter that needs a counter skill you simply don't have memmed? Or does it just mean that there is something more annoying about that encounter because something you know how to do and you know would help you simply can't do because... [artificial LAS mechanic]?
And whilst it doesn't mean regular certain death, doesn't it mean that encounters can't be as well or as consistently balanced to be challenging because if you balance assuming *non* ideal LAS skill choices, a party with the right choices will find it easy, but if you balance for *ideal* LAS skill choices, a party without them will constantly struggle with frustration, get killed a lot and learn to fear/avoid anything unpredictable or new?
Zorkon said:What you're saying is you want to fight frogloks in Guk without anybody in the group needing to have the forsight to have a snare or root loaded,
Ahh, Ok Zorkon I've edited the message slightly to get to the point I'm looking to make here as well. Also Vjek, I wasn't sure if you were willing to look up an example so I'll use this one by Zorkon to theory craft a little. Hopefully, that is ok.
I believe the saying "Choices matter" is very important is as well. Additionally, there is a communication need here. I know to some this type of communication sounds strange as so many games are built in a way were communication about abilities only happens post-fight. What I mean is the only time people communicate about abilities is when they are "asking" others after the encounter - "Why didn't you use this?". I'm excited to see this system encourage the conversation while preparing for the encounter as well.
So let's use two dispositions as examples: "Alarmist" and "Deranged"
Alarmist - Seen in a 2017 T Stream. (link - https://youtu.be/y0F228Rkhxk?t=1287)
- NPC immediately turns to run and seek help from nearby NPCs
Deranged - (link - https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_march_behind_the_design/)
- Is immune to Stun, Mesmerize, and other disorienting effects.
- Will attempt to flee at unpredictable times and in erratic ways.
So both of these dispositions have a "flee" mechanic in them. The deranged however will not only flee but is also resistant to a multitude of CC effects. So let's assume we are about to go into an area known to have 1 or both of these dispositions present. Knowing this I'll stop my group before heading into the area and start the conversation.
"Hey team, so the two main dispositions we need to watch for will be Alarmist and Deranged. Let's make sure we focus deranged Npc's first and if they run (looks at group) summoner could you ensure you have your Titan Pet out for roots on fleeing deranged?"
Summoner - "Got it, but know my CD on the root is a little lengthy so might be good to have a back up as well"
"Good call, in that case, we will pull it back into this corner than and have the Ranger set a trap at the exit if they start to run hopefully minimizing the risk is of them running out. Warrior make sure you use "Conquest" when NPC is fleeing to increase our DPS so we can burn it down to get it out of the way asap. These are the priority dispositions in this area due to the tight space we have to work with. Everyone understand?"Summoner - "Hey Rogue, be aware we might run into some Cunning NPCs as well. Just be careful about scouting ahead as we make our way to our spot."
Rogue - "You bet!"
... But what if we don't have root or snare? -- Then the conversation would go like this...
"Ok team we got Alarmist and Deranged NPCs in the area ahead. If we hit an alarmist we will have Monk FD to split pull and if that fails we need to get CCs out as fast as possible, but remember Deranged can't be CC'd so they are the priority. Due to our lack of root / snare we are going to avoid the deep caves and stay in the main hall so we can pull them to a safer area if they flee. Also Cleric your main heal and Shaman you on slows and debuffs, but make sure you got mana and heals ready just in case we get adds. If we do get add's Tank bring the adds back to camp, so we can CC them in a safer spot. DPS stay focused on Deranged till dead. Shaman stay with DPS and Cleric stay with tank so we have heals for all as able."
Also sometimes you just won't know what you don't know, but that is when you look at your surroundings. How much space you have to work with, what group comp you have, and identify your highest risks as well as potential ways to solve for them. :)
Well, that was a nice chat with myself haha but it all goes back to having a social game where communication has value and meaning.
I've never been more excited about Pantheon combat myself :) - many thanks for the awesome conversations all. Love when the community can come together to have conversations about things in respectable ways.
disposalist said:And whilst it doesn't mean regular certain death, doesn't it mean that encounters can't be as well or as consistently balanced to be challenging because if you balance assuming *non* ideal LAS skill choices, a party with the right choices will find it easy, but if you balance for *ideal* LAS skill choices, a party without them will constantly struggle with frustration, get killed a lot and learn to fear/avoid anything unpredictable or new?
I believe challenge and balance are both highly subjective. :) - Also, I'm super excited to fear the unpredictable and new! Man, that's a long lost feeling I've missed for way too long! Exciting times ahead!
Saicred said:...Well, that was a nice chat with myself haha but it all goes back to having a social game where communication has value and meaning.
I applaud your enthusiasm and I'm not saying I *don't* want a social game - I absolutely do - but I do not want to have to discuss hotbar loudouts for every single pull because the dispositions or even just the monster types are different. Bad enough with voice comms, but imagine it with text!
There are plenty of tactics and other stuff to discuss without having a hotbar loadout discussion every pull.
Never mind all the re-memming UI clicking to do the discussed hotbar adjustments.
And if that *isn't* constantly necessary, then the whole thing isn't impactful enough to bother with, is it?
People get to know what different classes can do. They shouldn't have to discuss hotbar loudouts every single pull because LAS is too restrictive to let classes be reliably capable of what they should be capable.
Yes, it depends how restrictive the LAS turns out to be. I'm hoping either LAS8+6 turns out to be ok, or they end up relaxing it to LAS12+12 or, my ideal, allow some kind of limited/costly casting from Codex or reserve hotbar - an LAS/UAS hybrid like EQ had (but with the annoying spellbook re-memming mechanic made better or innovated around).
Saicred said:disposalist said:And whilst it doesn't mean regular certain death, doesn't it mean that encounters can't be as well or as consistently balanced to be challenging because if you balance assuming *non* ideal LAS skill choices, a party with the right choices will find it easy, but if you balance for *ideal* LAS skill choices, a party without them will constantly struggle with frustration, get killed a lot and learn to fear/avoid anything unpredictable or new?
I believe challenge and balance are both highly subjective. :) - Also, I'm super excited to fear the unpredictable and new! Man, that's a long lost feeling I've missed for way too long! Exciting times ahead!
There's nothing wrong with having a healthy respect, and yes, even fear, for new encounters, but to feel you can't possibly prepare and can't mitigate the situation when you get it wrong without dying is better?
And then you just load the 'right' hotbar and the fear is gone.
If the encounters are balanced to be difficult *even with all you abilities available* THEN you will fear the unknown rather than just know you have to die once working out what ability you didn't have and then come back with that ability memmed.
And, as has been said before, if an encounter is in any way *truly* dynamic (ie. something changes *during* the encounter) then you either prepare for all eventualities (loading abilities you hardly ever use in coordination with the other group members, so limited your LAS to less than 8 even) or you never bother loading the lesser used abilities and may as well not have them.
And I'm repeating myself. Sorry. In summary: There are better ways to increase challenge and the need for comms than reducing skill sets. Yes, if you blindfold yourselves, a football match is more challenging and you'll need to communicate more. Would it be better though?
disposalist said:Zorkon said:vjek said:EIther you have it/they have it, or you don't / they don't.
Pick your scenario, you have the outcome.
The variables are extremely simple (binary) and the scope extremely narrow.
The group requires a specific ability/spell to counter a disposition on one of their 8 active hotbar slots.
If you don't have the abilityspell to counter the disposition, someone dies, or you all die.
That's the typical scenario, right? So far, dispositions spawn and respawn randomly.
Some bosses will be multi-disposition. You can't know the disposition before hand.
While adventuring, the party will be required to enter combat or be in combat before a disposition spawns.
So, how does the LAS permit you to work together as a team to overcome that obstacle?
No-one has the ability required to counter the disposition on their hotbar.
No-one can change their hotbar abilities, because everyone is in combat.
As you can't counter the disposition with the LAS, someone will die.LOL, I get it. What you're saying is you want to fight frogloks in Guk without anybody in the group needing to have the forsight to have a snare or root loaded,
Seems easy enough fix, find a smarter group. Choices need to matter.
Whilst vjek's example is somewhat extreme (to make the point) and, yes, I don't think disposaitions work quite like that, I believe an example to be worried about would be like, when fighting Frogloks in Guk, you *do* choose to take Snare and Root and then a respawn adds to the fight that happens to be a Poisonous (disposition) Froglok and you wipe because no one memmed Cure Poison and the tank goes down.
Then you come back and someone mems Cure Poison and you never get another Poisonous Froglok all night, so they are annoyed they were effectively using a 7 LAS instead of 8. And, in fact, there are probably lots of possible dispositions and different monsters, such that, if you take the 30 minutes to coordinate everyone's hotbars to make sure everything is covered, you are probably left with everyone effectively having a 5 or 6 LAS?
Whilst it is perhaps disingenuous to suggest that not memming a counter to a disposition would definitely cause disaster, the point really is, is it 'fun' or 'tactical' to get surprised by a disposition or add to an encounter that needs a counter skill you simply don't have memmed? Or does it just mean that there is something more annoying about that encounter because something you know how to do and you know would help you simply can't do because... [artificial LAS mechanic]?
And whilst it doesn't mean regular certain death, doesn't it mean that encounters can't be as well or as consistently balanced to be challenging because if you balance assuming *non* ideal LAS skill choices, a party with the right choices will find it easy, but if you balance for *ideal* LAS skill choices, a party without them will constantly struggle with frustration, get killed a lot and learn to fear/avoid anything unpredictable or new?
I don't see how people see if you can't hard counter a disposition it means you instantly fail, if its poinsonous and you dont have cure poison it mean you simply heal more than you usually would, or you CC it before it does poison someone, or a multitude of things that you can try to do to midigate the effectiveness he can do to your group, point being even though you don't hard counter him doesn't mean you die, with 0% of success that just a weird way of looking at it, it just became harder to deal with and you need to improvise or simply muscle through it.
We alrdy watched them badly pull a pack of mobs with a disposition in the mix and clear it, it took a bit of effort, and honestly they didn't even have an enchanter or any kind of CC to midigate the damage that was coming in and went through them just fine for as long it wasn't too big, the only true challenge in that amberfaet stream i actually saw was the mini boss mob that was really spiky, which is meant to be solo pulled, and if you didn't solo pull him than that means you didn't do it right, and if you somehow you get a respawn that means you didn't clear fast enough, which means you are either pushing the limits of your group, or players aren't preforming as well as they could, but has nothing to do with the LAS or UAS
Riahuf22 said:I don't see how people see if you can't hard counter a disposition it means you instantly fail, if its poinsonous and you dont have cure poison it mean you simply heal more than you usually would, or you CC it before it does poison someone, or a multitude of things that you can try to do to midigate the effectiveness he can do to your group, point being even though you don't hard counter him doesn't mean you die, with 0% of success that just a weird way of looking at it, it just became harder to deal with and you need to improvise or simply muscle through it.
We alrdy watched them badly pull a pack of mobs with a disposition in the mix and clear it, it took a bit of effort, and honestly they didn't even have an enchanter or any kind of CC to midigate the damage that was coming in and went through them just fine for as long it wasn't too big, the only true challenge in that amberfaet stream i actually saw was the mini boss mob that was really spiky, which is meant to be solo pulled, and if you didn't solo pull him than that means you didn't do it right, and if you somehow you get a respawn that means you didn't clear fast enough, which means you are either pushing the limits of your group, or players aren't preforming as well as they could, but has nothing to do with the LAS or UAS
Scaling difficulty by taking abilities away from a player, instead of actually making encounters themselves more difficult, is not great design. I fully believe that VR feels they have to use the LAS because they simply do not have the resources to actually balance the content vs the players otherwise. It's not an idictment of their ability, merely an acknowledgement of their limitations.
Keno Monster said:Riahuf22 said:I don't see how people see if you can't hard counter a disposition it means you instantly fail, if its poinsonous and you dont have cure poison it mean you simply heal more than you usually would, or you CC it before it does poison someone, or a multitude of things that you can try to do to midigate the effectiveness he can do to your group, point being even though you don't hard counter him doesn't mean you die, with 0% of success that just a weird way of looking at it, it just became harder to deal with and you need to improvise or simply muscle through it.
We alrdy watched them badly pull a pack of mobs with a disposition in the mix and clear it, it took a bit of effort, and honestly they didn't even have an enchanter or any kind of CC to midigate the damage that was coming in and went through them just fine for as long it wasn't too big, the only true challenge in that amberfaet stream i actually saw was the mini boss mob that was really spiky, which is meant to be solo pulled, and if you didn't solo pull him than that means you didn't do it right, and if you somehow you get a respawn that means you didn't clear fast enough, which means you are either pushing the limits of your group, or players aren't preforming as well as they could, but has nothing to do with the LAS or UAS
Scaling difficulty by taking abilities away from a player, instead of actually making encounters themselves more difficult, is not great design. I fully believe that VR feels they have to use the LAS because they simply do not have the resources to actually balance the content vs the players otherwise. It's not an idictment of their ability, merely an acknowledgement of their limitations.
And i don't se how you think putting all your counters on a hotbar is hard when i could litterally but them all on a hotbar and hold ctrl(for crown control and counter) and push 1,2,3,4,q,e,r, Difficult, but I'm sure you can amaze me.
I do agree with the slower combat pace and working with other people in the community. It will help bring the community together and I hope the current gen of gamers can understand why EQ was so successful, where we all worked as a community and not as solo players who can do it all. I would like that feeling that I cannot do it all by myself and I need others to accomplish goals and share those experances with them.I just don't want this game becomeing what current MMOs have become because of the kids who cry loud enough are being listened to or the weasels that are just on the forums but have not backed the game and are influencing others...
Iksar said:The more limited players are the more limited mobs will be in terms of options available to them and effectiveness of their tricks/tools.
since the game is meant to be group orientated i don't see how that is actually possible when if you have a group of 6 people and have 14 abilities a peice which leads to 84 abilites able to be used against him, how he would be restricted to fight less effectively, when i think UAS cheapens the experince by nothing meaning anything, UAS isnt harder than LAS when you know how to organize your kit, in fact once you learn it and pratice with it everything is honestly cheapened by it and makes the game unable to balance to it, as LAS makes it to where regardless of how good you are you have to depend on your group to succeed, which makes it more of a group orientated game than it would be with UAS.
84 abilities with a ton of overlap. Not 84 unique abilities with unique functions.
Let's be honest, the real reason people want the LAS is because it will coddle them with simplistic gameplay the same way EQ does. Reactionary gameplay is too hard for them. Pressing more than one button every 10 seconds is "button mashing" for them.
Liav said:84 abilities with a ton of overlap. Not 84 unique abilities with unique functions.
Let's be honest, the real reason people want the LAS is because it will coddle them with simplistic gameplay the same way EQ does. Reactionary gameplay is too hard for them. Pressing more than one button every 10 seconds is "button mashing" for them.
and again just becuase you think UAS is hard amazes me, becuase it doesn't do anything at all when you organize your kit and practice it. so trying to prove that UAS throws in some kind of dynamic of difficulty into the game, to me only means, you want to be able to solve any situation possible and not have to rely on your team to succeed, or you don't know how to organize your kit and you let yourself beat you.
Because everyone thinks themself a professional who always knows when to react, how to react, with what to react with, always has the right cooldowns up, always reads every situation well, always has resources to spare to solve any situation.
Complete masters of abilities and usage...yet somehow the vast majority of players in games with even 4 total abilities manage to muck that up when a situation gets tense.
Oldwargoat39 said:I do agree with the slower combat pace and working with other people in the community. It will help bring the community together and I hope the current gen of gamers can understand why EQ was so successful, where we all worked as a community and not as solo players who can do it all. I would like that feeling that I cannot do it all by myself and I need others to accomplish goals and share those experances with them.I just don't want this game becomeing what current MMOs have become because of the kids who cry loud enough are being listened to or the weasels that are just on the forums but have not backed the game and are influencing others...
EQ wasn't true LAS. That's *part* of the point. In EQ you *could* re-mem mid-combat if you really needed something you didn't have going in. Also only casters were restricted anyway.
We are yet to know what Pantheon might allow, though Joppa *hinted* that there may be more ways to get 'out of combat' (and thus have access to you non-combat abilities).
Partly, we just don't know. Partly people want to discuss the implications.
well if you mean if i see an add coming and i want to CC it, i simply CC it, i wouldnt need to be a pro to do that, and if you mean that i could of not have a CC ability to CC with, why would I? If I'm a tank I'm going to have interuppts, stuns, core threat abilties, up at all times and fit in the sitautional pieces where i see fit on the situation im dealing with.
If I'm a healer im going to have a my cures up, and other kinds of ultility that can save my tank or dps in a pinch.
I'm I'm DPS I'm going to have at least one kind of CC if anything to help with situation when they get sticky, like if im a rogue to have smoke and mirrors, becuase maybe just maybe thats what a good player would do, and not just becuase we think we are professionals.
Riahuf22 said:Liav said:84 abilities with a ton of overlap. Not 84 unique abilities with unique functions.
Let's be honest, the real reason people want the LAS is because it will coddle them with simplistic gameplay the same way EQ does. Reactionary gameplay is too hard for them. Pressing more than one button every 10 seconds is "button mashing" for them.
and again just becuase you think UAS is hard amazes me, becuase it doesn't do anything at all when you organize your kit and practice it. so trying to prove that UAS throws in some kind of dynamic of difficulty into the game, to me only means, you want to be able to solve any situation possible and not have to rely on your team to succeed, or you don't know how to organize your kit and you let yourself beat you.
Yeah I wouldn't suggest UAS is *harder* or LAS is *harder*, they are different. One (UAS) certainly gives more options and more to think about *during* an encounter, but it also gives more flexibility, so in some ways could be seen as 'easier'. The other (LAS) certainly gives less options and has less to think about *during* an encounter, but the restriction might be said to add difficulty and some of the tactics are moved to *between* fights.
They are different. Some enjoy more dynamism. Some enjoy more prep. Some find limitations a challenge. Some a frustration. Blah blah blah.
I wish people would stop insisting they are 'right' and others 'wrong' and would instead bend their minds to thinking out some innovative solutions that might please both.
EQ Classic wasn't strict LAS. Why shouldn't Pantheon have some new hybrid? Can we not agree that clearly we are split and so maybe some other solution is needed?
LAS (even at 8) + some kind of ability to cast from the Codex or non-combat bar *but with penalty to cast time/mana use/resource use/cooldown/whatever*, like EQ (but less UI-fiddling than re-memming), might please both sides? No?