Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Cohh thoughts on Pantheon

This topic has been closed.
    • 1428 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:15 AM PDT

    Fragile said: Except Bob Ross could knock out an entire painting in 30 minutes, because he knew what was or wasn't important.

    it is possible to build a zone in 30 mins if one has all the assets with the digital tools in place.  if i were to look at the picture vandraad linked, usually getting the assets all together is the long part.

    in the case of bob ross and zone creation:

    brushes would be assets

    the ink is the tools

    the canvas is the storage space

     

    naturally, if i don't have specialized brushes(digital assets) on hand, it gets a bit tedious to do that type of detail work.

    tools, the unity engine is robust.  i say this alot so i'll elaborate a bit here.  if i wanted to add a physics are have certain type of light or whatever, it can be scripted from scratch, plugged into anything from models to textures or frame.  in essence, they can create tools right then and there instead of having to go out and buy a chisel for this and a lightbox for that.

     

    progressively, if they built the assets and have create the tools now, subsequent zone building will be exponentally come about faster.  short term loss, long term gain.

    we could have 10 good zones now, but the expansion of zones might be smaller like 3 good zones per expansion.

    i'm willing to bet that vr is investing in infrastructure so that they could pump out even 5 great zones per expansion.

     

    the reason bob ross can pump out pictures in 30 mins is he has lots of tools and lots of paint, but it probably took him some time to get those things together.

    i say let vr continue to collect tools and paint :O

    • 379 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:20 AM PDT
    Jump off your steed and be realistic. How much are you going to see the Elvish assets in the Ogre lands, or humans, or Skar. The scope you are suggesting is Blizzard size, not a team of 7.
    • 368 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:23 AM PDT

    Fragile said:
    arazons said: I am confident that they have more done than what they are showing. And I would prefer they continue working rather than having to stop to show every area and zone they are working on.
    Except we know that they don't want to start Alpha until all of Kingsreach was interconnected and gray-boxed or base skinned at minimum. If they had more (much more), don't you think they would have moved on from showing the Murk (that's not close to finished) to the next phase aka Alpha? Where they can essentially explode in their pants from the amount of money & donations that would come from the exposure and new availability? Which in turn, increases their ability to produce - from hiring more people.

     

    Well that is certainly a logical opinion.

    It is just not one necessarily one that I agree with.

    I honestly think they are keeping their cards close to their chest and are reshowing the same areas over and over again so that we're not inundated with the entirety of the game before we are actually meant to. Someday we will get a huge content drop, updated website, updated forums, a plethora of new media source (screens/videos?) and an announcement of PA5 and perhaps Alpha. Being a small indie team though I wouldnt hold your breath for it to happen, you may pass out in the process. But I am confident that it will get there.

     

    ...And ofcourse I may be flat out wrong in my assumptions, but, until I am explicitly shown otherwise I am assuming the ship is still on course.


    This post was edited by arazons at March 10, 2020 11:27 AM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:25 AM PDT

    Fragile said: Jump off your steed and be realistic. How much are you going to see the Elvish assets in the Ogre lands, or humans, or Skar. The scope you are suggesting is Blizzard size, not a team of 7.

    hmmm architecture is a different thing.

    i was thinking more along the lines of specular lighting and shadows, framework(not to be confused with texture?)

    more like lego blocks instead of the colour of the block itself.

    hopefully that makes sense?

    so instead of having just a 6x2 lego block, i have 2x2, 4x4, 6x2, 1x8, etc etc.. 

    • 1315 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:28 AM PDT

    VRs business model would have been ideal for mixing hand-crafted zones and procedurally generated content in a leaf-branch format.  Unfortunately, there is a very ridged mindset in both the developers and the community that everything must be unique and identifiable rather that a mix of both unique and generic.  Mixing would actually makes the unique bits . . . . unique.

    • 1273 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:29 AM PDT

    I honestly think they are keeping their cards close to their chest and are reshowing the same areas over and over again so that we're not inundated with the entirety of the game before we are actually meant to. 

    I was actually really surprised they even showed us that raid zone.  Yeah it was really cool, but that's something I would have expected them to keep secret.  

    • 379 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:50 AM PDT
    The have been clamoring about the "raid zone" for a long time now. It is currently tuned as a single group encounter and is going to be a mainstay for their "demo" to Publishers.
    • 201 posts
    March 10, 2020 1:34 PM PDT

    Let us be honest. It does seem fairly likely they are trying to make a small demo type bunch of content in order to showcase and hopefully get a large backer to finish the game.  Clearly they want that project to be as detailed as possible and as attractive as possible.  It is my belief, just my opinion mind you, that they are pinning their hopes on such an endeavor and I think if they are unsuccessful, we won't be too far in the distant future after such a failure, were it to occur, that they would shut the door.  I am one of the many who believes that completion and release is far from a fait accompli, but that they are trying to take a very targeted and specific shot at a goal that will enable them to continue on, but don't have the resources to complete the entire thing as they want without that kind of extra backing. 

    Hell, after someone posted a post about Project Gorgon, 5 minutes of looking at it today got me interested enough to take a serious look after work, and that is a game that looks pretty ugly and dated just in the little I looked.  Sounded fun and interesting though, especially in the game world and design, and my first thought was, maybe that is where I should be putting my backing and support.  I think there could be an appetite for a game that is not released early per se in an empty state, but rather one that has lots of meat without the dressings and sauces like extra detail in trees, etc.  I would gladly pay for a game knowing it was fun and complete but not highly polished for 6 months, while new content is added and polished during that time with the extra stable income.  However, given this project's lack of public development goals and timelines, fixed project goalposts, etc that accompany what is generally sound and reliable development with the accountability that comes with it, I would hesitate to rely on those kind of promises were this game to be released like that.  Kind of a catch 22 I guess.


    This post was edited by antonius at March 10, 2020 1:35 PM PDT
    • 201 posts
    March 10, 2020 1:42 PM PDT

    arazons said

     

    I honestly think they are keeping their cards close to their chest and are reshowing the same areas over and over again so that we're not inundated with the entirety of the game before we are actually meant to. Someday we will get a huge content drop, updated website, updated forums, a plethora of new media source (screens/videos?) and an announcement of PA5 and perhaps Alpha. Being a small indie team though I wouldnt hold your breath for it to happen, you may pass out in the process. But I am confident that it will get there.

     

    ...And ofcourse I may be flat out wrong in my assumptions, but, until I am explicitly shown otherwise I am assuming the ship is still on course.

     

    Yeah I am going to say I think the odds of this are next to 0.  Just think logically.  This game has suffered from a ton of delay and ever increasing negative sentiment with regards to the lack of visible progress.  Think back to a stream a while back where they announced a stream with no real new info and the outlash forced them to suddenly add a look into a few behind the scenes development processes.  IF they really had a ton of content all finished and such, there is no logical reason to not reveal that.  They frankly NEED support, and to get that, progress is what they need to show, because it is 100% the reason they are not getting it.  They could easily want to not spoil the content...sure, absolutely.  However, there is ZERO, I repeat, ZERO reason they would not do something like state publicly, we have complete zones X, Y, Z, A, B and C but we are not going to show them because we want them to be a surprise for players.  We don't want you to see everything, but rest assured, we have already completed 6 more zones" or something like that.  Those kind of things would garner enormous support and interest, and would allow for suspense and not giving it all away.  The fact is, they have made no statements even approaching that because the stuff just is not done.  Is there stuff in some zones that has not been shown?  Probably, because they obviously are not going to be able to stream every last little bit they have finished (hopefully), but the belief that a ton of stuff is just finished and the game is SO much farther along than anyone could possibly believe because of some secret unstated motive to keep the surprise is absurd. I think they have done and are working on, well, the stuff they have said they are. Hopefully they can complete PF and it is good enough to attract some more concrete support and funding and keep things moving in a steady, defined direction and we see some more progress.


    This post was edited by antonius at March 10, 2020 1:46 PM PDT
    • 99 posts
    March 10, 2020 2:03 PM PDT

    I want high quality but I would also agree that providing a full level 30 experience would allow for VR to generate income and potentially speed up production on the end game I would also doubt that hitting level 30 is going to be acheived in the first 30 days

    • 2419 posts
    March 10, 2020 2:17 PM PDT

    SugarWood said:

    I want high quality but I would also agree that providing a full level 30 experience would allow for VR to generate income and potentially speed up production on the end game I would also doubt that hitting level 30 is going to be acheived in the first 30 days

    I'll take that challenge of getting to 30 in 30 days.

    • 99 posts
    March 10, 2020 2:27 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    SugarWood said:

    I want high quality but I would also agree that providing a full level 30 experience would allow for VR to generate income and potentially speed up production on the end game I would also doubt that hitting level 30 is going to be acheived in the first 30 days

    I'll take that challenge of getting to 30 in 30 days.

     

    You might be the exception :)

    • 68 posts
    March 10, 2020 2:42 PM PDT

    I kind of agree with Cohh, content and and friends are whats going to win this game over with the masses IMO.  from a developers standpoint i see what they wanna do, i mean heck at any of our jobs we want people to say omg that looks beautiful you did such an amazing job, it couldnt be better!.  but in all honesty this exact conversation reminds me of an experience with EQ2.  I had been playing since launch and loved it. compared to eq1 it was beautiful... until my first raid in deathtoll. I was awstruck at how much detail went into that zone and everyone i was with felt the same.. talked about it for weeks. and the fact that i can still remember it lends itself to how great it was.. now my question is would i have noticed it. would any of us have if the entire world were like that? just in the last stream you saw amazing quality beautiful graphics and TBH i loved it. I dunno i'd personally rather play sooner than later its taken long enough already. another pre alpha that doesnt even have a date.  while the game looks polished in the end eventually its going to get overlooked because we've seen that before, been here before.  every zone every item doesnt need to be and shouldnt be that polished... what happens when expansions come out i'd assume every year or so?  only thing that is really bugging me is the fact that they are spending all this time and energy on making everything so perfect yet the classes and races arent even finished yet.. im not a developer so what do i know but imo start with the basics before you get OCD about graphics, bards necro's, summoners archai etc all thos should be in at LEAST working order before you start going into making every blade of grass look perfect.. graybox the **** out of the zones throw some nasty hairy toed hobbit in for placeholder models and work on the functionality of the class... basics covered.... now make it pretty... just my opinion as ive said not a developer what do i know... 


    This post was edited by Rhelic at March 10, 2020 2:44 PM PDT
    • 71 posts
    March 10, 2020 3:10 PM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    I was actually really surprised they even showed us that raid zone.  Yeah it was really cool, but that's something I would have expected them to keep secret.  

    Honestly though all they "need" to show us is just the starting areas and even that they can just restrict it to just 2 starting zones. We've so far only seen like 2.5 out of the 9 starting areas with the .5 part being Faerthale and as for the other two; they are Wilds End and Thronefast. We've still have alot of starting regions that they can go showcase instead of showing more dungeons and raids which aren't the core content in the game at the end of the day, after all. If they want to showcase what the game has to offer then that's fine and i understand that but what they dont need to do is have to focus souly on just the combat and group battles part of the game neither. They can show off how crafting works and how rich the narratives are in quests and more. There is alot they can do that won't "ruin" or "spoil" the game for their backers but yet all i've seen them do throughout the years is just showcase the combat in the game, well most of the time that is. They also don't need to use a Streamer like Cohh or whatever to show off the current state of the game (which lets face it, they HAVE been using Cohh alot to showcase the progress instead of, you know, just showing it themselves). I mean it's not like he works for them or whatever, he's just one of their backers after all. What they should be doing is instead releasing updates on the game through their own channels, whether that be through their Developer Diaries: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/blog/ or their youtube channel or both. All would be fine by me. I mean I would rather see more things like "Dev Play Sessions" (aka this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqZEMCC5nA) and more "Development Updates" (aka this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ro5ZrrOniA) over stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYaoi2Y4XvQ.

    I just want to be informed about the game I backed and not have to go through a third party to get information on the state of the product, which having to go through Cohh is exactly that. I backed the product, not Cohh. All the developers have to do is show off the state of 2 starting areas throughout development and give us some updates on things within the game. Like how crafting is coming along and how does it work in this state of the game. Also what are the current playable classes in the current build, for example: we've seen tons of "bard" and "necromancer" appearing on the loot table of development builds. Which isn't something you'd do unless they are playable in some fashion, but that's neither here nor there. 


    The point is, is that simply showing off the progress you made in combat isn't showing me anything, infact I still debate whether you can actually quest through the game at all, let alone craft armor. Heck I don't even know if there ammo is something that will have it's own seperate bag that can be stored in another bag and i'm still wondering if the max level of 50 which they were shooting for has been surpassed or is it still the max level. These are questions which i should be able to answer already but due to the developers lack of focus on showcasing the progress in things along those nature, i'm left to stumble around and make educated guesses instead, which isn't what i should have to do. But I guess I said enough... I'm just abit fustrated on the lack of what i'm being told about a product i backed and knowing the development team, i got a feeling that they have already heard about Cohhs advice and are prob going to act on it as they have a tendancy to listen more to him anyway because since they are constantly using him as a device to show off their progress. So hopefully the next video the next Development Update they do will show more things on the content end rather then the combat end. 

    • 2138 posts
    March 10, 2020 3:30 PM PDT

    From a brief perusal of these comments.

    I remember when WoW came out, and just before, how everyone was saying how things were so bad in EQ, about mechanics, and pathing and exploits-

    I think Devs get sensitive to that, there's alot of backlash on release that spreads faster than anything. Didn;t see alot of that with dark souls but that was a single player, with little Co Op.

    • 68 posts
    March 10, 2020 3:33 PM PDT

    I could be mistaken so dont flog me if i am incorrect please :P But I am assuming they use Cohh for these streams etc because he is a succesful game streamer.. he has followers and that is a great way to get the word out about pantheon.  For example I work in a plywood mill and ive talked to a few people about pantheon and they have never heard of it or even what kind of game it is.  but about 2 months ago a guy came up and said he was watching a stream (from cohh) and he was talking about pantheon.. this lead to him asking more question about the game and now thats one more person who is at least open to the idea of playing the game.. while i understand your point of view and it can be frustrating there are links to those streams and that information on the pantheon forums (although hard time find at times) cohh is a very useful tool in getting the word out (and I really enjoy watching him play pantheon) i wish we had more streamers with a high following to spread the word even more..

    • 56 posts
    March 10, 2020 3:50 PM PDT

    Rhelic said:

    only thing that is really bugging me is the fact that they are spending all this time and energy on making everything so perfect yet the classes and races arent even finished yet.. im not a developer so what do i know but imo start with the basics before you get OCD about graphics, bards necro's, summoners archai etc all thos should be in at LEAST working order before you start going into making every blade of grass look perfect..

     

    Generally the person or team responsible for art work are different than the teams assigned to class balance and other mechanics, but overall I get what you're saying.

    Some of my fondest memories are of sitting on a hillside, pulling mobs and chatting with friends and progressing through xp gain, the occasional upgrade drop etc. If combat's engaging enough, progression is enjoyable and deep, monster layout is challenging and intentional, and treasure is out there somewhere to be discovered if we push deep enough, I'm content to pass the time that way as fancy systems are further implemented over time fleshing out the experience. I'd likely even be Ok with an expansion being the expansion of available world mechanics with a few new areas possibly rather than what we've seen in the past which seems to be a few new systems (sometimes) and a new continent/area to focus on that renders the previous zones mostly useless.

    • 1273 posts
    March 10, 2020 3:54 PM PDT

    I just want to be informed about the game I backed and not have to go through a third party to get information...

    This I totally agree with.  It boggles my mind actually.

    • 1399 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:03 PM PDT

    I would like to make note Dev's that this is the same 5 or 6 impatient people complaining and whining about the same impatient things while claiming "we ALL want to know" and this is "what EVERYBODY thinks"

    While the other 10,000 of us on this site are ignoring them and hoping they don't convince you to compromise the Quality of the product you are creating for us to rush it out so they can rush through it to end level where they can continue their crying.

    I'd also like to point out those nice BRIEF cherry picked clips and a saying that comes to mind whenever I see somebody doing such things...

    Text, without Context, is Pretext!

    give it a rest you three, go play project 99 and come back in 6 months, getting tired of your whining!

    • 801 posts
    March 11, 2020 3:15 AM PDT

    Normally i don't comment on twitch streamers, because they just get paid by subs and endorsing them, but...

    He is not totally incorrect in his views, he shows off games to his subscribers and they can pick apart the game ahead of time if they wish.

     

    Remember he can play a game a day, to appeal to his viewer base, where as we will play it on a daily basis. Some of us are pretty hardcore, and explore 110% more then he will ever have the time to explore. Most of these streamers get hints from others, when it comes to MMOs.. Rightfully so, its a long term game.

     

    Still at the end of the day, he is just like all the other streamers out there. We take what is said with a grain of salt and explore the games ourselves.

     

     

    • 21 posts
    March 11, 2020 4:35 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    I would like to make note Dev's that this is the same 5 or 6 impatient people complaining and whining about the same impatient things while claiming "we ALL want to know" and this is "what EVERYBODY thinks"

    While the other 10,000 of us on this site are ignoring them and hoping they don't convince you to compromise the Quality of the product you are creating for us to rush it out so they can rush through it to end level where they can continue their crying.

    I'd also like to point out those nice BRIEF cherry picked clips and a saying that comes to mind whenever I see somebody doing such things...

    Text, without Context, is Pretext!

    give it a rest you three, go play project 99 and come back in 6 months, getting tired of your whining!

     

    Honestly the only "problem" I have with this games development is some of its "supporters". Seems like some of them are here to sabotage the project on purpose to me. 

     

    Call me crazy, but when I dont trust in a product I turn my back on it. I dont spend day in and day out on several forums and youtube channels tearing the devs to pieces with stories Ive contrived. That sounds like something Id do to someone I HATED when I was a immature child. Stinky diapers I call them.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • 56 posts
    March 11, 2020 5:54 AM PDT

    I am on the fence on this subject. I want a beautiful game that will immerse me into itself. I do see a point that at some point you just have to move forward. No one will ever make a perfect game, it is just impossible to. I do also worry about the devs putting too much into the game. The more systems in the game can lead to long development time, and more testing time needs and in the end more system to lead to exploits. 

    This next part is just my opinion well it is all just my opinion.

    EQ2 and WOW were head to head MMOs in terms of time periods in development and launch.  I believe EQ2 was a better game but as we all know did not do as well for several reasons. The biggest reason is/was design decisions. WOW's cartoonish look vs EQ2s at the time more advance look allowed the game to be more timeless. When EQ2 very first character images came out during development they were mind-blowing.  By the time the game launched, they were average compared to single-player games so nothing special really. WoW, the design has always been about let's get the average gamer to play with their average pc. Now I do not want Pantheon to be aiming for the average WoW player but at some point, you have to have the numbers or else the game just limps down the road. 

    Finding the balance on the top of a razor pointed fence is what a game like Visionary Realms must do between to make this game successful. For the hardcore want an old-school MMO yet is their enough of us to not just keep the doors open but really keep the world evolving at a pace that is financially viable. As a person who has successfully run a business the counts on customer's disposable income for 15 years I can say with authority it is impossible to please everyone all the time and sometimes you just have to push forward. It took me a long time to realize sometimes the more you work on something the worse it gets and to just decide that is good enough. Actually the jobs I did that I worked on until I felt was perfect the customer complained the most. The jobs I said that is good enough made me the most money. Go figure it is a hard line to know when it is time to go forward. 

    Also, worry about the devs falling into the saying "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". They need to remember that complaints are 1000 times louder than compliments. Do not fold to the pressure of a few but do look at the number of different comments on a topic rather than the most but a few. 

     

    • 51 posts
    March 11, 2020 6:34 AM PDT

    Perfection is the enemy of done.

    • 1281 posts
    March 11, 2020 6:50 AM PDT

    These same people crying that it needs to be released "now now now" even if it doesn't have all of the stuff are the same ones that cry about the "incomplete mechanics" and "incomplete artwork"on all of the streams.  They're also the same ones that will scream "This is just another Vanguard" if they release it incomplete like they're crying for them to.  You can deny it all you want, but your previous statements say otherwise.

    • 2138 posts
    March 11, 2020 2:35 PM PDT

    Kalok said:

    These same people crying that it needs to be released "now now now" even if it doesn't have all of the stuff are the same ones that cry about the "incomplete mechanics" and "incomplete artwork"on all of the streams.  They're also the same ones that will scream "This is just another Vanguard" if they release it incomplete like they're crying for them to.  You can deny it all you want, but your previous statements say otherwise.

     

    ^ this dynamic. Thisis what I was trying to say earlier, too. I think the Devs are sensitive to this, and I think this is pervasive in the Computer-Game-silicon-valley-developer "community"