Forums » Fan Creations

Is Pantheon too niche?

    • 2886 posts
    February 24, 2020 11:56 AM PST

    The developers of Pantheon: Rise of Fallen have stated that they're not trying to make an MMO that appeals to all types of people - they just want to make a high quality game for a specific target audience. And they've made it clear who that target audience is. For more on that, watch this: https://youtu.be/rJg04axYzic

    If you've been following the game closely for a while, that's probably not too surprising. But I think it still begs the question, will that demographic be big enough to keep the game sustainable over a long period of time? VR is making a bold move by not using the typical Free-to-Play model of most current MMOs. So in my latest video, I reveal how many subscribers Pantheon will need to be profitable & how sociology can help us predict if it's likely to reach that many: https://youtu.be/qNySKmkHR6w

    • 50 posts
    February 24, 2020 12:15 PM PST

    Vanguard had 40,000 subscribers until it shut down in 2014? That seems like an extremely generous number!

    • 12 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:02 PM PST

    Awesome video! Kinda made me feel special to know I am in the 13.5%er group ; )

    • 1860 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:54 PM PST

    VR had a shift in the way they referred to Pantheon around 2016.

    They have made it very clear that they have expanded their view of who the target audience is. (which seems quite obvious by the way certain systems have been evolving). 

    They have stated many multiple times that Pantheon is not intended to be a niche game.  This should be common knowledge at this point... "If you've been following the game closely for a while"

    Kilsin: I have also said that we are not niche multiple times across several platforms and I have also explained how we appeal to a much larger audience than first anticipated several times ;)

    and again...

    Kilsin: I have said that multiple times my friend, across multiple platforms, and in several posts on these forums, it isn't new it is just the first time recently that it has been stated and corrected and although Brad did a great job explaining it in much more detail, I have also explained it in several posts previously, I am quite frankly shocked that it comes as such a surprise to a few people, it should go without saying with all of the publicity and the wide range of curious gamers that we have seen increasing lately ;)

    There are other comments from Brad and more from Ben on the subject but that should be enough quotes.

    I guess you just want views.

     


    This post was edited by philo at February 24, 2020 5:07 PM PST
    • 119 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:39 PM PST

    philo said:

    VR had a shift in the way they referred to Pantheon around 2016.

    They have made it very clear that they have expanded their view of who the target audience is. (which seems quite obvious by the way certain systems have been evolving). 

    They have stated many multiple times that Pantheon is not intended to be a niche game. 

    They can state they are not niche or their intention not to be as many times as they want, but I think the general perception of the game is that it is still a very niche game. I view it as such, as do most if not all of the people I play games with and/or have spoken to about it over the last few years. This is of course, just my personal perception and opinion :]

    I thought the video asked some good questions in this regard and sparked some good discussion on the topic in my discords where I linked it.

    • 1860 posts
    February 25, 2020 3:54 AM PST

    Rokuzachi said:

    philo said:

    VR had a shift in the way they referred to Pantheon around 2016.

    They have made it very clear that they have expanded their view of who the target audience is. (which seems quite obvious by the way certain systems have been evolving). 

    They have stated many multiple times that Pantheon is not intended to be a niche game. 

    They can state they are not niche or their intention not to be as many times as they want, but I think the general perception of the game is that it is still a very niche game. I view it as such, as do most if not all of the people I play games with and/or have spoken to about it over the last few years. This is of course, just my personal perception and opinion :]

    I thought the video asked some good questions in this regard and sparked some good discussion on the topic in my discords where I linked it.

    You havent been paying attention. 

    Pantheon has been the #1 most hyped game on mmorpg.com multiple years in a row.  

    There are plenty of people who haven't been following closely enough to understand the situation.  Those are the only ones who think this will be a niche game at this point.  

    Be careful who you listen to.  I would take the word of Brad or Chris or Ben over any other random community member.  There is lots of misinformation being spread.

    Edit: Granted, I am concerned if this thing drags out for a few more years that the interest starts to dwindle and we end up as a niche game...but that is a different conversation and doesnt reflect the current state of things (or reflect the state of things for the last 3 or 4 years).


    This post was edited by philo at February 25, 2020 4:06 AM PST
    • 13 posts
    February 25, 2020 5:11 AM PST

    I think Rokuzachi hit the nail on the head. They can claim the game is not niche, or their intentions are not to create a niche but the tenets and reality say otherwise. This game definitely appeals to a certain gamer and I'm completely fine with that. It's exactly what I've been waiting for.

    • 119 posts
    February 25, 2020 6:34 AM PST

    philo said:

    Rokuzachi said:

    philo said:

    VR had a shift in the way they referred to Pantheon around 2016.

    They have made it very clear that they have expanded their view of who the target audience is. (which seems quite obvious by the way certain systems have been evolving). 

    They have stated many multiple times that Pantheon is not intended to be a niche game. 

    They can state they are not niche or their intention not to be as many times as they want, but I think the general perception of the game is that it is still a very niche game. I view it as such, as do most if not all of the people I play games with and/or have spoken to about it over the last few years. This is of course, just my personal perception and opinion :]

    I thought the video asked some good questions in this regard and sparked some good discussion on the topic in my discords where I linked it.

    You havent been paying attention. 

    Pantheon has been the #1 most hyped game on mmorpg.com multiple years in a row.  

    There are plenty of people who haven't been following closely enough to understand the situation.  Those are the only ones who think this will be a niche game at this point.  

    Be careful who you listen to.  I would take the word of Brad or Chris or Ben over any other random community member.  There is lots of misinformation being spread.

    Edit: Granted, I am concerned if this thing drags out for a few more years that the interest starts to dwindle and we end up as a niche game...but that is a different conversation and doesnt reflect the current state of things (or reflect the state of things for the last 3 or 4 years).

    I have been paying attention. I'm aware of those awards. I also don't put much stock in them. Why? 

    "...almost 2000 of you voted in our Players' Choice Awards 2019 poll. Now it's time to unveil your picks! Here are your winners in the 2019 MMORPG.com Players' Choice Awards!" 

    https://www.mmorpg.com/awards/players-choice-awards-2019-winners-2000108933

    Almost 2000. Two thousand. They also stated almost half the vote went to Pantheon. So let's assume thats 999 votes. 999 people on a relatively low traffic website catering to a specific genre of video games voted for it. In my eyes, that doesnt make the game non-niche. Winning the award is cool and great PR, if you don't mention the numbers.

    We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.

    • 557 posts
    February 25, 2020 7:05 AM PST

    How niche is "niche"?

    Pantheon is garnering enough interest across a widespread community of gamers from multiple games past and present.  If you look at the new member registrations on this forum and the number of people who are continuing to make new pledges, I think you'll find a continuous influx of fresh blood.

    I originally thought that virtually everyone interested in Pantheon was an ex-EQer.  As the recruiting officer for a Pantheon guild, I'm finding that many of our applicants didn't play EQ at all.  Some didn't play any SOE titles.   They are attracted to Pantheon on its own merits, not some deep EQ nostalgia or fans of Brad (although those are many).

    Clearly the game isn't designed to appeal to fans of anime, FPS, driving games, platform jumpers or Angry Birds. 

    Does that make it niche? 


    This post was edited by Celandor at February 25, 2020 7:06 AM PST
    • 1860 posts
    February 25, 2020 10:09 AM PST

    Rokuzachi said:

    I have been paying attention. I'm aware those awards. ...

    You picked out one point to respond to instead of having an understanding of what is being talked about as a whole.  Maybe part of that is my fault for not explaining it well enough and assuming, like Kils did in the above quote, that it was obvious to most people?

    I guess it has to be explained better.  Of course Pantheon isn't going to appeal to gamers who want a 100% differemt experience in a game...does that need to be said?  Whether that is a wow style game or a fps or Pokemon card game.

    I could argue wow is niche because it doesnt include fps or building or survival style content. That doesnt make it so.

    Pantheon is not niche in comparison to the original vision back when it was advertised as a niche game.  It is not niche in comparison to the number of players that were originally expected to play.  

    I guess if you didnt follow closely from the beginning you dont have a basis for understanding the shift.  Sometimes I forget not everyone has read every post on this forum (though those threads are still there).

    So yes, there has to be some common sense involved when discussing whether Pantheon is considered niche and in the end, you can call it what you want. 

    But here we are at this point with this player base.  If you think this is niche I question your perspective.

    Again, dont take my word for it..or any other random person who wants to talk because there is a lot of poor info out there. 

    Listen to the dev. team and know what they have said so that when someone tries to present bad information you can identify it. (Just in general with everything)


    This post was edited by philo at February 25, 2020 10:12 AM PST
    • 9 posts
    February 25, 2020 10:59 AM PST

    Nice video as usual, baz^^

    good that i am also one of those 13,5% like Enkidu xD

    • 624 posts
    February 25, 2020 4:01 PM PST

    Thanks Baz, I always appreciate your videos. Well polished and informative. I'll have to take this one with a ton of salt though, as the neat sociology theory curve is laughably simplistic (don't get me started on soft vs. hard science). It also gives no information on the velocity of adoption or retention rates of subs (not your fault, blame those sociologists!).

    Kudos though for pointing out it's only theory and not law, and IF the graph were an accurate predictor at least the rest of your math is sound.

    • 119 posts
    February 25, 2020 4:22 PM PST

    philo said:

    You picked out one point to respond to instead of having an understanding of what is being talked about as a whole.  Maybe part of that is my fault for not explaining it well enough and assuming, like Kils did in the above quote, that it was obvious to most people?

    Yes, I responded specifically to the factual information you gave of the award, because it was the only piece of hard evidence you offered in your response to me to support your position that Pantheon is not niche. At face value, I felt it was a good piece of evidence, but upon looking into the numbers for myself, I felt it was not sufficient. I don't think we can talk about the whole without discussing the specifics, and vice versa. You presented something that was fact, and had data behind it. I looked at the data, and stated that I didn't think it was sufficient evidence due to it basically being such a small sample size. Your response to that was to tell me that I missed something obvious, and that I don't understand what we're talking about as a whole. If you want to refute my statement on the validity of the award as good evidence to support the non-niche status of Pantheon, there are better ways to do it.

    Aside from that piece of verifiable info, there wasn't much to respond to in that post, which is why I singled out that point.

    I guess it has to be explained better.  Of course Pantheon isn't going to appeal to gamers who want a 100% differemt experience in a game...does that need to be said?  Whether that is a wow style game or a fps or Pokemon card game.

    I could argue wow is niche because it doesnt include fps or building or survival style content. That doesnt make it so.

    I feel like this borders on appealing to the extreme. Of course it's not targetting Pokemon players, FPS players, et cetera. You're using an extreme, and as you said, obvious example to support your position. Games can be niche, and still be well received by a general audience and become wildly successful. Pokemon is part of the collection game genre for example, but is played a huge spectrum of people. It could be argued that its broad success is irrelevant to it being niche or not, as there are a lot of collection games out there, that are not played by a wide audience. Collection/gacha games are a niche market, these days largely occupied by phone games, but one of them having breakout success outside of its expected playerbase does not mean it has suddenly stopped being a niche game. A niche game can be popular and widely played. The two are not mutually exclusive. These are of course, my opinions.

    Pantheon is not niche in comparison to the original vision back when it was advertised as a niche game.  It is not niche in comparison to the number of players that were originally expected to play.  

    I partially agree. I think it is attempting to be less niche than it was at inception. But, going back to what I said above, I do not agree that number of players dictates whether something is niche or not, since a game can be specifically made for an audience but achieve success outside of it. This is a fundamental difference in our positions/opinions, apparently.

    I guess if you didnt follow closely from the beginning you dont have a basis for understanding the shift.  Sometimes I forget not everyone has read every post on this forum (though those threads are still there).

    As stated above, I've been here for a while. I've read a lot of posts, consumed a lot of content for Pantheon. Your position seems to be that people with a different opinion are uninformed on the topic. Perhaps I haven't read as many posts as you have in these forums, but I feel comfortable in saying that I've read enough to form an opinion on the matter.

    So yes, there has to be some common sense involved when discussing whether Pantheon is considered niche and in the end, you can call it what you want. 

    But here we are at this point with this player base.  If you think this is niche I question your perspective.

    Could you define 'at this point'? That is an incredibly vague statement, and while I understand the intent, some numbers would be nice to back it up.

    Again, dont take my word for it..or any other random person who wants to talk because there is a lot of poor info out there. 

    Listen to the dev. team and know what they have said so that when someone tries to present bad information you can identify it. (Just in general with everything)

    That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm listening to people, the devs, and forming my own opinion. It just happens to differ from yours.

    I'm curious as to what all of this poor info/misinformation is? For example, I watch a lot of Pantheon videos from the community's content creators, and most of it seems to be opinion pieces, speculation, dev stream recaps, or talking with fellow fans about the game in podcast style format. Even Baz's video was just discussing the potential population of Pantheon based on that theory he presented in the video, on the assumption that the game is niche. I don't think there's anything misinformative about that, as he was speculating. If someone could somehow refute his speculation, or correct his data/methods, that'd be fine and dandy, but we need more than 'you are uninformed' to do that.

    Well, after all that, I don't think either of us has changed our positions. I concede that Pantheon is aiming to be less of a niche game than it was at its inception, but I do not agree that it has achieved that goal at this point in its dev. The reason I think that, is because the core of the game (which is of course, still in dev), harkens back to a different era of MMOs, and it is my opinion that in doing so, puts itself in a niche - but that doesn't mean it can't or won't appeal to a broader audience. If you've got some hard numbers aside from the 3157 backers from the Kickstarter campaign, that would help us to get a clearer picture.

    Edited for terminology.


    This post was edited by Rokuzachi at February 25, 2020 4:24 PM PST
    • 945 posts
    February 26, 2020 6:34 PM PST

    PRotF is 1st and foremost an MMORPG.  If you were to identify its "niche" audience, I would say it is MMORPG players.  Which by the very definition of "Massive Multiplayer" is the opposite of "niche".  VR is doing kind of a homage to Everquest, but I wouldn't confuse that with them exclusively targeting the "small population" (a.k.a. niche) of players that basically want a reskinned EQ.

    With that said, I think they will have enough subs to do just fine (as long as they can continue to produce content) because the MMORPG crowd is not what I would call a niche percentage of the gaming community.

    Add: https://mmo-population.com/ PRotF is #28 here and shows 10,851 (although I'm not sure how that number is calculated).


    This post was edited by Darch at February 26, 2020 6:56 PM PST
    • 119 posts
    February 26, 2020 7:48 PM PST

    Darch said:

    PRotF is 1st and foremost an MMORPG.  If you were to identify its "niche" audience, I would say it is MMORPG players.  Which by the very definition of "Massive Multiplayer" is the opposite of "niche".  VR is doing kind of a homage to Everquest, but I wouldn't confuse that with them exclusively targeting the "small population" (a.k.a. niche) of players that basically want a reskinned EQ.

    With that said, I think they will have enough subs to do just fine (as long as they can continue to produce content) because the MMORPG crowd is not what I would call a niche percentage of the gaming community.

    Add: https://mmo-population.com/ PRotF is #28 here and shows 10,851 (although I'm not sure how that number is calculated).

     

    I agree with you there. I think it'll be a very healthy game and enjoy success. The timing is right, IMO, and the genre has been around long enough and seen enough changes over its time to be able to have one that goes back a bit and takes the things that were more prevalent early on and makes them relevant again.

    Talking about MMO-gamers as a segment of the gaming population raises an interesting question; how much crossover is there? As in, if you took say a group of 10,000 people who play a specific MMO, how many of them are 'gamers that happen to play this MMO' and how many are 'MMO gamers', "gamers that play one MMO", and so on. I guess we can't do anything but speculate on that, but it's interesting to think about. (unless someone has some cool data to link :])

    Personally, I've been an MMO-only gamer since about 2011 or 2012?. The last single-player/non-MMO game I bought was Skyrim I think. Prior to that it'd been years since I bought one, too. It's all just anecdotal, but I'm the only person of my group of ~25 gamer friends that plays the genre as their main/only kind of game.

    • 1860 posts
    February 27, 2020 3:35 PM PST

    Rokuzachi said:

     I could go through and break down your post but I'm not going to take the time.

    If you don't believe what the game devs have stated multiple times then you are in your own world.  You may as well be calling them liars.  I guess you will be just one more of the masses spreading bad information.

    • 1273 posts
    February 27, 2020 3:52 PM PST

    I like math :)