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Community Debate - Where do you draw the line between

    • 9115 posts
    November 14, 2019 3:58 AM PST

    Community Debate - Where do you draw the line between fun and challenge, when does the fun stop and the challenge just become too much in MMORPGs or is there such a thing as too much challenge? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    • 521 posts
    November 14, 2019 4:24 AM PST

    Fun all the way, I never do anything for the challenge.


    This post was edited by HemlockReaper at November 14, 2019 11:55 PM PST
    • 273 posts
    November 14, 2019 4:55 AM PST

    The fun is in the challenge, but the fun stops at the point where you (and your group/raid) playing your characters perfectly can't result in success due to RNG, imbalance, or lack of a progression path.

    • 107 posts
    November 14, 2019 5:00 AM PST
    Well, I play games for fun. But on the same note, being challenged is fun to me. I like to be made to think and develop skills that enable me to play my class better. If I play a game that is oversimplified or just spoon feeds me everything I need then that game quickly becomes boring which equates to no fun at all. Give me a challenge that once completed, I feel like I've actually accomplished something with my time. Too much challenge comes into play only when the task becomes too laborious to the point of monotony. Challenge for the sake of challenge isn't always fun. But for me to say where that line should be drawn, is a moot point. This is a topic that I feel is completely subjective.
    • 139 posts
    November 14, 2019 5:16 AM PST

    From what I understand most gamers don't actually finish most games they buy, Most games are either too challenging or not challenging enough. There's no obvious answer. 

    The important thing is to catch the imagination. The more someone is invested the more they will rise to the challenge. 

    • 1584 posts
    November 14, 2019 5:17 AM PST


    I think the correct way, it that they support each other, but the challenge shouldn't be to the point where you need a specific group.  I'm not saying not to have 1tank, 1healer, 1CC or 2, and 3DPS or 2, but more speific to where it like we are starting a grp and we want 2 Clerics, 1 Direlord, 1 Rogue, 1 Enchanter, 1 Wizard, i think this is the sort of thing we should try to avoid, to where it feels like their is a meta grp combo that simply trumps everything else.  Not saying their isn't going to be one, but n ot to the point if im Druid i simply don't find groups becuase im a druid and not a cleric or shaman.

    • 1315 posts
    November 14, 2019 5:25 AM PST

    This dips deeply into the difference between relaxation and recreation.  In this context relaxation is “fun” and challenge/feeling of accomplishment is recreation.  A good MMO really needs elements of both.  So long as there is a good distribution of Risk vs Reward scaled content then the difference between “Fun” and “challenging” will in fact make completing the “challenging” content feel like more of an accomplishment.

    I would deliberately create content that is virtually impossible to complete by players but have the highest rewards also come from said content.  That way there is always something to challenge between content releases.  For obvious reasons there will need to be more “fun” content than “challenging” content as there will be many more hours of consumption of “fun” content by the average player.  Fun also can include all of the non-combat fluff content like housing, decorating, player art and newspapers as well as player run contests.  The more in game mechanics that can be implemented to facilitate player made content the better, consider it the PVP of the carebear world.  Players who focus on player made content often have much lower burnout rates than those who a hyper focused on raiding or competitive PVP.

    • 99 posts
    November 14, 2019 5:41 AM PST

    To me challenge is fun, once it stops the fun usualy does too.

    Challenge to me means improving my character, or feeling the pressure of the content ahead. I usualy stop playing a game, once i feel i beat it, because at some point my character/s become extremely overpowered.

    But until then its usualy alot of fun to find a cool build. I like to min/max btw. Story doesnt interest me anymore, (it did alot when i started playing games) but after many many games u start seeing the limits of game worlds and story starts to loose alot of meaning since, ... real consequences are just not there, in games its all just fluff that has lil to no impact. Especialy in single player games. Lore still holds a meaning because a nice designed world can mean alot of fun, as long as there is some reality behind the lore which u can measure.

    Mmos are a different kind of beast they can be very challenging, unfortunatly modern mmos lack so much in terms of character uniqueness and group play being worthwhile, its really sad.


    This post was edited by Ondark at November 14, 2019 5:47 AM PST
    • 627 posts
    November 14, 2019 6:48 AM PST
    As impossible as possible let us try 100x times and still only just barly make it. (takling end game content). And yes rng is not fun, like a random 1 shot thats just there to make somthing hard, Thats not fun.

    To me a good challenge is fun, but it dont need to be that hard while lvling. You always need something to do even at max lvl, and if you compleate the game content and gather all your bis items, the fun instantly drops off especially if you cant use xp for anything.
    • 520 posts
    November 14, 2019 7:00 AM PST

    The fun is in the challenge, but it must be correctly balanced - the fights have to require some thinking and strategising - they absolutely cannot be all about auto-attacks and fast key slamming. Victory may require dying couple of times but after you learn your opponents tendencies  and set of abilities (and how to evade/counter them), defeating it should be result of your knowledge and not a fluke  (or anywhere close to it).

    • 70 posts
    November 14, 2019 7:01 AM PST

    Usually a tough challenges are fun to me.

    People stick a lot longer if things are diffiicult to achieve else its gets boring quick

     

     

    • 2419 posts
    November 14, 2019 7:26 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Where do you draw the line between fun and challenge, when does the fun stop and the challenge just become too much in MMORPGs or is there such a thing as too much challenge? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    Only when the challenge is due to bad programming and/or incomplete content falsely put out as complete and fully functioning.  Those horror stories about 9 hour PoFear raids where you had multiple full wipes and extremely taxing recoveries?  Challenging and extremely fun..for me anyway. 

    I look back to when the EQ1 expansion Planes of Power and guilds were about to break into PoTime yet the Rathe Council event in PoEarthB somehow could not be defeated only to find out later it was deliberaly unfinished because PoTime wasn't even finished.

    That was bullsh*t, but content being difficult, requiring significant investments of time and effort to learn the encounter?  Bring it on. Fun and Challenge share the same spectrum, fully. 

     


    This post was edited by Vandraad at November 14, 2019 7:27 AM PST
    • 1247 posts
    November 14, 2019 8:00 AM PST

    I think an mmorpg stops being both fun and challenging when it becomes a theme park  and nothing more. I suppose WoW started out as such, so I didn’t like any time period of WoW. There are 2 things that come to mind when I think of what has been learned over the past couple of decades. First is that an expansion can either enhance or break the game. For example, Kunark and Velious were widely considered to be favorable for their game. Planes of Power and others were considered to be unfavorable. The subscription trends (up/down) then followed accordingly (of course). Secondly, it is critical for Visionary Realms to be mindful of something else that we have learned: the vast majority of players do not even use the forums (just like we see right here). The tiniest minority of players are actually active on forums. And what we have seen over the years is an even tinier minority within that minority will ’team up’ and repeatedly whine and demand for changes to the game that they want. The troubling reality is that this small minority gives the notion that they represent the playerbase-at large since their whining repeatedly occurs on the game’s forums. Such a notion is actually false though. I hope Visionary Realms never caves into that and goes with what we have learned from history instead - that would be wise.

    One more thing to add: I think it is quite clear now that people are looking for an alternative to mainstream. I truly believe that the further Pantheon moves away from mainstream the better off it will be. Pantheon will be both appealing and something new, and with that comes inspiration. Imo, Pantheon must opt for inspiration from oldschool (regarded as substantial/challenging) when necessary instead of inspiration from mainstream. Ultimately, VR needs to make the game they want. 

    #communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels


    This post was edited by Syrif at November 14, 2019 8:20 AM PST
    • 220 posts
    November 14, 2019 9:19 AM PST

    Go back to your roots EQ1. (edit):Thats what made ff11 so good because you were leading.

    Thats FUN and Challenging!

     

    Your modern mmo are just for quick fun, challeng, action, ANTI-COMMUNITY  and colorful cosmetic theme. IT'S NOT FOR LONG-TERM INVESTMENT

     


    This post was edited by AbsoluteTerror at November 14, 2019 9:33 AM PST
    • 2138 posts
    November 14, 2019 9:27 AM PST

    The only example I can come up with is in Oblivion. Closing the first Gate was nervewracking and scary and all that good stuff. but after the 4th or 5th? It became just work. I get it if the intent was to have a sense of dread when a gate popped up, but this was like real life, soul draining, work making cold-calls because there is nothing else available right now, dread.  

    • 2756 posts
    November 14, 2019 10:15 AM PST

    Lack of challenge has, for me, been the largest downfall of the genre.  Games have simply become, for many reasons, too easy.

    The definition of 'fun' makes it hard to pitch one against the other, though.  Something can be fun without being a challenge, but as for MMORPGs, please, VR, err on the same of VERY CHALLENGING rather than risking it be too easy.

    Also, please let's not make challenge synonymous with competitive and contention.  The 'best' challenge is not defined by something being the most competitive or contentious.

    PvE challenge should be from killing monsters and surviving environments *with* other players, not from 'beating' or denying other players.  Contention and competitive is a by-product of Open World challenge, not an paragon to be idealised.

    (Note: I'm not saying there should not be competition and contention, but it should not be the ideal it has been held up to be in the past and if it is aimed for care should be taken to make it a fair challenge)


    This post was edited by disposalist at November 14, 2019 12:08 PM PST
    • 2752 posts
    November 14, 2019 10:51 AM PST

    The challenge is the main source of fun for me; overcoming encounters via skill is the lifeblood of enjoyment and ability to be gripped by a game.

     

    The main reason I don't seem to have much patience for most single player games these days comes down to not feeling challenged. Once I have learned a games systems and reach a point that I feel I am just going through the motions I will often just put the game to rest. 

    • 1428 posts
    November 14, 2019 11:04 AM PST

    this directly ties into flow state.  187 and i have talked about this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zna9-8RGQro

     

    this video is what it's like for a non gamer to game:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7f3JZJHSw

     

    the fun stops when the skill isn't enough to handle the challenge.

    the challenge stops when not enough skill is required to make it fun.

     

    since this is subjective, too challenging is a better than not challenging enough.

    as a developer, you can't make an easy encounter harder, but you can make a harder encounter easier.

     

    if you ask why?  simple.  challeging content builds community.  people sit around and talk.  booyah.


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at November 14, 2019 11:23 AM PST
    • 159 posts
    November 14, 2019 11:19 AM PST

    When it starts to feel like I have a job that I'm not getting paid for or it raises my blood pressure and angers me to the point I literally have to walk away and go outside while pacing around my yard until I calm down. That is when "for me" the game has stopped being fun = I soon stop playing and paying.

     

    Challenge is needed in game. It is a balancing act. { Lucky for me that is your job and not mine to figure out and incorporate it into the game } In my humble opinion challenge needs to be more focus on strategy. Due away with things like "hell levels" from the early days of EQ. Plus control CR's!!!!!!!  This act of encouraging people to explore the game world. Only to have that statement 90% ignore because people don't want to risk dying and spending hours{literally} trying to recover a corpse. Some time dying multilpe times in the process. That is not challenging to me. That is rage quit to me. I'm not talking about the 15 minute CR. I'm talking about the nightmare CR's that drive you insane.  Control CR's.    

    Stay away from any thing that can fall into the "keying system" category. Make us figure out things on our own and don't force us into the mundane grinding for items that have no purpose other than slowing us down from getting access to a zone. People alway get left behind in the progression to get to " X " zone. Because they have lives and can't always fit a raid time with their guild. Leads to a lot of frustration and causes people to leave game if it gets to bad. So in other words. Keying system is not fun.

     

    Many ways to bring back the nostalgia and make MMO's feel like a massively multiplayer online game again without forcing us into shared misery. 

    Don't have it where you can go from level 1 to 10+ in one day. Make levels count again.

     

    • 1247 posts
    November 14, 2019 11:41 AM PST

    AbsoluteTerror said:

    Go back to your roots EQ1. (edit):Thats what made ff11 so good because you were leading.

    Thats FUN and Challenging!

     

    Your modern mmo are just for quick fun, challeng, action, ANTI-COMMUNITY  and colorful cosmetic theme. IT'S NOT FOR LONG-TERM INVESTMENT

     

    Love this post so much. I just want to say thank you. :)

    • 1860 posts
    November 14, 2019 11:50 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Where do you draw the line between fun and challenge, when does the fun stop and the challenge just become too much in MMORPGs or is there such a thing as too much challenge? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    Defining "challenge" is a discussion that has been had repeatedly.

    Personally, I would prefer mob/encounter difficulty to be medium-ish+ with some explanation needed...

    There is definitely a line where an encounter is to difficult and they are not fun.  I can think of a few encounters that weren't beaten by anyone in the game until a future expansion came out.  We still tried to beat them hundreds of times but they were simply tuned to be to difficult. That is not fun.  There has to be a payoff within a reasonable amount of time.  There is an easy solution:

    Along with that medium or slightly harder difficulty level I prefer an extremely harsh penalties for failure.  This allows an eventual payoff but adds an additional challenge factor and forces a more focused style of gameplay.

    • 1785 posts
    November 14, 2019 12:02 PM PST

    I mentioned this in my twitter response earlier, but I'm not a fan of things being hard just for the sake of being hard.  There should be a reason behind the challenge we face in gameplay, and I'm not talking about shinier loot or bragging rights either.  If you can give me a valid, in-character reason to be fighting monsters, or delving into a dungeon, then bring on the challenge.  Make it hard.  Make it tough.  I'm all for that.  But don't just tune something high and use better loot to justify it being tuned that high.

    By the same token, there *is* a line where challenge becomes exclusionary.  Most of the voices on this forum - including my own - are from players that will invest a LOT of time in the game.  Not only that, but we have a lot of experience in MMORPGs in general, and so you might say we're kind of good at this sort of gameplay.  We want to be challenged, ourselves, but VR needs to be careful.  If they create content that is so challenging that you have to be in a "hardcore" guild or have a super specific class makeup in your group to even attempt it, then that's content that will never be seen by average players.

    I think the key thing that I would want VR to remember is that it's the baseline level of challenge that's important, more than anything.  Too many games flat out put their gameplay on "easy mode" in the name of accessibility, and then try to make up for it by adding higher difficulty raids.  This is a bad formula.  The playerbase gets trained that everything will be easy, and then they get resentful when they get to that raid and it's actually challenging.  A better formula, in my opinion, is making *everything* challenging from the get go.  Fights should be tough, and death should be a real possibility, starting at level ONE.  It doesn't matter whether you're trying to kill that fire beetle outside the city gates, or whether you and a couple of friends are taking on a bandit, or your group is in a dungeon.  Every encounter should have a baseline challenge that forces players to learn how to play the game well.  Then for your really hard stuff, your bosses and whatnot, you can amp it up a bit further.  This way, people will be used to challenge and they'll relish it - again, assuming that it's not set up so that it's exclusionary.

    It's probably also worth mentioning that level progression doesn't equate to challenge.  Timesinks and grinds aren't challenging.  Gating content behind something else doesn't constitute making it challenging.  Challenge is when there's real risk involved, a possibility of failure at that specific point in time.  A challenging quest is one that requires us to fight through a dungeon full of tough encounters to complete it.  A challenging fight is one where we have to think and respond to what the enemies are doing, and we can't just roll through it on mental autopilot.  A challenging mystery is one where the clues are not obvious and we have to really put thought and time into figuring it out.  Challenging progression is when we finally admit that level means pretty much nothing, and if we want to get stronger, we have to journey to distant lands and overcome other challenges to learn new skills and abilities or acquire better items to use.

    • 416 posts
    November 14, 2019 12:45 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    I think the key thing that I would want VR to remember is that it's the baseline level of challenge that's important, more than anything.  Too many games flat out put their gameplay on "easy mode" in the name of accessibility, and then try to make up for it by adding higher difficulty raids.  This is a bad formula.  The playerbase gets trained that everything will be easy, and then they get resentful when they get to that raid and it's actually challenging.  A better formula, in my opinion, is making *everything* challenging from the get go.  Fights should be tough, and death should be a real possibility, starting at level ONE.  It doesn't matter whether you're trying to kill that fire beetle outside the city gates, or whether you and a couple of friends are taking on a bandit, or your group is in a dungeon.  Every encounter should have a baseline challenge that forces players to learn how to play the game well.  Then for your really hard stuff, your bosses and whatnot, you can amp it up a bit further.  This way, people will be used to challenge and they'll relish it - again, assuming that it's not set up so that it's exclusionary.

    It's probably also worth mentioning that level progression doesn't equate to challenge.  Timesinks and grinds aren't challenging.  Gating content behind something else doesn't constitute making it challenging.  Challenge is when there's real risk involved, a possibility of failure at that specific point in time.  A challenging quest is one that requires us to fight through a dungeon full of tough encounters to complete it.  A challenging fight is one where we have to think and respond to what the enemies are doing, and we can't just roll through it on mental autopilot.  A challenging mystery is one where the clues are not obvious and we have to really put thought and time into figuring it out.  Challenging progression is when we finally admit that level means pretty much nothing, and if we want to get stronger, we have to journey to distant lands and overcome other challenges to learn new skills and abilities or acquire better items to use.

    Count on Nephele to hit the nail on the head with a well articulated post. This exactly.

    • 724 posts
    November 14, 2019 12:45 PM PST

    I am definitely not elite, but I consider myself a competent player in most games I played. That means I know my class/role well, and have a fairly good understanding of other classes and their skills too. I have good gear, but probably not BIS (yet). I know the game world quite well and have made friends and allies. And I have likeminded player friends and guildies and am practiced in playing together with them.

    IMO most content of a game should be doable* at such a level of commitment (in numbers maybe 70-80% of the game's content). The rest can have higher requirements, from the player learning to play their class optimally, to investing a lot on the gear side, but certainly also from gaining more in in-game knowledge, perfecting team work etc.

    * "Doable" does not mean it should be easy on the first attempt!

    The fun stops for me when:
    - a game requires too much "twitch" skill (I don't have superhuman reflexes)
    - time invested becomes considered equal to challenging (I do agree that some persistence is to be expected from a player, but ultra rare drops from ultra rare mobs are not fun for me, just tiring)
    - the gear treadmilll becomes the definition of challenging (gear should be a means to an end)

     

    • 1428 posts
    November 14, 2019 12:48 PM PST

    Sarim said:

    I am definitely not elite, but I consider myself a competent player in most games I played. That means I know my class/role well, and have a fairly good understanding of other classes and their skills too. I have good gear, but probably not BIS (yet). I know the game world quite well and have made friends and allies. And I have likeminded player friends and guildies and am practiced in playing together with them.

    IMO most content of a game should be doable* at such a level of commitment (in numbers maybe 70-80% of the game's content). The rest can have higher requirements, from the player learning to play their class optimally, to investing a lot on the gear side, but certainly also from gaining more in in-game knowledge, perfecting team work etc.

    * "Doable" does not mean it should be easy on the first attempt!

    The fun stops for me when:
    - a game requires too much "twitch" skill (I don't have superhuman reflexes)
    - time invested becomes considered equal to challenging (I do agree that some persistence is to be expected from a player, but ultra rare drops from ultra rare mobs are not fun for me, just tiring)
    - the gear treadmilll becomes the definition of challenging (gear should be a means to an end)

     

    i have a hunch there really isn't going to be a bis.  acclimation is going to curb the end all be all gear(speculation).