oneADseven said:dorotea said:The only reason to allow us to be seen wearing things we actually are *not* wearing is to generate sales for an in-game store. No store - no need for this nonsense.
Appearance slots are not automatically tied to an in-game store. Pantheon isn't going to have a cash shop so that should never be a concern. There are several reasons to allow "appearance slots" -- I mentioned one of the more important ones in my previous post. As the game ages, certain gear will become "dated" -- once the stats on gear becomes unviable, the value of that gear will reduce dramatically. The allowance of appearance slots changes that dynamic. Instead of the "magma-forged spaulders" becoming irrelevant, specifically because there are other shoulders with better stats, which are also easier to come by ... those magma-forged spaulders may still have value/demand if the appearance of those shoulders is unique. Appearance slots actually go a long way toward adding perceived value to gear. This improves the relevance of older content and boosts the earlier tiers of the economy. Perceived value is entirely player-driven and there are many positives for facilitating those emergent constructs with game design.
I think Dorotea is right. I don’t like the idea of appearance slots. Gear achieved should be shown as is. Whether it’s old or new is the player’s choice if he/she wants to wear it; plain and simple. If there is an in-game wedding and someone wants to wear a white robe/dress for the occasion, then so be it. Gear should also be as is.
Doford said:dorotea said:I would be happy with no appearance options at all. Let's have some realism here. If I am wearing plate mail why in the name of all Gods should someone look at me and see me in a bikini? Or even cloth armor.
The only reason to allow us to be seen wearing things we actually are *not* wearing is to generate sales for an in-game store. No store - no need for this nonsense.
An option to have the player see the character in "pretend" gear isn't nearly as bad as one that inflicts this on other players though I don't see the need to waste resources on this.
If VR is going the "pretend gear" route at an irreducable minimum give us an option to disable it.
In games letting me check boxes to hide head armor and cloaks I always use these. Hey - I spent a lot of time getting my hair just right. But I would gladly sacrifice these options if the bottom line was that we always saw all characters as they actually were.
I agree completely. Nice 2500 post dorotea.
Yes — that is very well explained Dorotea, thank you! I definitely agree. Gear only shown as it was intended to be in the first place.
I whould quite enjoy some variant of what was present in the Grim Down - we could change a visuals of our gears to the gear that we once were in posession of - though including the item type - so wearing cloth armor you could only change it to be a cloth armor and not a plate mail.
After all what is a robe with +50 to all stats - it doesnt have to be green Robe of Wisdom of Archsage Joppa - it is a piece of cloth enchanted with powerful spell - the style of the robe shouldn't matter and it's far from unique artifact if half of the players have it anyway ....
Hegenox said:I whould quite enjoy some variant of what was present in the Grim Down - we could change a visuals of our gears to the gear that we once were in posession of - though including the item type - so wearing cloth armor you could only change it to be a cloth armor and not a plate mail.
I think those kind of restrictions make sense. When it comes to this topic I will always fall back to my experience in EQOA. Rubicite Armor was extremely rare and hard to come by. The main value of that armor was based on player perception -- the stats weren't that great and because of that, there weren't many (any?) opportunities to wear the armor while out in the field. At the same time ... rubicite armor had one of the coolest appearances in the game. Red plate! Since EQOA didn't have appearance slots, though, the only time you could really wear that armor was while you were in town. Farming a full set of rubicite armor was a meaningful accomplishment, in my eyes. Appearance slots would qualify as a type of horizontal progression that players could spend some of their time on, if they feel inclined.
If the game isn't going to have transmog then everyone is going to end up looking the same, or well mostly everyone.
Once you reach endgame and are wearing gear simply for stats it's a sea of boring. The same models everywhere, no customization, no inviduality. Just a sea of bleh where the only thing different is what race they are and the name tag above your head.
I'm not really one for saying add pig costumes or santa hats or things like that, but there had better be a way to stand out. My halfling ranger for instance doesn't want to blend in with every other ranger. There better be a way to add accesories, change colors, add trinkets or things I've found to my outfit, something to make my character not look the same as everyone else. It's nice being able to show off the rare awesome armor you've earned and to be able to look at someone and know what they've done, but it's also great not to be a clone.
Hegenox said:I whould quite enjoy some variant of what was present in the Grim Down - we could change a visuals of our gears to the gear that we once were in posession of - though including the item type - so wearing cloth armor you could only change it to be a cloth armor and not a plate mail.
The big problem with that is it changes the unique appearance of the item earned. If I am camping a mob for a Robe of the Oracle because I like the stats and/or appearance of that robe, then that is something that I worked for and earned. I don’t want someone else to just change the appearance of the item entirely into another item simply “because he/she wants to.” Hegenox: while I can see that idea being in other games, I think that would be bad to have in Pantheon imo. I can see various dyes, unique racials, and item enhancements via quests keeping gear distinct though.
Doford said:It would be cool if dress clothing sat on armour and leather so players could dress themselves up while still staying functional.
This is pretty much the point of having appearance slots in the first place. It's a good compromise that VR confirmed as the plan several years ago. I think some folks get the wrong impression of how the appearance slots work and assume that a cosmetic shop would be attached. That isn't the case at all. There would be no cosmetic shop ... no bikinis, swan inflatables, Santa hats, or other ridiculous graphics that are typically found in a cash shop. The only gear that can be placed in an appearance slot is that which is legitimately earned in game. If VR wants to add roleplaying gear such as tuxedos and dresses they can do that and disable them from qualifying for appearance slots.
I can't stand seeing a character that should be financially established and a decorated hero (high level character) that looks like a ****** clown BECAUSE the game forces them to. If they are trying to roleplay an extravagant/flamboyant bard with loud colors that's one thing, but if an expansion comes out and your level 50 gear that you worked months on collecting and matching has to be replaced with new gear that makes you look like Ronald McDonald and cannot be changed... that makes me want to punch someone in the face lol!
Darch said:I can't stand seeing a character that should be financially established and a decorated hero (high level character) that looks like a ****** clown BECAUSE the game forces them to. If they are trying to roleplay an extravagant/flamboyant bard with loud colors that's one thing, but if an expansion comes out and your level 50 gear that you worked months on collecting and matching has to be replaced with new gear that makes you look like Ronald McDonald and cannot be changed... that makes me want to punch someone in the face lol!
How about quest and actually work to enhance your lvl 50 gear instead. Or dye it. :) I think dated-gear enhancement and/or dyes and the like would help fix that.
known for accomplishments. while it is cool to be able to customize the aesthetics, clear and concise information is more desirable.
(pvp perspective)
if someone is approaching me i want to know if they are dangerous or not. suppose a warrior wearing full dragon slaying armour and has a chaotic sword of taifon, i'd know to start hauling ass not stand there and fight.
a huge part of pvp entails deception, decision-making and awareness at the highest levels. concealing the strength of equipment alters the mental state of an opponent.
for example, if the same warrior was in a farmer's clothes and a pitchfork, i'm not expecting him to 1 shot me so i'm going to stand my ground.
I like the option to change appearances, be it hair or equipment appearances.
I'd very much prefer having a toggle for seeing other people in adventure or cosmetic gear, being able to switch it on or off depending on mood or what task I am attempting seems pretty beneficial to me. Just about every MMO I have played with cosmetic options has made me wish I had a toggle for this, especially when I played FFXIV *shiver*.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
Earned.
That said, I know alot of people really like th alter their character's appearance through dyes, etc. So rather than coming down on the one side of the issue, you let people alter their character but you give everyone the option to ignore those changes. If I want to see them in the gear as it should be seen, I want to see it that way. Let the character see themsevles as they wish, but do not force me to see them that way.
I will start by saying, I don't care what my character looks like for the most part.
I liked the way EQ2 did appearance gear at the start. You could equip gear you had earned and was equipable by your race/class/level in an appearance slot which overroad the graphics of your 'actually equiped' gear.
Fashion questing is a huge part of games these days and if ignored entirely will turn a huge player base off of the game. I think having a system that allows players to tailor their look, even just a little, would add greatly to the appeal of the game. Speaking of 'tailor', if appearance-only items do make their way into the game, make them crafted, dropped, deconstructable, useless beyond appearance, tradable (if not attuned or something). Whatever you do, do NOT put them in a market where people can spend RL cash monies to accessorize. Please try to completely avoid cash shops even if they don't offer any 'pay to win' junk in them. I detested the simple idea of cash shops, especially in a subscription based game.
Also, as mentioned by many this this thread, please give us the option to disable appearance-only items on others. Some of us can't stand seeing all the ridiculous outfits as it ruins immersion.
In conclusion, I am not opposed to fashion questing and I believe it WILL make it's way into the game (hopefully not prioritized for launch), just please don't make me look at it.
Here is an excerpt from a previous newsletter:
How will armor look different on each race? Is it just smaller or is it a unique design?
Chris: In general, it will just be a smaller or larger thing depending on your race. The armor model will not change whether it's a Human or an Ogre or a Halfling wearing the piece.
We chose to move away from connecting armor aesthetic to Race because we wanted the item's own identity to be the iconic thing. When you see a particular breastplate, we want you to say, "Whoa, that's the Cuirass of the Watcher" instead of "That's an Ogre breastplate".
That being said, we do have the ability to use overlay textures in the armor materials to create the appearance of marking, scrapes, runes, bone, etc. to give certain items that Racial or cultural flair.
It has been stated numerous times over the years that VR wants the appearance of gear to be iconic. For that reason, I think a dye system would detract from that very important underlying goal. If I see someone wearing a full set of blood-red plate (within a specific model tree) I should know, immediately, that the player in question had earned a full set of hypothetical rubicite. If there is another easily obtainable set that shares the same model (likely scenario) and players could simply dye the color to blood-red ... you lose the iconic value of what rubicite is supposed to represent. Appearance slots offer the best of both worlds. Allowing players to toggle appearance slots on/off seems like a fair compromise.
From that same newsletter:
What are the aesthetics of gear progression like? Will you be able to tell roughly how high level someone is just by looking at them?
Will: Currently we are trying out a multi-tiered system per armor set. This will give each armor set a unique look/silhouette according to tier, but also retain the general look of that armor set. We also have in-engine tools to modify the age, grunginess, amount of dirt/mold and so on.
Chris: We want players to feel a genuine sense of rags to riches in Pantheon. And so we want to be thoughtful about how quickly we roll out higher tier armors. So yes, you should be able to tell how high level someone is just by looking at them. That's the goal.
I also want to make an important point that while we are creating these Armors in sets, this doesn't mean everyone will always be in a matching set of armor. Quite the contrary I would expect. Putting together a full, matching set of armor will be a rarer accomplishment. And just because pieces may look the same, doesn't mean each piece is part of the same "set". I'll speak more on that later.
At lower levels, it will be the norm to see players in more of a mismatched ensemble of gear, since they're using whatever they can get their hands on without the luxury of going after specific pieces beyond their level range. And so part of the rags to riches equation will be seeing higher levels players getting closer to a matching set look.
The highlighted section above speaks to why appearance slots are so important. Obtaining a full matching set of armor should be a rare accomplishment. Allowing players to show off that accomplishment via appearance slots will be great for the game as it extends the shelf-life of item relevance significantly. Years after the game launches ... players may still want to go out of their way to earn a full set of midnight black leather from a mid-level zone because of its unique look. Even though the stats might be awful compared to other stuff the player already has, the game would facilitate this kind of player-driven goal by making gear more meaningful than the stats provided.
As far as appearance slots being tied to a cash shop, here is a quote from Aradune: (02/22/2017)
"Cosmetic items still have to be earned, either a drop, a quest reward, or bought for in-game currency. Please de-couple cosmetic items with the need for a cash shop -- unnecessary."
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5400/question-about-the-new-faq/view/page/3
Syrif said:In regards to the part of what is highlighted as Joppa/Chris saying above, ^ gear will be even more iconic and unique than what I suggested. That is terrific! :)
Indeed. Earning a full set of matching gear should be considered a rare accomplishment in and of itself. Appearance slots allow those accomplishments to carry more weight than what was observed in some of the earlier games. If EQOA offered appearance slots, the accomplishment of earning a full set of rubicite would have been more meaningful. This is a good quality-of-life improvement for players but more important than that, it's healthy for the game as a whole.
BamBam said: Dyes sure, Item apperance change No thx..
Yea, that is true. Even many years ago people came up with some neat looking appearances with their dyes. I can see it going either way in Pantheon. I do like an item being unique and iconic though.
oneADseven said:Syrif said:In regards to the part of what is highlighted as Joppa/Chris saying above, ^ gear will be even more iconic and unique than what I suggested. That is terrific! :)
Indeed. Earning a full set of matching gear should be considered a rare accomplishment in and of itself. Appearance slots allow those accomplishments to carry more weight than what was observed in some of the earlier games. If EQOA offered appearance slots, the accomplishment of earning a full set of rubicite would have been more meaningful. This is a good quality-of-life improvement for players but more important than that, it's healthy for the game as a whole.
While I agree, I am on the fence about appearance slots. I have no idea how that would be done well without making equipped gear appear as something else.
Syrif said:While I agree, I am on the fence about appearance slots. I have no idea how that would be done well without making equipped gear appear as something else.
Allowing equipped gear to appear as something else is the entire point behind "appearance slots" in the first place. As a compromise, VR has suggested that players will be able to toggle the appearance slots on/off. It remains to be seen whether or not that toggle would apply to individual players or be universal for all. I will choose to keep the toggle turned on as I prefer to see the accomplishments of other players, particularly those that they want to visually share with the world.
You know it's funny. A lot of this ultimately comes down to art styles and how many different item appearances there are in the game, from a graphical perspective.
For example, if there are only three different textures for plate armor in the game at launch, even if they have slightly different shaders applied based on tier/construction, then you're still going to wind up with an awful lot of people looking the same. Because... there are only three different textures. This is regardless of appearance slots existing or not.
On the other hand, if there are 30 different plate armor textures, then there's just a bit more room for diversity in appearances.
So, I feel like arguing about whether the game should have appearance slots and how they should work is sort of like putting the cart before the horse. Don't get me wrong, I still think having them is probably better than the alternative in many cases. But what I care more about is that there's a wide variety of equipment textures that people can choose from, at all levels.
And of course, I also support cosmetic/social clothing, as well as non-combat clothing for various purposes. If someone wants to spend their entire virtual life fighting monsters in the muck, wearing the same tattered, smelly set of robes, that's fine. But you know for me, I plan on spending time doing many different things. And if some of that time is going to involve standing over a forge, or investigating ancient prophecies in a library, I think I might like to look the part a little bit, instead of wearing that ratty set of chainmail everywhere I go.
It's a world. We should have the ability to treat it as such.
Just saying.
Nephele said:You know it's funny. A lot of this ultimately comes down to art styles and how many different item appearances there are in the game, from a graphical perspective.
For example, if there are only three different textures for plate armor in the game at launch, even if they have slightly different shaders applied based on tier/construction, then you're still going to wind up with an awful lot of people looking the same. Because... there are only three different textures. This is regardless of appearance slots existing or not.
On the other hand, if there are 30 different plate armor textures, then there's just a bit more room for diversity in appearances.
So, I feel like arguing about whether the game should have appearance slots and how they should work is sort of like putting the cart before the horse. Don't get me wrong, I still think having them is probably better than the alternative in many cases. But what I care more about is that there's a wide variety of equipment textures that people can choose from, at all levels.
And of course, I also support cosmetic/social clothing, as well as non-combat clothing for various purposes. If someone wants to spend their entire virtual life fighting monsters in the muck, wearing the same tattered, smelly set of robes, that's fine. But you know for me, I plan on spending time doing many different things. And if some of that time is going to involve standing over a forge, or investigating ancient prophecies in a library, I think I might like to look the part a little bit, instead of wearing that ratty set of chainmail everywhere I go.
It's a world. We should have the ability to treat it as such.
Just saying.
i'm the type of pvper that would have the appeareance of a common npc and a chicken mount so when i'm standing over the warm dead body of another pvper, they realize they got fried by a pleb riding a ridiculous mount. a pinch of insult or a great sign of respect. all depends on how you view things.
imagine: soldiers decked out in combat gear looking like garbage men and a tank disguised as the truck.
never gonna give you up never gonna let you down~