Zorkon said:kreed99 said: I just want food and drink to be more than just a slot taken up and forgotten about. But i dont want to go full survival mode where you spend a lot of wasted time worrying about food. I hope they stick with the meaningful choices ideology and make them useful player-made consumables. It does make me hopeful to hear they want to make food and water better than it has been.Slots are irrelevant, that problem is as easy to solve as adding a Food and a Drink slot in the UI just like an Ammo slot or a Breastplate slot.
Why? I would rather food to impactful enough to want it be in my inventory than for it to be merely needed to play the game, people seem to be complaining about this but I remember when I was playing eq people hated when they ran out of these resources and had to basically stop playing the game to go to city or anywhere food/drink was sold so they could play the game again, that's simply unesscary, but as I said if you make it wanted to the point people will make it feel like a "need to have" is better to actually have to have it to play the game.
Zorkon said:kreed99 said: I just want food and drink to be more than just a slot taken up and forgotten about. But i dont want to go full survival mode where you spend a lot of wasted time worrying about food. I hope they stick with the meaningful choices ideology and make them useful player-made consumables. It does make me hopeful to hear they want to make food and water better than it has been.Slots are irrelevant, that problem is as easy to solve as adding a Food and a Drink slot in the UI just like an Ammo slot or a Breastplate slot.
Except if you plan on a long journey, you'd need 2 stacks? Or 4? Or maybe you can stack as much as you like in one slot? In which case people will always stack as much as they can and trivialise the whole thing even more. I think a dedicated UI slot would either be more painful or more trivial than the traditional way, depending on stack size.
The whole point of food/drink taking up slots was so there is a planning aspect to it, which basically came down to how many slots do I waste until I next see a vendor. I think you either have that, or you don't. I'm in the "don't" camp, but really, really don't if it is a watered-down version that becomes even more of a pointless, tedious, periodic vendor click.
With the food not being mandatory, but being desirable, you get the best of both worlds. You aren't forced to do it, but when you *do* choose food/drink it will take up a slot and it will be valuable enough to really need to think about how much you carry and how many bag slots to take up, etc. Same deal, but more choice and more meaning.
Vandraad said:I look at it this way: If food/drink will provide bonuses and if those bonuses provide tangible benefits to the player, food/drink is still then a requirement to have in your inventory. Regardless if you must actively consume it, regardless if you only use it when needed, it will be something you must carry. Thus, the argument VR presents that food/drink taking up invendory slots is something they want to do away with comes moot.
Or the opposite of moot ;^) They are giving you the choice. You can still take up slots and you have great choice over meaningful food/drink types and effects, but you can choose not to have any or at least not to have to stop adventuring immediately that you've run out.
Vandraad said:What did the passive consumpting of food/drink provide in EQ1 beyond the buffs they provided and the health/mana regeneration? It provided a viable marketplace for the cooking tradeskill. People really into tradeskills should be looking at this with a very critical eye because if food/drink are not seen as a necessary item to carry, the market for that tradeskill vanishes. We've seen the threads where tradeskillers want the products to be desired, to be useful, to not be always inferior to that which you can obtain out in the world. Food/drink falls into that.
And having food/drink be something that isn't just trivially bought from a vendor (like it almost always was in EQ) is exactly what you get with VR's plan. You *could* have vendor/dropped food/drink with perhaps very basic buffs, but crafted food/drink can be as meaningful, interesting, varying and, so, desirable/valuable as you like. The scope is enormous.
The only change between VR's approach and the traditional approach is food/drink will not be mandatory for basic mana/health regen. You will not be forced to stop adventuring if you run out. That's it. Everything else is the same, or at least has the same potential.
Also, this one aspect: Moving away from mandatory food/drink; does not suddenly turn Pantheon into a 'mainstream' game, whatever that is. Nor is it some kind of a taint that will doom Pantheon. I'm defending it, because I prefer the idea, but to be honest, if VR went with the traditional way, it'd be *shrug* ok. Meh. Neither way will make or break Pantheon. Just one way is a lot more interesting than the other.
EDIT: I see reading back more thoroughly that folks like 1AD7 have more than made these points already. Sorry for the extra waffle.
Syrif said:That “luxury” item you mention won’t work just like it doesn’t work in mainstream. How about let’s go with what we’ve learned over the past 20+ years instead of repeating what’s clearly wrong with mainstream.
There were luxury buff foods/drinks in classic EQ. They were rare, like potions, but they were there and were used. Some MMORPGs over the years expanded on that. Some don't have any. Some just have potions, but use them a lot. Some have other consumables.
Sure, modern MMORPGs have not 'scratched the itch' for many of us and it seems to have gotten worse over the years. Was luxury food/drink the reason for that? Was *everything* about *all* of them wrong and bad?
And even if that were true, does that mean everything about classic/traditional MMORPGs was great?
What I've learned over the past 20+ years is that some things have become worse and some things better and some things are just as good or the same and to dismiss things out-of-hand because they are old *or* new doesn't make sense. Would we be learning from the past 20 years by abandoning every change in it?
Tell us what you think about luxury food/drink 'doesn't work' in mainstream, and why, and let's discuss it. Just condemning everything post-EQ-classic is hard to discuss. Also, what is 'mainstream'? How long after EQ did that happen? Or do you mean after VG? Or some other game? How many users does something have to have to be mainstream or is it even number of users that matters, if so, why?
This should maybe be another thread, though.
disposalist said:Syrif said:That “luxury” item you mention won’t work just like it doesn’t work in mainstream. How about let’s go with what we’ve learned over the past 20+ years instead of repeating what’s clearly wrong with mainstream.
There were luxury buff foods/drinks in classic EQ. They were rare, like potions, but they were there and were used. Some MMORPGs over the years expanded on that. Some don't have any. Some just have potions, but use them a lot. Some have other consumables.
Sure, modern MMORPGs have not 'scratched the itch' for many of us and it seems to have gotten worse over the years. Was luxury food/drink the reason for that? Was *everything* about *all* of them wrong and bad?
And even if that were true, does that mean everything about classic/traditional MMORPGs was great?
What I've learned over the past 20+ years is that some things have become worse and some things better and some things are just as good or the same and to dismiss things out-of-hand because they are old *or* new doesn't make sense. Would we be learning from the past 20 years by abandoning every change in it?
Tell us what you think about luxury food/drink 'doesn't work' in mainstream, and why, and let's discuss it. Just condemning everything post-EQ-classic is hard to discuss. Also, what is 'mainstream'? How long after EQ did that happen? Or do you mean after VG? Or some other game? How many users does something have to have to be mainstream or is it even number of users that matters, if so, why?
This should maybe be another thread, though.
Oh please, I am not going to take my time to explain to you what Mainstream is. If you haven’t figured that out by now, then that discussion was over before it started. Lmao.. and you are telling me there were luxury food items in Classic (for how dare I mention “EQ”). But, but were there speed buffs in Classic and you know those big things called dragons in Classic too? And blue sparky affects too? Oh my! Newsflash: you know what Classic did have? Classic had food/water equipped as necessary for normal regen. But, but all those games now don’t have it. But, but food/water as only another luxury buff. Why not have riskvsreward? Meh, it’s not needed. Gimme my glowing sword NOW!! Why not have a death penalty with exp loss and corpse recovery? Because it’s too hawd. Why not have a group? Because what’s a groupy thingy. Why have an extensive faction system with penalties alongside achievements that require thought, work, and strategy? Wait; I am telling on you.
Thank you for the amusement, truly. Good day.
So, mandatory food/water is the same issue as Risk/reward, loot proliferation, death penalty, needing to group, faction and basically all challenge and difficulty?
I was trying to get at the idea that 'mainstream' or 'classic' means different things to different people and you can pick any one feature and people will disagree.
I guess I get where you are coming from now. Good day indeed.
stellarmind said:Watemper said:@stellarmind
What? lol
this community is anti mainstream according to syrif.
antimainstream means you're a hipster.
hipsters like organic stuff since gmo stuff is mainstream(cough cough wow).
hipsters also tend to support local businesses or ones they trust anyways.
come on up to stellar organic drug- i mean, potions, elixirs and draughts for your adventuring needs :D
unlike those dirty npc potions sellers using gmc (genetically manipulated coding) with base stats and endless supply, we here still gathering our reagents from the wild with actual PLAYERS! LIMITED edition supply offering the highest stat boosts for those 'clutch' moments where you can't just perform, and i'm not talking about the bedroom ;D
I have never seen hipsters support local businesses...and this is someone born and raised in California lol. I think you got them switched around dude :P. Besides they say that then they double fist an iphone.
Riahuf22 said:Zorkon said:kreed99 said: I just want food and drink to be more than just a slot taken up and forgotten about. But i dont want to go full survival mode where you spend a lot of wasted time worrying about food. I hope they stick with the meaningful choices ideology and make them useful player-made consumables. It does make me hopeful to hear they want to make food and water better than it has been.Slots are irrelevant, that problem is as easy to solve as adding a Food and a Drink slot in the UI just like an Ammo slot or a Breastplate slot.
Why? I would rather food to impactful enough to want it be in my inventory than for it to be merely needed to play the game, people seem to be complaining about this but I remember when I was playing eq people hated when they ran out of these resources and had to basically stop playing the game to go to city or anywhere food/drink was sold so they could play the game again, that's simply unesscary, but as I said if you make it wanted to the point people will make it feel like a "need to have" is better to actually have to have it to play the game.
You did. It made you regen mana and hp. If you had no water and no enchanter for clarity buff then you didn't regen mana and became useless. If you were trying to solo lower end mobs and had no food or water then you are pretty much screwed. You needed food and water to function...that is why everyone had it in their inventory lol.
Zorkon said:Slots are irrelevant, that problem is as easy to solve as adding a Food and a Drink slot in the UI just like an Ammo slot or a Breastplate slot.
My comment here on slots I wasn't intending to be advocating in favor or against food/drink slots. It was more intending just to point out VR can handle the "taking up the slots" problem in several ways to where they get the effect they want.
They could have dedicated slots.
They could give us 8 inventory instead of 6.
Or 10 instead of 8.
They can allow 10 food per slot or 100.
"Slots" are simply a UI item and will be whatever VR. decides will give the effect they want. It could be a dedicated slot, with 6 inventory slots and the "taking up a slot" people wouldn't have a problem with it, but those same people would have the same complaint if we had 20 inventory slots and 2 were taken up with food/drink.
Nobody complains about a breastplate or gloves taking up a slot.
Just running with a concept that occured to me.
1) Players have a UI "food slot" and they can either place a stack of food from their inventory into that slot or leave it empty.
2) Players can actively cook, but this requires collected ingredients from their inventory to be consumed in the process.
2) Leaving the food slot empty means the character will forage and cook food themselves in an automated fashion. A recipe can be selected from a list of those known but only discovered local ingredients can be used and missing ingredients will decrease the quality.
3) A list of regional recipes can be acquired at relatively low cost from local vendors. More exotic recipes can be found or learned.
4) Each region (even each zone) has a list of local edible ingredients that players will need to discover to gain access to (loot from enemies, forage, harvest, etc.).
5) General cooking skill is developed slowly over time through automated cooking or faster through active cooking.
6) Ingredient-specific skill increases slowly by actively cooking with them or faster through studying the ingredients (consumes the ingredient in the process).
7) Ingredients decay in quality quickly with time while cooked food does not decay. This encourages the trade of food but not the trade of ingredients.
The goals of this system...
1) Puts a cap on time investment to achieve mastery (as is the case with traditional crafting skills). You need to put in a lot of work, but you can eventually attain self-sufficiency and you can even actively harvest ingredients and sell high quality food for profit once mastery is achieved.
2) Players can choose to just buy food from other players or use vendor food. A hefty supply of food will be created by players learning to cook which should keep costs relatively low.
3) Regional flare. Any time you travel you need to stock up on food from home, buy it there until you've trained up on the local ingredients, or just accept the hit from poorly made food.
This would be a pretty big stretch given that they've probably got a crafting system in the works already, but I wanted to think it through. It would kind of be a compromise given that food is nearly essential (hit to stats with low quality stuff) but you can also get around the tediousness of constantly having to make food by teaching yourself to gather/cook it. I'm not entirely sold on my concept as stated, but I just liked the themes of feeling beholden to your environment/preparedness for nourishment, being restricted by the local ingredients, sourcing foreign foods for specific and challenging encounters, but having work-arounds so its truly optional.
Edit: Simplified version of the concept - Cooking skill works exactly as it would otherwise (standard crafting skill with collecting and crafting), but if you don't bring your own food then your character will just eat what is around. What is around varies from zone to zone and has positive and negative effects. You don't NEED to bring food, but you have to accept the effects that comes with that zone's foragable food. Warriors might not do well in a zone without wild game while druids might not do well in a zone with limited vegetation - unless they bring their own supply.
Watemper said:I have never seen hipsters support local businesses...and this is someone born and raised in California lol. I think you got them switched around dude :P. Besides they say that then they double fist an iphone.
no wonder southern hipsters don't like west coast hipsters O.o
Hegenox said:
But that's just one of many ways player can plan and prepare for adventuring - stocking on ho/mp pots, buying food that gives buffs, customizing your bag space to have with you the things you need vs free space needed for loot. I don't see that stocking on food/water bring anything else/new to the table.
What in the heck are you talking about Hegenox? Equipping food/water for normal regen rates absolutely DOES bring something NEW to the table, as it is widely ABSENT from mmorpg's. It's time to bring that food/water mechanism into a new mmorpg right here in Pantheon.
Kalok said:oneADseven said:I'm quite happy about the direction they are going with food/drink. Instead of players needing to maintain a stock of each so that their characters can function normally (regenerate HP/Mana) they will instead be used as more of a traditional consumable that provides durational buffs.
So, what you're saying is that you don't like having to plan to go adventuring. You just like to set off and not have to maintain even the basics of your toon. Just go and get 'phat lewtz'. To me, that takes away from the "I belong in the world" aspect of the game. You should "suffer" penalties for not providing basic upkeep for your toon. Food and drink is basic upkeep. But then, you probably don't want encumberance either.
Yep, I agree with you Kalok. It is disappointing to see a handful of people now on these forums who repeatedly advocate for that type of gameplay. It's ironic because it is contrary to the vision of what Pantheon started out to be. I thought Pantheon was supposed to be something different from the mainstream mmorpg's. This is another area where I believe oneADseven is dead wrong. Anyway, I sure hope VR moves away from all that and realizes that the VAST majority of people interested in Pantheon (who are fed up with mainstream) do not post on forums.
i would say that if they want to make food buffs valid, they need to remove class buffs with long durations.
this concept is going to be prolific, so i'll try my best to explain.
let's say there's a food buff that gives 10% bonus hp(very difficult to craft) and a cleric that has a buff that does the same thing, both lasting the same time.
the loser here is the crafter because the cleric spell is virtually free compared to the time investment of the crafter.
as crazy as it sounds to some old school mmo players, this system works well in the bdo space.
there is more agency for crafters since long term buffs(ranging from 30mins to hours) are only obtain through player generated items.
i'll clarify that short class buffs that are powerful(lasting at most 1min) are still fine.
i'm particularly not fond of tying the hunger and thirst mechanic(survival) into the game, however, if the removal of class long term buffs is too great a sacrifice, then this is something to consider to give food and water agency outside of hp and mp regen.
Xxar said:Item : Warm Coffee
Type : Player Crafted Food / Drink
Consume : + 5 cold enviroment duration 30 mins.
Brrrr!
Item: Coffee
Type: NPC Food/Drink
Consume: +5 cold enviroment duration 15 mins.
gas station cheap coffee that could give even the stoutest caffiends heartburn.
Syrif said:Xxar said:Item : Warm Coffee
Type : Player Crafted Food / Drink
Consume : + 5 cold enviroment duration 30 mins.
Brrrr!
*Wonders what chocolate milk will do* :)
Item: Organic Wholesome Hand Yanked chocolate Milk
Type: Player Crafted Drink
Consume: increase pressure acclimation by 10 for 30 mins 1hp5(forgot to add the chocolate portion, known to be good for probiotics, antioxidants and great for health)
momma always said strong bones come from a strong cow eating strong food.
kingsreach farmer
Xxar said:Item : Warm Coffee
Type : Player Crafted Food / Drink
Consume : + 5 cold enviroment duration 30 mins.
Brrrr!
nonononono, like this:
Item : Warm Coffee
Type : Player Crafted Food / Drink
consume: - nothing
Item: warm coffee +,& Item: doughnut (donut to be cute)
Increase cold resist by +2, 10min, increase stamina regen by +1, 10min
coffee and donuts are not a meal per se, but a short term mid-snack or a temporary. Now, a squirel or seagull can come and steal your donut if you dont have a tailored bag for instance (A tailored bag would have buttons or straps that can be fastened). Or your coffee can spill if your climbing and your climbing skill is not over 5 or something. thats the risk.
Or you buy standard water pods and biscuts that are consumed quickly, and offer nothing and you'd be better off fishing for something or making goop from local bugs and jerky from local vermin that are suprisingly good in the local area for small tiny buffs- dont last long though.
As you get better and start carrying around ales or roasted meats, it will attract predators to you, as well as cause them to be stolen from you in dungeons by mentally higher NPC's- like the sneaky goblins that notice your drinking nice dwarven double bock ale, or the guards in blackrose keep that smell the unmistakeable scent of thronefast sheppherds pie.
Manouk said:nonononono, like this:
Item : Warm Coffee
Type : Player Crafted Food / Drink
consume: - nothing
Item: warm coffee +,& Item: doughnut (donut to be cute)
Increase cold resist by +2, 10min, increase stamina regen by +1, 10min
plus stam? that's going to be warm espresso i would say dear sir.
ohh combining the espresso and milk:
item: warm chocolate nythirian red cafe au lait
type: luxury player craft drink
consume: 10+ to pressure and cold acclimation. 5mp5, 5hp5, 5sp5 for 30 mins(maybe an hour this is a luxury item)
the dark myr fancy drinking liquids as a breathe of air for us humans. this breathe reminds them of their beloved god of war.
-reignfall dark myr enthusiast
My favorite games are ones that require resource management. Serious management.
I liked EQ having mandatory food intake to regen.
Always having to have some "casual" food, as well as goodies for special situations was good for me.
And the obligatory moments when I ran out of bread and auto-consumed something expensive on accident.
I played Guild Wars 2 for a whie, and that food systems sucks. People are expected to be running their min/max food at all times. Boring.