@vjek
Maybe a model like this...
https://images.app.goo.gl/EqhYPguXPpmCrvbc7
Except that wouldn't solve the problem of griefers blocking doorways and mailboxes as was the original intent of removing the model (later interpreted as invisible)
I'd say whether or not player models, under any conditions, block or not, could be an entirely separate topic from possible feature enhancements to /ignore.
If you want my opinion, though, I don't think player models should ever block another players movements.
I don't see the value that it adds, outside of possibly a game designed entirely around PvP, and even then, where I have seen it done? Wasn't particularly fun, challenging, or compelling for me or anyone I knew.
Objectively, what does permitting players to block other players movements offer, positively? I'm having trouble coming up with a list, myself ( outside of pointless opinion debates) .
vjek said:I'd say whether or not player models, under any conditions, block or not, could be an entirely separate topic from possible feature enhancements to /ignore.
If you want my opinion, though, I don't think player models should ever block another players movements.
I don't see the value that it adds, outside of possibly a game designed entirely around PvP, and even then, where I have seen it done? Wasn't particularly fun, challenging, or compelling for me or anyone I knew.
Objectively, what does permitting players to block other players movements offer, positively? I'm having trouble coming up with a list, myself ( outside of pointless opinion debates) .
I have to agree with you. What real benefit is gained by allowing someone to block my path? Does that level of realism provide value added fun that is more than its chance to be exploited?
Well, people (myself included) have often stated a "real benifit" and what value it adds. That this reasoning is unimportant to you guys makes it no less "real" or that ithe has aNY lessential value to some players..
In this thread and many others people have repeatedly mentioned how phoney it feels to be able to just run right through other players like they aren't even there.
So specifically to address the /ignore and collison the one major zone in EQ I can think of where this was an issue was the entrance to SolB. An Ogre could sit down and block the entrance. There is no amount of talking or socializing to resolve this issue. EQ was ideally the height of social MMO's and if people exploited systems then they will surely do it now. A solution would be for VR to ensure the zone entrances are designed in a way to ensure 1-2 characters afk can't block it.
Now if the zones are going to have narrow choke points I would like a 10-30 second ability to let me pass through people. I like collision for normal gaming but I also don't enjoy when people exploit it to ruin someone elses experience.
Ignore should not make someone disapear from your screen. That would cause too many issues. If you need to block someone more than just their communications then I think that is a point where a GM needs to step in. Harrassment should not be accepted or allowed.
I'm not sure about ignoring the model and all, seems a little over the top.
"I thought you said you had a full group and I was the last spot?"
"You are, and this a full group, is the rest of the group on your ignore list?"
"Oh, hi guys =P"
Zorkon said:Well, people (myself included) have often stated a "real benifit" and what value it adds. That this reasoning is unimportant to you guys makes it no less "real" or that ithe has aNY lessential value to some players..
In this thread and many others people have repeatedly mentioned how phoney it feels to be able to just run right through other players like they aren't even there.
it's really not about the benefit i have a problem with.
i simply ask: does the benefit outweigh how the system can be exploited?
i mean, what's the point of completely ignoring someone if we are supposedly a community orientated playerbase putting emphasis on communication? it's essentially wiping their existence without consent.
the same arguement that players shouldn't be able to toggle one's appearance off could be made here.
in which case, we shouldn't even have the luxury at all to maintain the integrity in which the developers have envisioned for the game.
an ignore system is antithetical to having profound relationships whether good or bad.
okay i don't think i have anything else to add. hopefully i've given some worth to the thread.
no reason to have player collison, it honestly serves very little into the game, but can cuase bigger problems than what it would be worth even if you had some reasoning to have it. I can already see people blocking banks, entrances to cities and everything else, and i dont think i should simply have to /ignore people just to enter a city or even a bank, i should simply be able to get to anywhere i want becuase i want to get there. Plus have you forgotten how ogres used to sit in caves hip to hip right after a zoneline and watch everyone zone out as soon as the zone in or couldn't get past the entrance becuase the ogres didn't want to move.
Riahuf22 said:no reason to have player collison, it honestly serves very little into the game, but can cuase bigger problems than what it would be worth even if you had some reasoning to have it. I can already see people blocking banks, entrances to cities and everything else, and i dont think i should simply have to /ignore people just to enter a city or even a bank, i should simply be able to get to anywhere i want becuase i want to get there. Plus have you forgotten how ogres used to sit in caves hip to hip right after a zoneline and watch everyone zone out as soon as the zone in or couldn't get past the entrance becuase the ogres didn't want to move.
player collision changes the importance of positioning. it would be odd for them not to have it since they are boasting the importance of the environment.
it's not like a soft collision system can't be put into play. meaning, i can push through a crowd of people, i think it's referred to as 'bump collision'.
going back and looking at some of the streams, it appears that there is a type of soft collision system and not a 'hard collision' in play that everyone is dreading.
bdo uses a soft collision system out of combat, but if you're engaged, it changes the player to have hard collision. note that another player not in combat can still push through. both would have to be in combat mode for hard collision to occur between the two.
for pvp, raid bosses and dungeon crawling, it's interesting to have the collision system as it adds depth to the game environment.
stellarmind said:
player collision changes the importance of positioning. it would be odd for them not to have it since they are boasting the importance of the environment.
Specifically as it relates to agro range. If you are trying to occupy a small ledge to fight on it's much easier if there is no collision, everyone just stacks inside each other. If there is player collision you have to ensure there is enough space fore veryone to stand, fight, and do positions. It adds ad epth of strategy to the game.
As for people who think that since this game isn't F2P the game community is going to be worlds better... yeah not gonna happen. Player blocking with bodies happened in EQ. It will happen in this game. Training people on person will happen in this game.
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:no reason to have player collison, it honestly serves very little into the game, but can cuase bigger problems than what it would be worth even if you had some reasoning to have it. I can already see people blocking banks, entrances to cities and everything else, and i dont think i should simply have to /ignore people just to enter a city or even a bank, i should simply be able to get to anywhere i want becuase i want to get there. Plus have you forgotten how ogres used to sit in caves hip to hip right after a zoneline and watch everyone zone out as soon as the zone in or couldn't get past the entrance becuase the ogres didn't want to move.
player collision changes the importance of positioning. it would be odd for them not to have it since they are boasting the importance of the environment.
it's not like a soft collision system can't be put into play. meaning, i can push through a crowd of people, i think it's referred to as 'bump collision'.
going back and looking at some of the streams, it appears that there is a type of soft collision system and not a 'hard collision' in play that everyone is dreading.
bdo uses a soft collision system out of combat, but if you're engaged, it changes the player to have hard collision. note that another player not in combat can still push through. both would have to be in combat mode for hard collision to occur between the two.
for pvp, raid bosses and dungeon crawling, it's interesting to have the collision system as it adds depth to the game environment.
Devs have alrdy mentioned they probably won't be using player collison in a stream a long time ago with cohh, now things could of changed, but they mentioned that they weren't going to have it for some of the reasons i alrdy said.
Riahuf22 said:Devs have alrdy mentioned they probably won't be using player collison in a stream a long time ago with cohh, now things could of changed, but they mentioned that they weren't going to have it for some of the reasons i alrdy said.
oh. i didn't know that. thanks for the bit of info.
ehhh. that would be a disappointment considering so much emphasis on the environment and immersion >.>
it feels cheap when i can run through people, as in it dulls the immersion that a player is occupying the space. alot of the old school mmos do this due to old school engine designs. more recent mmos have at least a type of soft collision or gives the illusion, that another player is actually there(a slight delay of character movement and an animation bump).
just to clarify, i can understand where hard collision has it's downside. for anyone that has played skyrim, npcs blocking passages are super annoying. when done intentionally by another player, can be super frustrating(quite frankly i'd just play on a pvp server so this isn't an issue and a reason i'd kill players in my own faction if such a thing exists).
stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Devs have alrdy mentioned they probably won't be using player collison in a stream a long time ago with cohh, now things could of changed, but they mentioned that they weren't going to have it for some of the reasons i alrdy said.
oh. i didn't know that. thanks for the bit of info.
ehhh. that would be a disappointment considering so much emphasis on the environment and immersion >.>
it feels cheap when i can run through people, as in it dulls the immersion that a player is occupying the space. alot of the old school mmos do this due to old school engine designs. more recent mmos have at least a type of soft collision or gives the illusion, that another player is actually there(a slight delay of character movement and an animation bump).
just to clarify, i can understand where hard collision has it's downside. for anyone that has played skyrim, npcs blocking passages are super annoying. when done intentionally by another player, can be super frustrating(quite frankly i'd just play on a pvp server so this isn't an issue and a reason i'd kill players in my own faction if such a thing exists).
Yes, I recall them saying that as well, it wasn’t a hard NO (so far they have given very few absolutes), but no player collision is the way they are leaning. And I believe for the reasons pointed out in this thread. And also believe the reasons are not invalid. In my personal experience (5 years in EQ with Player collision), I only had one time player collision caused me any problem, (And I don't consider one time as justification to take so much from the world) Blocked in a bank on my ranger and needed to call in a druid friend to port me out. BIG inconvenience if I played the mad dash to 60, but we always played more like “well what adventure does the game have in store for us today?” and on that day the adventure started out with “Get Lowan unstuck from the bank” Not the end of the world. Player generated quest.
Also thanks’ for the reasons you put out in favor of Player Collision, exactly how I see it but you put it so much better as well as added a few reasons I had missed.
My thoughts of including this with the ignore command were about escaping such situations as I pointed out above, as well as the reputation of another player that repeatedly did things like that intentionally. Defiantly didn’t think it through far enough, as there are lot’s of holes in it with invisible ignored players running around, but just searching for solutions brainstorming ideas.
Of which I really like that Soft collision you bring up (not attached to the Ignore obviously) something where they couldn’t totally block you, but you couldn’t run straight through the middle of a flash mob of players like they weren’t even there (where it would be more efficient to go around) I really like that as a compromise for no collision at all.
Zorkon said:stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Devs have alrdy mentioned they probably won't be using player collison in a stream a long time ago with cohh, now things could of changed, but they mentioned that they weren't going to have it for some of the reasons i alrdy said.
oh. i didn't know that. thanks for the bit of info.
ehhh. that would be a disappointment considering so much emphasis on the environment and immersion >.>
it feels cheap when i can run through people, as in it dulls the immersion that a player is occupying the space. alot of the old school mmos do this due to old school engine designs. more recent mmos have at least a type of soft collision or gives the illusion, that another player is actually there(a slight delay of character movement and an animation bump).
just to clarify, i can understand where hard collision has it's downside. for anyone that has played skyrim, npcs blocking passages are super annoying. when done intentionally by another player, can be super frustrating(quite frankly i'd just play on a pvp server so this isn't an issue and a reason i'd kill players in my own faction if such a thing exists).
Yes, I recall them saying that as well, it wasn’t a hard NO (so far they have given very few absolutes), but no player collision is the way they are leaning. And I believe for the reasons pointed out in this thread. And also believe the reasons are not invalid. In my personal experience (5 years in EQ with Player collision), I only had one time player collision caused me any problem, (And I don't consider one time as justification to take so much from the world) Blocked in a bank on my ranger and needed to call in a druid friend to port me out. BIG inconvenience if I played the mad dash to 60, but we always played more like “well what adventure does the game have in store for us today?” and on that day the adventure started out with “Get Lowan unstuck from the bank” Not the end of the world. Player generated quest.
Also thanks’ for the reasons you put out in favor of Player Collision, exactly how I see it but you put it so much better as well as added a few reasons I had missed.
My thoughts of including this with the ignore command were about escaping such situations as I pointed out above, as well as the reputation of another player that repeatedly did things like that intentionally. Defiantly didn’t think it through far enough, as there are lot’s of holes in it with invisible ignored players running around, but just searching for solutions brainstorming ideas.
Of which I really like that Soft collision you bring up (not attached to the Ignore obviously) something where they couldn’t totally block you, but you couldn’t run straight through the middle of a flash mob of players like they weren’t even there (where it would be more efficient to go around) I really like that as a compromise for no collision at all.
Well, you must of gotten lucky, i know me on a pvp server as a dark elf i was constantly getting blocked from my bank and the entrance of lguk being filled up with ogres and trolls, granted i don't think it was entirely their fault, as their model was naturally very large and simply just being in the middle meant they basically filled the entire thing up almost but 2 basically made it a done deal.
Riahuf22 said:Zorkon said:stellarmind said:Riahuf22 said:Devs have alrdy mentioned they probably won't be using player collison in a stream a long time ago with cohh, now things could of changed, but they mentioned that they weren't going to have it for some of the reasons i alrdy said.
oh. i didn't know that. thanks for the bit of info.
ehhh. that would be a disappointment considering so much emphasis on the environment and immersion >.>
it feels cheap when i can run through people, as in it dulls the immersion that a player is occupying the space. alot of the old school mmos do this due to old school engine designs. more recent mmos have at least a type of soft collision or gives the illusion, that another player is actually there(a slight delay of character movement and an animation bump).
just to clarify, i can understand where hard collision has it's downside. for anyone that has played skyrim, npcs blocking passages are super annoying. when done intentionally by another player, can be super frustrating(quite frankly i'd just play on a pvp server so this isn't an issue and a reason i'd kill players in my own faction if such a thing exists).
Yes, I recall them saying that as well, it wasn’t a hard NO (so far they have given very few absolutes), but no player collision is the way they are leaning. And I believe for the reasons pointed out in this thread. And also believe the reasons are not invalid. In my personal experience (5 years in EQ with Player collision), I only had one time player collision caused me any problem, (And I don't consider one time as justification to take so much from the world) Blocked in a bank on my ranger and needed to call in a druid friend to port me out. BIG inconvenience if I played the mad dash to 60, but we always played more like “well what adventure does the game have in store for us today?” and on that day the adventure started out with “Get Lowan unstuck from the bank” Not the end of the world. Player generated quest.
Also thanks’ for the reasons you put out in favor of Player Collision, exactly how I see it but you put it so much better as well as added a few reasons I had missed.
My thoughts of including this with the ignore command were about escaping such situations as I pointed out above, as well as the reputation of another player that repeatedly did things like that intentionally. Defiantly didn’t think it through far enough, as there are lot’s of holes in it with invisible ignored players running around, but just searching for solutions brainstorming ideas.
Of which I really like that Soft collision you bring up (not attached to the Ignore obviously) something where they couldn’t totally block you, but you couldn’t run straight through the middle of a flash mob of players like they weren’t even there (where it would be more efficient to go around) I really like that as a compromise for no collision at all.
Well, you must of gotten lucky, i know me on a pvp server as a dark elf i was constantly getting blocked from my bank and the entrance of lguk being filled up with ogres and trolls, granted i don't think it was entirely their fault, as their model was naturally very large and simply just being in the middle meant they basically filled the entire thing up almost but 2 basically made it a done deal.
Nope didn't get lucky, sounds like I just have a different perception of things. I often had to squeeze by those big guys blocking paths (they are big, they should block small spaces) I handled it by
/tell Thudder "Hey can you please scoot your fat ass over so I can get by"
They would generally respond with a "sorry" and some comment about his ass being small, I should see his moma's or some other interaction between two players and I would be on my way.
It seems you are considering this a negative interaction, where I'm considering it a positive one as I now broke the ice with Thudder and recognize the name, may even add him to my friends list in case I'm ever looking for a meat shield for a group.
Now, IF I was in a rush to 60, he would just be an obstacle in my way and not fun, I understand!
The blocking I consider negative are the people that do it intentionally just to grief others. The guy blocking me in the bank, he had been doing it for days, I wasn't the only one being stuck in there, it was a popular spot for players to log out. I learned not to log out where I could be blocked in. Problem solved, not something they needed to turn everyone into holograms over to "fix" it.
EQOA had player collision and we would routinely place guildies on ignore during raids. Ignore allowed you to pass through someone, prevented you from seeing their public chat and /tells and prevented you from getting group/guild/trade invites, but you could still see them on screen. Ignored guildies could still communicate in guild chat, this came in handy when multiple people would need to hide behind the same pillar to get out of line of sight to avoid an AoE. This was a pain to deal with but it was the only option we had, /ignore 1 and 2 could be very useful but 3 would allow them to grief in other ways (instead of emote communicating or teabagging they could just stealth train you).
So it's somehow realistic and immersive for an elven enchantress to be able to block my ogre warrior like she's a steel wall imbedded in the rock below us and be utterly unresponsive to pleas to move because her consciousness is 'having a break AFK'?
But it's *not* immersive for me to use my suspension of disbelief and just walk through her as an analog to me pushing past with subtle movements from both of us that aren't practical to model in the game?
There is suspension of disbelief required for everything in a game like this (or any game). The question for mechanics like player collision is "are they functionally needed" and "do the pros outweigh the cons"?
If blocking other players was anything but a negative for gameplay, then you might have to put up with the negatives to get the desirable effects, but what are the gameplay positives of it?
As a compromise, though, perhaps collision could be turned off at problem places like zone lines and banks?
The soft collision thing could work too, though might be hard to develop and still cause blocking.
Sort of a tangential concept but I wonder how far we are from soft bounding boxes technologically. Basically each person would have say 5 zones attributed to their character: Attack range, defense range, comfortable space occupancy, squeezing space occupancy, and center of mass. The first two would have more to do with attack ranges both in pve and pvp. The second two would be boundaries for speed reduction and possible conditional penalties. The last would be the true position of your character as a point value.
Overlaping the zone between comfortable occupancy and squeezing would cause a movement penalty and partial cover vs everyone but the person you a invading their personal space. The squeeze zone would be an even greater penalty and higher relative cover. The center of gravity could also possibly become something that can move if each player has a total mass and each action has force and direction. Relative pushing and knockback could become a core part of the game engine.
A player could also try and use different terrain types and character sizes and masses to achieve different PVE effect. Big and heavy could restrict being pushed around much but you would be hampered a lot of the time. In turn though your strikes would have greater total force due to your own mass so pushing others would be much easier.
Again not sure how far we are on this technologically but it would solve a lot of the irritating issues of bounding boxes without going all the way to non-colision.
*edit addition*
Things like shields and martial arts stances could increase your Squeeze zone in a way that negatively effects your opponents but does not negatively affect you. Hmm this is an entirely new area of combat complexity that could drive a lot of non magnitude dependent character progression.
Shield wall could be an actual group manuever where multiple shield users actually become one big object with a hard bounding box but otherwise all bounding boxes would be soft
*end edit*
stellarmind said: Player collision adds challenge to gameplay. Eppe could express it better than me. Think of football or line dancing even synchronize swimming. Would it be the same if players could go through each other? Is it amazing to watch like that? Does it invoke the beauty of teamwork?
Then wouldn't player to player damage be acceptable as well. Don't stand within 6' of a group member swinging his sword.
Player collision also means, that unless a raid mob is huge, only half a dozen players at best will be in melee range, then rest of the raid will have to be all casters.