I would like to start off by saying this is my first post and the stream today was really solid. Really love the work that has gone into the new zone. The acclimation system is really looking amazing. I was however a bit worried. The big concern is around 8 pages of spells, at level 40 (not to mention spells that you might find through game play or future expansions), and only 1 real action bar to manage them. This seems like a step backwards. I get limiting them, so you aren't insanely overwhelmed, and your entire screen covered in actionbars, but how do you expect people to manage all these spells? It seems to me like most people (I know I thought about this when watching) will end up with the codex open and moving skills around mid-combat (or in between fights). If you are worried about immersion, I feel like this only makes it worse (far worse IMO). I know there are many arguments for and against multiple actionbars and Joppa has talked about the possiblility of adding more, but I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts and hopefully get some additional feedback from the devs.
Personally, I was happy with today's stream. It answered a lot of questions for me. I realized in the past that I have at times been a negative nancy when it comes to Pantheon. Today's stream was reassuring. As far as the eight slots on the action bar. I will say it was a good start and possibly be something to grow into as the game progresses. Good job guys.
FamineDeathbringer said:...I was however a bit worried. The big concern is around 8 pages of spells, ... and only 1 real action bar to manage them. ...
Keep in mind that many of those spells and abilities might be low level spells that you only use at low levels. You won't even want to use most of them all the time. There will be situations where you'll want/need to switch some out, of course, but don't let the 8 pages get you worried.
I thought they talked about the 8 slot action bar only being for IN-combat spells.
There was a smaller bar above it for out of combat spells. Because it wasn't mentioned that the out of combat spells would be limited, I'm under the impression that we can have as many out of combat spells as we want on more bars. If it works like I think it does where the out of combat hotbar is unlimited I feel like that might be way to much available at once in the long run...especially for some classes.
I'm ok with only having 8 slots total for all spells as long as we can have preloaded hotbar setups that will load our preset bars with only a click or 2.
Maybe they could clarify for us?\
edit: maybe saying the differences in the bars is out of combat vs in combat isn't 100% accurate? Not knowing exactly how they will be divided I guess it is fine to define them that way until we know more.
Ranarius said:FamineDeathbringer said:...I was however a bit worried. The big concern is around 8 pages of spells, ... and only 1 real action bar to manage them. ...
Keep in mind that many of those spells and abilities might be low level spells that you only use at low levels. You won't even want to use most of them all the time. There will be situations where you'll want/need to switch some out, of course, but don't let the 8 pages get you worried.
First I like to start out by saying welcome to the forums FamineDeathbringer.
To add on to what Ranarius said. I think it is by design to. To make you think about what you need and don't need for that xp group or raid and so on. So if you are going to fight a boss that does a lot of poison dmg. You are going to want spells to counter that and so on. VR doesn't want us to have our entire book of spells on the hotbar. Plus also what Ranarius said.
An extremely short spell bar is a bit cringeworthy when I think back to low level EQ spells for classes like shammies and especially enchanters. You had to constantly juggling your active spells to recast relatively short duration buffs. It got better as you leveled and spell duration increased, but around level 20 or so it was painful. I trust that VR has something different in mind from something that is now 20+ years old.
FamineDeathbringer said:The big concern is around 8 pages of spells, at level 40 (not to mention spells that you might find through game play or future expansions), and only 1 real action bar to manage them.
I just spent a long time watching the stream again and pausing often to look at the abilities Cohh had. Those 8 pages of the Codex coverered 40 levels of ability growth. There were numerous 'lines' of abilities that started on page 1-2 and then were upgraded and given a different name on subsequent pages. So while there might be exceptions, I think that most of the abilities you used at level 5 will not be ones you use at all by level 25.
My guess is that after your starter levels, the most recent couple of pages of the Codex will contain the great majority of the abilities you use for 90% of your adventuring. That's still plenty of choices to be made. But way more manageable than 10 to 15 pages - all viable - at lvl cap.
As a Shaman, Cohh had his main bar of eight filled with heals, offensive spells, slows. The six slot bar above was for buffs. From what I have heard there will be no changing spells in combat. VR is putting a premium on planning ahead of the fight. I think eight spells is a good place to start. The devs said that number might change based on comments from testers. There's not going to be two or three eight spot hot bars up at the same time. From others streams buffs will start out lasting about 20 minutes and going up from there. The first step up from single person buffs will be group buffs as seen in the stream. That'll save a lot of time/mana.
Most of those spells were just upgrades of the same line similar to EQ1, just with new names instead of slow #4. I would guess there was 20-25ish unique abilities in general, seems like you can have half of them up at a given time between the two bars. Seems good to me. Thought the UI looked good, thought the zones looked good, continue to be pleased with the Perception and Acclimation systems. The Codex and AA ability system look excellent. Overall, I thought this stream was a much needed home run. I also thought the new lead programmer guy did a great job talking about things on the stream, I'm encouraged with him.
The biggest issue remains character animations, they just aren't good. The mobs all look relatively fine animation-wise, but the combat looks awful still. The goal at a minimum should be a Classic WoW fluidity while fighting elites in that game. The Combat is slowed down due to the elites, but the character fight animations and response remain outstanding. If you guys can get a better animator, you're in business. WIthout one, people are going to balk at trying the game. Most of my judgment is the Warrior animations and the default auto attack animations, I just believe there is ALOT of work to be done there. Still, overall, stream was excellent.
I have yet to hear a compelling argument for a severely limited action set. I would love to hear VR chime in and defend this decision with actual data on why they think it's necessary. This is a real time MMO, not a turn based strategy game. If the desire is to require meaningful decision making in combat, how does limiting the action set so drastically promote that? There is no logic in stating decisions will be more difficult or more important to make when you have so many fewer options. Is the argument now that preparation out of combat is more important than decision making in combat? That is extremely weak.
This was extremely disappointing news with seemingly no justification other than "EQ did it". I might be the biggest EQ can do no wrong fan boi around, and that argument holds no water, even with me. This is an archaic design that harkens back to the single player turn based games that influenced MMOs 20+ years ago. If the game doesn't spam bloated skills and abilities at players, there is no sound reason to restrict gameplay like this. It is tedious, and simply does not feel good as a player to be restricted in such a manner, again, for seemingly no good reason. A LAS like this does not promote strategy, it restricts it.
We're 5+ years in to development. VR should be able to make strong logical arguments for why certain mechanics are, or are not, being used. Instead of "we feel" or "we think" or "we plan", tell us what the exact reasoning is behind this decision and how the game will be better for it. This is potentially a gameplay defining decision, and VR should be able to defend it. What type of things is VR going to pair with a LAS to make it anything other than a tedious, arbitrary restriction?
I love transparency and I love accountability, and I believe both are necessary and very helpful for our team, both now and ongoing.
Don't ever stop pushing us to do better as a Development Team, both in the quality of our work and the quality of our communication.
- Joppa 02/16/15
Keno Monster said:I have yet to hear a compelling argument for a severely limited action set. I would love to hear VR chime in and defend this decision with actual data on why they think it's necessary. This is a real time MMO, not a turn based strategy game. If the desire is to require meaningful decision making in combat, how does limiting the action set so drastically promote that? There is no logic in stating decisions will be more difficult or more important to make when you have so many fewer options. Is the argument now that preparation out of combat is more important than decision making in combat? That is extremely weak.
This was extremely disappointing news with seemingly no justification other than "EQ did it". I might be the biggest EQ can do no wrong fan boi around, and that argument holds no water, even with me. This is an archaic design that harkens back to the single player turn based games that influenced MMOs 20+ years ago. If the game doesn't spam bloated skills and abilities at players, there is no sound reason to restrict gameplay like this. It is tedious, and simply does not feel good as a player to be restricted in such a manner, again, for seemingly no good reason. A LAS like this does not promote strategy, it restricts it.
I agree with this entire post. Everytime LAS comes up, all I can ever think about is a rookie quarterback that's not acclimated (pun) to the playbook. To help, coaches will then "dumb down" the playbook so there are less options and things to keep track of - this then makes it much easier on said quarterback. I thought the goal of this game was to be slower paced and challenging where your decisions in-combat mattered, not playing spell-swap between combat. Afk'ing between fights to mem or un-mem spells/abilities is just a massive level of tedium to which I can't understand. Decisions made out of combat hardly compare to the difficulty, skill, and wherewithal to make the correct choices in combat.
As Keno pointed out, we need to hear (from Joppa) some sort of justification and concrete evidence on why this is the (correct) design choice.
Ezrael said:Well I'm sure you two will make another YouTube video complaining about it because you don't understand it.
You're a vocal minority though.
It's entirely possible that it isn't understood, and if that's the case then VR should easily be able to enlighten us, right? People aren't saying it can't possibly be good, we are instead listing logic based rationale for why it could be bad and asking for legitimate reasoning as to why that won't be the case. Did any EQ player EVER think it was fun to have to sit down and remem a couple spells every other fight in the name of "strategy"? It was tedious and it was arbitrary. It puts players in a box. What is VR going to do with game design and systems to make a limited action set FUN? Because there are lots of reasons, as detailed, as to why it is decidedly NOT fun. The game already has hard limits on what players can do: resources and cooldowns. This isn't a wow clone where you can pop a mana potion every minute and get back 1/4 of your MP or a summoned drink that will have you at 100% in 20 seconds. Resource usage and regeneration is already tactical and the core manner in which ability usage will be limited.
Keno Monster said:I have yet to hear a compelling argument for a severely limited action set. I would love to hear VR chime in and defend this decision with actual data on why they think it's necessary. This is a real time MMO, not a turn based strategy game. If the desire is to require meaningful decision making in combat, how does limiting the action set so drastically promote that? There is no logic in stating decisions will be more difficult or more important to make when you have so many fewer options. Is the argument now that preparation out of combat is more important than decision making in combat? That is extremely weak.
This was extremely disappointing news with seemingly no justification other than "EQ did it". I might be the biggest EQ can do no wrong fan boi around, and that argument holds no water, even with me. This is an archaic design that harkens back to the single player turn based games that influenced MMOs 20+ years ago. If the game doesn't spam bloated skills and abilities at players, there is no sound reason to restrict gameplay like this. It is tedious, and simply does not feel good as a player to be restricted in such a manner, again, for seemingly no good reason. A LAS like this does not promote strategy, it restricts it.
We're 5+ years in to development. VR should be able to make strong logical arguments for why certain mechanics are, or are not, being used. Instead of "we feel" or "we think" or "we plan", tell us what the exact reasoning is behind this decision and how the game will be better for it. This is potentially a gameplay defining decision, and VR should be able to defend it. What type of things is VR going to pair with a LAS to make it anything other than a tedious, arbitrary restriction?
I love transparency and I love accountability, and I believe both are necessary and very helpful for our team, both now and ongoing.
Don't ever stop pushing us to do better as a Development Team, both in the quality of our work and the quality of our communication.
- Joppa 02/16/15
Revision: February 20, 2017
2.2 Will there be a limitation to the number of abilities we can use at a given time?
You may be limited to a subset of your abilities for the next encounter, causing you to have to intelligently plan ahead and memorize the spells most effective against the upcoming enemy. Likewise, you'll want to memorize spells that counter the upcoming mob’s abilities. Lastly, you may have some abilities that work synergistically with others in your group. But the key point here is that these tactical decisions can be made right before the actual encounter. Then, say you move on deeper into the dungeon and are about to confront a different boss with different abilities and a different disposition, it may make tactical sense to prep different abilities. So yes, you are limited to that extent (you cannot simply use any of your 80+ abilities whenever you wish) because planning for the battle ahead and doing so effectively is key to Pantheon. The exact number of spells, abilities, feats and actions one can prep is TBD and won’t likely be finalized until Beta. What’s depicted in screenshots showing the UI is not final.
A limited action set is an anti synergy when mobs can spawn with random dispositions. There is nothing tactical about getting lucky that you have root up instead of fear when the mob spawns immune to fear, etc, etc, etc.
But the key point here is that these tactical decisions can be made right before the actual encounter.
This is sentence is duplicitous. Making a decision out of combat is hardly tactical. That's like deciding you want to cook an omlette (fight mob_01), and then needing to tactfully choose eggs (spells) as the main ingredient (source of dmg/healing/etc).
I think people are lying to themselves if they think there's any kind of real strategy in planning for something you 100% know is going to be required. It's not smart or fun to buff cold and magic resist before a boss fight and then have to forget those spells to be able to mem two others. It's not fun to have an ability on a long cooldown being a completely dead slot for 3 minutes at a time.
Mathir said:Most of those spells were just upgrades of the same line similar to EQ1, just with new names instead of slow #4. I would guess there was 20-25ish unique abilities in general, seems like you can have half of them up at a given time between the two bars. Seems good to me.
Slow #4 should overwrite Slow#3. That saves a lot of space
Nice stream. Nice presentation. Game is looking very nice. Still excited about this game.
Super disapointed in the extreamly limted Action Ability Bar. And they were all on the same cool down timer.
8 Abilities to use in combat is too few. Putting them all on the same timer is too limiting. This screams of boring combat during fights.
They did state that the action bar was designed so it could be easily expanded if they find during testing that 10 slots are needed rather than 8.