Forums » The Paladin

Paladin - 'Burning Questions' (Joppa)

    • 388 posts
    November 18, 2019 10:32 PM PST

    1) So far we have seen the Warrior’s (Angering Blow/Angered ‘state’) and the Dire Lord’s (Provoking Phantoms/Nightmare Blood stance) abilities/mechanics on how they will generate aggro. We have yet to see the bread & butter mechanics for how the Paladin intends to generate long-term hate, outside of a critical from Fervent Strike or throwing out Wrathful Aegis (AE). What will be the Paladin’s main aggro generation mechanic that is sustainable?

     

    2) Will stuns generate large (bonus) hate when successful (and unsuccessful)? - Ignore if answered by question #1.

     

    3) In previous MMO’s aggro caused by healing was usually half or a quarter of what damage would be (in terms of 1-to-1 hate), what are the plans for Healing aggro?

     

    4) Will the power gain(s) from facing undead make Paladin’s feel like they will always need to be in undead areas, as to not be less valuable (or desirable)?

     

    5) Will Paladins get a resurrection spell that works outside of combat, that doesn’t require them to sacrifice half of their health pool (Atone)?

     

    6) After seeing Lightguard (If using a two-handed weapon, this ability will increase your chance to Parry), will two-handed weapon tanking be as viable for the Paladin as it is for the Dire Lord?

     

    7) The Paladin’s Edict line of abilities seem pretty strong, will they all share a cooldown or will they be independent of each other?

     

    8) With Golden Strike and Golden Aegis granting Immunity, will you still be able to maintain aggro on creatures you are tanking, or will they momentarily go to the next target on the hate list until the effect ends?

     

    9) Generalized tank question - Is it a goal to have all of the tank classes be similar in damage (DPS) on a single target (assuming gear is equivalent)?

     

     10) Are there plans to increase the number of races that are playable by Paladins (Dark Myr can be clerics for example)?

    • 769 posts
    November 20, 2019 5:54 PM PST

    #10 is a burning question of mine as well.  Paladin is my favorite class, while Dwarves and Halflings are my least favorite races and I find playing Humans rather dull in a magical world that allows you to be mythical species with wonderous abilities.  (I know Halflings are currently not allowed to be Paladins, I am just stating that they are one of my two least favorite races)  Nothing would make me ragequit/uninstall faster than being forced to reluctantly play a Human because Paladin is my favorite class to find out a year later that ANY other race can be a Paladin... on the other side of that same coin, if it is public knowledge that other races will be allowed to be other classes I will happily play something else and wait to make my Paladin until I can be ANY of the races other than Dwarf, Halfling, or Human.

    Putting SO much emphasis on the critical importance of race/class selection only to "secretly" have it change later would make many people absolutely infuriated.  Especially when you consider that making changes like that punishes the loyal followers and rewards the n00bs.  

    • 129 posts
    November 22, 2019 9:11 AM PST

    From the video's that I have seen. It appears that paladin's have a major problem with getting and holding aggro. If my assumptions that are solely based on what I have seen in video's is correct. What are you all going to do to alleviate this problem?

     

     

    • 382 posts
    November 22, 2019 1:07 PM PST

    Vander said:

    From the video's that I have seen. It appears that paladin's have a major problem with getting and holding aggro. If my assumptions that are solely based on what I have seen in video's is correct. What are you all going to do to alleviate this problem?

    Devs have been pointing out in streams for years that the exact numerical value of various abilities and buffs are and will continue to be tweaked as needed. They also tend to suggest that larger numbers of players - as in alpha/beta - will be needed to get good statistics for that job. Since the tank's ability to hold aggro exists in a balance with the amount of hate that the DPS classes can generate, I don't see that they can 'fix' that issue independently from the process of finding 'just the right amount' of damage and thus hate that all the various DPS abilities have. It might even be true that ALL the damage-causing abilities have to be mostly dialed in before they do the final adjustments on the tank classes's hate generation.

    • 388 posts
    November 22, 2019 8:16 PM PST

    @Vander & @Jothany: Re-read my very first question.

     

    1) So far we have seen the Warrior’s (Angering Blow/Angered ‘state’) and the Dire Lord’s (Provoking Phantoms/Nightmare Blood stance) abilities/mechanics on how they will generate aggro. We have yet to see the bread & butter mechanics for how the Paladin intends to generate long-term hate, outside of a critical from Fervent Strike or throwing out Wrathful Aegis (AE). What will be the Paladin’s main aggro generation mechanic that is sustainable?

    • 129 posts
    November 22, 2019 8:16 PM PST

    Jothany said:

    Vander said:

    From the video's that I have seen. It appears that paladin's have a major problem with getting and holding aggro. If my assumptions that are solely based on what I have seen in video's is correct. What are you all going to do to alleviate this problem?

    Devs have been pointing out in streams for years that the exact numerical value of various abilities and buffs are and will continue to be tweaked as needed. They also tend to suggest that larger numbers of players - as in alpha/beta - will be needed to get good statistics for that job. Since the tank's ability to hold aggro exists in a balance with the amount of hate that the DPS classes can generate, I don't see that they can 'fix' that issue independently from the process of finding 'just the right amount' of damage and thus hate that all the various DPS abilities have. It might even be true that ALL the damage-causing abilities have to be mostly dialed in before they do the final adjustments on the tank classes's hate generation.

    I didn't come to Pantheon until March of this year. So I know nothing about "the devs have been pointing it out for years". I haven't even been here one year yet. So thank you for that information. I do my best to watch old video's and listen to old round table discussions. I just never came across this. If I did I don't remember it. Again thank you for this information. I greatly appreciate it.  


    This post was edited by Vander at November 22, 2019 8:17 PM PST
    • 129 posts
    November 22, 2019 8:24 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    @Vander & @Jothany: Re-read my very first question.

     

    1) So far we have seen the Warrior’s (Angering Blow/Angered ‘state’) and the Dire Lord’s (Provoking Phantoms/Nightmare Blood stance) abilities/mechanics on how they will generate aggro. We have yet to see the bread & butter mechanics for how the Paladin intends to generate long-term hate, outside of a critical from Fervent Strike or throwing out Wrathful Aegis (AE). What will be the Paladin’s main aggro generation mechanic that is sustainable?

     

    I know you stated it in #1 on your post. Does that mean I can not second that and also put my point of concern up? Even if it coincide with what you said.So if you say something I can not also say it and basicly agree with you? I do not understand your logic..

    • 388 posts
    November 23, 2019 12:02 AM PST

    Vander said:

    I know you stated it in #1 on your post. Does that mean I can not second that and also put my point of concern up? Even if it coincide with what you said.So if you say something I can not also say it and basicly agree with you? I do not understand your logic..

    You would do something similar to what Darch did.

    • 382 posts
    November 23, 2019 12:14 AM PST

    Fragile said:

    @Vander & @Jothany: Re-read my very first question.

    OK, I read it. NO idea why you wanted me to, but I did.

    I hope it was as good for you as it was for me.

    :)

    • 129 posts
    November 23, 2019 6:33 AM PST

    The title of the "thread" is "Paladin - 'Burning Questions' (Joppa)" and you want to get mad when people post their own question to Joppa if it coincide with what you said. You also want to control-dictate how a person speaks. They got a word for that.... I'm not going there.  

    • 1505 posts
    November 23, 2019 12:21 PM PST

    I think the all "holding aggro" mechanic will be sorted out well before beta comes out, and remember these are only core abilities, and not all their abilities, and i don't see why Fervant Strike has to crit to hold aggro, it creates high threat either way, it just more threat if it does crit, like every ability in every game.

    • 388 posts
    November 23, 2019 5:51 PM PST

    Vander said:

    The title of the "thread" is "Paladin - 'Burning Questions' (Joppa)" and you want to get mad when people post their own question to Joppa if it coincide with what you said. You also want to control-dictate how a person speaks. They got a word for that.... I'm not going there.  

    What you originally said was just a poorly worded version of what I was asking in the first place. It's pretty simple to agree with someone and then state why, without trying to reformulate it into a less eloquent version. ie: I am interested in question #1 myself, from the videos it seemed like the Paladin had major aggro issues compared to the other tanks.

    Riahuf22 said:

    i don't see why Fervant Strike has to crit to hold aggro, it creates high threat either way, it just more threat if it does crit, like every ability in every game.

    Just going directly from the Paladin class page: "If your enemy is stunned, this attack will critically hit and generate a large amount of hate."

    It seems like it applies a bonus hate amount if it crits on a target - outside of normal/critical damage aggro.

     

    • 382 posts
    November 23, 2019 8:00 PM PST

    Vander said:

    Jothany said:

    ....

    I didn't come to Pantheon until March of this year. So I know nothing about "the devs have been pointing it out for years". I haven't even been here one year yet. So thank you for that information. I do my best to watch old video's and listen to old round table discussions. I just never came across this. If I did I don't remember it. Again thank you for this information. I greatly appreciate it.  

    I'm sorry if "the devs have been pointing it out for years" came across as dismissive. It wasn't intended that way when I typed it, but coming back later and reading it, it sounds that way to me now.

    What I should have said is that they've never really made any kind of announcement about it, I've just watched all the gameplay streams (more than once lol) and I've heard a number of occasions - from the earliest streams to recent ones - where some streamer commented on the amount of damage being done. Joppa or Machail would give a quick answer saying what I told you, then the conversation would move on. It was very easy to not catch it, at least until you had watched a few times and were no longer focused on the action.

    Anyway I hope the info is useful.


    This post was edited by Jothany at November 23, 2019 8:02 PM PST
    • 1505 posts
    November 26, 2019 8:26 AM PST

    I understand where you were getting yout line of thinking, i just didn't read it the same way.  I believe it was more trying to decribe an affect it would have if the target was stunned than the actually threat it cuased if it critically hit.  as a crit on fervant strike will probably cuase as much threat if he critcally hits if the target is stunned or not.  As this should be the case, fervant strike should simple just be a strong aggro ability the paladins have in their arsenal to hold threat and not rely on crits like a dps class would, they should be rewarded for critting as in creating more threat, but not to the point hat if fervant strike doesn't crit is bad and if it does crit is good, is should always be good and than become better if you crit.

    In other words i am saying Fervant Strike will always cuase a large amount of threat, whether he crits or not, he will simply just cuase more for critting becuase he critted, as i said before.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at November 26, 2019 8:52 AM PST
    • 388 posts
    December 13, 2019 9:30 PM PST

    Now we know Warrior's and Dire Lord's both generate Hate over Time (Strike of Breaking / Provoking Phantoms) for their main mechanic(s), I am now even more curious for my 1st question to be answered. As a side note, would love to see a well-versed Paladin Point-of-View Gameplay stream.

    • 769 posts
    December 15, 2019 4:11 PM PST

    Since both the DL and warrior generate hate over time, I'm hoping/assuming that this will be a theme of the tank role and therefore the Paladin will have it as well (and the Monk will not have a means to generate threat over time but simply have their hard taunts.)  We will see.

    • 388 posts
    December 15, 2019 7:02 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Since both the DL and warrior generate hate over time, I'm hoping/assuming that this will be a theme of the tank role and therefore the Paladin will have it as well (and the Monk will not have a means to generate threat over time but simply have their hard taunts.)  We will see.

    I am hoping Paladins will have something different, as Hate over time for all 3 classes is kinda boring. I am hoping that Wrathful Aegis is the only 'over time' threat they will have and everything else will be instant/direct. As burst threat is generally the best threat, at least in group content.

    • 1505 posts
    December 16, 2019 12:14 PM PST

    Agree, Just have Fervant Strike be a good filler and have a few other abilties be a good source of threat a long the way so you arent just smashing one button over and over again, but I'm just going to wait before i get to far into it, as i havent really seen the paladin played much at all and want to see how he looks when they decide to let us see it.

    • 769 posts
    December 16, 2019 4:48 PM PST

    Riahuf22 said:

    Agree, Just have Fervant Strike be a good filler and have a few other abilties be a good source of threat a long the way so you arent just smashing one button over and over again, but I'm just going to wait before i get to far into it, as i havent really seen the paladin played much at all and want to see how he looks when they decide to let us see it.

    What you are describing is exactly smashing one button over and over again...  The same as the other tanks.  They all have an "incite" (taunt) ability for snap agro along with other threat generating skills.  Having a constant threat over time would be exactly what would differentiate the tank role for just being able to grab agro (like I'm certain any class will be able to do through healing/dmg/or actual taunts like the monk's Iron Palm.

    @Fragile - threat over time will be the exact opposite of boring IMO.  This will require multiple tanks to actually have skill in order to maintain which tank has threat and will really separate the button mashers from the good players.

    • 388 posts
    December 16, 2019 7:32 PM PST

    Darch said:

    @Fragile - threat over time will be the exact opposite of boring IMO.  This will require multiple tanks to actually have skill in order to maintain which tank has threat and will really separate the button mashers from the good players.

    It's just like keeping a DoT up, not sure how that's not boring. Take Strike of Breaking for example, you get it to 5 stacks and just maintain (don't let the debuff fall off). It lasts 30 seconds and the cooldown is 10 seconds. The only benefit is that you get to do other things in that debuff 'window' (20-ish seconds). Obviously you want to use Angering Blow first for the 'Angered' debuff, so now you have a 2 button rotation that are both on cooldowns.

    Any sort of skill that comes into play is if you are tanking multiple things, and you have to decide which mob is going to get which debuff at what time. This is where the Paladin shines with his AE abilities. I'd much rather have my strikes add the hate or bonus hate rather than a 'Hate Over Time' debuff, which turns in to staring at your debuff timers etc.


    This post was edited by Fragile at December 16, 2019 7:35 PM PST
    • 1505 posts
    December 17, 2019 9:31 AM PST

    Darch said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    Agree, Just have Fervant Strike be a good filler and have a few other abilties be a good source of threat a long the way so you arent just smashing one button over and over again, but I'm just going to wait before i get to far into it, as i havent really seen the paladin played much at all and want to see how he looks when they decide to let us see it.

    What you are describing is exactly smashing one button over and over again...  The same as the other tanks.  They all have an "incite" (taunt) ability for snap agro along with other threat generating skills.  Having a constant threat over time would be exactly what would differentiate the tank role for just being able to grab agro (like I'm certain any class will be able to do through healing/dmg/or actual taunts like the monk's Iron Palm.

    @Fragile - threat over time will be the exact opposite of boring IMO.  This will require multiple tanks to actually have skill in order to maintain which tank has threat and will really separate the button mashers from the good players.

    Or you can have all tanks tank differently, that way they don't all feel the same, and find another way of generateing threat.  I agree with Fragile on this one having an ability the generates threat over time like how the DL does seems boring to me, but i can see how some players could like that form of tanking so they can enjoy it by picking the tank that gives you the type of tanking, So have the paladin be different, no reason to have the tanks mirror each toher when their are obviously other ways of creating threat, and what i mentioned wasn't smashing one button over and over again i clearly said have Fervant Strike be the "Filler," as it clearly creates wraith whcih than should open up oppotunities to use your more powerful abilities and have the class actually shine the way it suppose too.  And how you thought that means it all just smashing one button is completely up to you but thats definately not how i see it.

    • 388 posts
    December 25, 2019 7:47 PM PST

    3) In previous MMO’s aggro caused by healing was usually half or a quarter of what damage would be (in terms of 1-to-1 hate), what are the plans for Healing aggro?

    On the Holiday stream, Joppa confirmed that as of right now - Healing and Damage threat are both 1:1 ratios. This (though I doubt it stays this way) is very significant for Paladin hate, and currently good news.

    • 66 posts
    December 30, 2019 3:37 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    3) In previous MMO’s aggro caused by healing was usually half or a quarter of what damage would be (in terms of 1-to-1 hate), what are the plans for Healing aggro?

    On the Holiday stream, Joppa confirmed that as of right now - Healing and Damage threat are both 1:1 ratios. This (though I doubt it stays this way) is very significant for Paladin hate, and currently good news.

     

    I am not sure if this is a good thing as if it maintains 1:1, healers on big fights especially with widespread heals may pull as much aggro as the DPS.

    Now if there was a way to alter stats with gear such as some items decrease healing aggro by 25%, and another could increase it by the same amount may fix this possible issue.

    • 388 posts
    December 30, 2019 5:08 PM PST

    If you have seen any of the streams with Hate/Dmg meter rolling (from Dev streams), you can see that healing threat for healers is a non-issue when compared to the amount of hate generated. Usually it's like 3 to 1 ratio, with tank threat thwarting healing aggro.


    This post was edited by Fragile at December 30, 2019 7:26 PM PST
    • 546 posts
    December 30, 2019 5:10 PM PST

    Tahoe said:

    Fragile said:

    3) In previous MMO’s aggro caused by healing was usually half or a quarter of what damage would be (in terms of 1-to-1 hate), what are the plans for Healing aggro?

    On the Holiday stream, Joppa confirmed that as of right now - Healing and Damage threat are both 1:1 ratios. This (though I doubt it stays this way) is very significant for Paladin hate, and currently good news.

     

    I am not sure if this is a good thing as if it maintains 1:1, healers on big fights especially with widespread heals may pull as much aggro as the DPS.

    Now if there was a way to alter stats with gear such as some items decrease healing aggro by 25%, and another could increase it by the same amount may fix this possible issue.

    Why should they generate less aggro than dps though? Any decent tactician focuses their first strikes at either glass cannons or healers - medium armored dpses are left for later. In most situations groups could tackle content without dpses (they'd be just terrible slow doing that), but they would not last long without a healer. If enemies/monsters wouldn't recognize that, it would mean that AI is quite poor and the game wouldn't be as challenging as it should.