Vandraad said:Well, I guess I'll wait to see just how they implement both the buffs from the food and the process by which we consume it. Becuase if these buffs last just a few minutes and I need to be constantly shoving food down my neck to keep those buffs going I'm gonna be pissed. If, however, I can carry a stack of the food/drink that has the buffs I want and set them to auto-consume I w ill definitely do that even if it means I'm consuming them during times where they are not needed. I do not want to see the 'set it and forget it' approach replaced by stupid amounts of manual consumption just for short term (i.e. few minutes duration) buffs.
I'm going to wait and see what they come up with as well. As opposed to this thread were we are all hashing over waysome it has always been and which of those we hope they do. I've become accustomed to the VR Dev-team pulling rabbits out of hats and coming up with something totally new. They aren't amateurs just looking to mirror EQ, or WOW's process.
I'm curious Vandraad about you concern about having to have your "constantly shove food down your mouth" what if hypothetically it's an instant +20STR buff that last for 20 sec and intended to be used in connection with one or more of your spells or abilitys? Like "popping a cooldown" sounds to me like more engageing combat. So what's the problem, that the button says DRINK instead of some other more aggressive nome? Are you going to be equally upset if it has the same effect but a better name?
I'm just throwing out a hypothetical, why get concerned when we know VR is doing things differently, until we hear exactly what they are doing and get to try it.
philo said: I agree with the OP. It is a slippery slope. It is more concerning than just food/drink. There needs to be things that are boring and unfun and frustrating so that the fun things feel fun. Hopefully I'm reading to much into this. It makes me question if the exp loss/lvl loss/death penalty/ corpse run/grinds/ time sinks etc. will be bad enough to make the good things stand out? I'm probably reading into it to much...i hope.
That is my concern. Food was, nor has it ever been something I thought needed to be more fun. Why even tinker with it. But, it just goes to show they may be trying to hard to listen to some of their input, and input for input's sake isn't always good. AND again, there needs to be some aggrivating, tedious and boring parts of the game, so when you're having fun you know it.
Yes you always needed food/drink but it was never particularly meaningful even in EQ. You could grab a stack of food/water at a merchant and be set for 10+ hours of play, not to mention if you were grouping there was a good chance someone in the group could summon some if a player ran out or someone in the zone could. They were mostly just inventory space wasters.
As for food being moved to yet another source of consumable buffs...I worry about consumable bloat. I sincerely hope there are at least limits (1 potion, 1 food buff or something) so that late game doesn't turn everyone into gold farmers by necessity like most MMOs seem to; gotta farm all week to get fresh stacks of consumables for top end content, flood the game with coin.
Zorkon said:Vandraad said:Well, I guess I'll wait to see just how they implement both the buffs from the food and the process by which we consume it. Becuase if these buffs last just a few minutes and I need to be constantly shoving food down my neck to keep those buffs going I'm gonna be pissed. If, however, I can carry a stack of the food/drink that has the buffs I want and set them to auto-consume I w ill definitely do that even if it means I'm consuming them during times where they are not needed. I do not want to see the 'set it and forget it' approach replaced by stupid amounts of manual consumption just for short term (i.e. few minutes duration) buffs.
I'm going to wait and see what they come up with as well. As opposed to this thread were we are all hashing over waysome it has always been and which of those we hope they do. I've become accustomed to the VR Dev-team pulling rabbits out of hats and coming up with something totally new. They aren't amateurs just looking to mirror EQ, or WOW's process.
I'm curious Vandraad about you concern about having to have your "constantly shove food down your mouth" what if hypothetically it's an instant +20STR buff that last for 20 sec and intended to be used in connection with one or more of your spells or abilitys? Like "popping a cooldown" sounds to me like more engageing combat. So what's the problem, that the button says DRINK instead of some other more aggressive nome? Are you going to be equally upset if it has the same effect but a better name?
I'm just throwing out a hypothetical, why get concerned when we know VR is doing things differently, until we hear exactly what they are doing and get to try it.
This OP wasn't about the food/drink or the way it is consumed. It's about "we looked at how food and drink was implemented in the game and it just wasn't fun" statement by Joppa. Why does the Food and Drink mechanic of a game need to be "fun". Again, there should be some dull moments in a game so the exciting moments shine bright.
Misty Thicket Picnic
Seems pretty good. :)
Similarly, Qeynos Afternoon Tea..
oneADseven said:I don't really disagree with what you're saying Stellar. The point is that it wouldn't need to be auto-consumed ... if the resource actually has value then players will usually try to use it efficiently. If someone wants to be lazy and set it to auto-consume and waste their resources, I don't really care. (I would love this if I was a provisioner!) I wouldn't do that personally because I have a tendency to be resourceful and focus on efficiency. I'm not going to waste expensive consumables in order to avoid managing them. Thoughtful management is the main thing I'm looking forward to with this system.
i'm just playing with the idea XD you're usually a pretty good person to bounce off of. if the design of the game is to put more emphasis on impactful choices, auto consume is counter intuitive. i guess to throw in a potency with the duration of consumbles,
lets just say alchemy stuff is about 20% of a stat value
food buffs are 10% of a stat value
(average time to make end game consumbles is half the duration, so a feast food buff lasting 2 hrs would take about 1 hr to make.)
so the time investment is 1:2 giving a 10% edge stat increase for food
people can divvy up the workload too.
so gathering can be split between two people turning a 30 min investment into 15 mins. the processing still takes about 30 mins to do, however, this can also be split to 15 mins.
in essence 1 food feast that normally would take 1 person an hour to make, can be chopped down the time to 30 mins total between 2 people.
this still stays in the spirit of the devs i would say. uhh community driven and meaningful choices*
I played a survival game and in there you could die without eating food or drink. (Though learning to eat might be a good thing in the introduction.)
It might sound really scary but it isn't. You learn quick enough to carry supplies and if this game is meant to be hard it actually would mean something to have food with you.
The second reason to eat would be that good food it would give you temporary buffs, like warming up or cooling down or make you run faster or making you stronger, even hold your breath longer. With the special climate hot and cold zones food could really help in those area's if you do not have the gear to fit with these area's.
For example: Eating something keeps you alive for an hour, depending on the quality of food and it buffed you for half an hour agains cold, also depening on the quality of food.
You do need a warning when you get thirsty or hungry though. (no autconsume, if you have food in the game, autoconsume makes it too easy)
Ahh another debate on an rpg element of the game getting turned into something stupid like WoW food lol. Although with this debate...WoW food is more of a necessity than what some people are trying to come up with lol. But yeah..my character is immortal and won't dehydrate or starve to death...lets go with what every other mmo is doing.
Qulash said:I played a survival game and in there you could die without eating food or drink. (Though learning to eat might be a good thing in the introduction.)
It might sound really scary but it isn't. You learn quick enough to carry supplies and if this game is meant to be hard it actually would mean something to have food with you.The second reason to eat would be that good food it would give you temporary buffs, like warming up or cooling down or make you run faster or making you stronger, even hold your breath longer. With the special climate hot and cold zones food could really help in those area's if you do not have the gear to fit with these area's.
For example: Eating something keeps you alive for an hour, depending on the quality of food and it buffed you for half an hour agains cold, also depening on the quality of food.You do need a warning when you get thirsty or hungry though
Another aspect might be that food regenerates your health or mana a little between fights. Nothing close to a heal, but enough to reduce a downtime when you are hurt and without a healer.
i do belib that vr wants some survival aspects without making certain elements tedious. i know i spent quite a bit of time tweaking skyrim frostfall to get the feeling right without making it a chore to maintain hunger, thirst and climate.
because mmo are more along the lines of questing, dungeon diving and raiding communally, hunger and thirst leading to death is too much. i think dealing with the climate is fine to add into a mmo and u can die to the climate if ill prepared.
in a nutshell the dying to the climate should be a thing, but dying by hunger and thirst should not in an mmorpg.
food and water should remain a supplemental part of gameplay.
Watemper said:Ahh another debate on an rpg element of the game getting turned into something stupid like WoW food lol. Although with this debate...WoW food is more of a necessity than what some people are trying to come up with lol. But yeah..my character is immortal and won't dehydrate or starve to death...lets go with what every other mmo is doing.
If you/they want Pantheon to be realistic survival game - then, by all means, do it - I'll play it and enjoy it - just do it all the way and make us remember about consuming food and not play with auto-consume which defeats the whole purpose. Besides by going along with your idea, that character must eat and drink or he'll starve and dehydrate, then he should as well do something with this consumed food - so stop to piss and take a dump - otherwise, he will piss himself and crap his pants during boss fight and will slip and be knocked down constantly, not to mention he will take a massive hit to his charisma, which may never be restored fully ...
Edit: In my mind, some details whether it's in a game or in a book can and many times should be omitted - because they can simply be taken for granted. Besides you can just think that your character just makes a food/toilet breaks in the same exact moment as you do in your life so you just can't see it.
Ironically, I have been working on a post about consumables (including food and drink) for the last couple of days and just posted it in the Crafting section. Rather than drop it into this thread and just confuse everyone, here's a link to it instead.
I dig the idea of what VR is doing with prioritizing buff food over a passive inventory mechanic. The survival mechanic is fine too - but I typically prefer systems that introduce layers of choice or promote other forms of gameplay or socialization.
Not that I loved everything about my playtime with WoW, but I must say fishing and making "Fancy Feasts" during WotLK was an enjoyable diversion with a decent gameplay loop. Could sit back with some brews, go fishing and flying around some pretty/dangerous locales. Then, turn the fruits (fish) of that labor into a sweet sharable platter with significant buffs for raids or other group gatherings. Bonus - you had a rare chance while fishing to get the cutest and most useless mount in the game. Since one of the devs (forget who/what stream) mentioned a similar, positive experience of sharing food with group members, I'm hoping we see some cool social mechanics like this layered into the food design decisions. Boost the player economy with desirable, player-harvested meats, veggies, or spices, give people multiple viable farming methods they may enjoy, provide an opportunity for tweakable coin sinks with inelastic vendor ingredients if the economy needs adjustment, get people to maybe physically gather (or dance) around placable feasts for worthwhile bonuses to their play session - sounds good to me.
The survival mechanic historically has been easily circumvented by virtue of an extra slot of inventory or two. Even if you ran out, many classes in at least a few games could summon/forage extra, meaning only portions of the player populations would run into any kind of real issue, and only while soloing far from a food vendor or cooking station. That's more of a "hey, take a break, go pee, swing by town to restock" mechanic than a social mechanic - though I could see how the vendor visit might have you run past some folks or maybe dunk you into town chat. Same might happen if you run out of buff food too, I suppose - with the inventory management and town run. Buff food would lean into provisioning and harvesting activities much better, while still providing roughly all of the same demands/benefits as survival food.
I'm also not averse to hybrid systems, where there's both a survival mechanic and buff food. Regardless, I'm not put out by VR's current removal of the survival mechanic.
stellarmind said:
i do belib that vr wants some survival aspects without making certain elements tedious. i know i spent quite a bit of time tweaking skyrim frostfall to get the feeling right without making it a chore to maintain hunger, thirst and climate.
because mmo are more along the lines of questing, dungeon diving and raiding communally, hunger and thirst leading to death is too much. i think dealing with the climate is fine to add into a mmo and u can die to the climate if ill prepared.
in a nutshell the dying to the climate should be a thing, but dying by hunger and thirst should not in an mmorpg.
food and water should remain a supplemental part of gameplay.
If a climate can kill you because you are ill prepared, because you forgot the sunscreen, why wouldn't bringing enough food and drink be with the preparation. I have an easy example: a hot climate usually does not kill humans if you compare them with other animals. Humans are very resiliant agains heat because of the naked skin and sweating. That is, as long you have enough water. As I said, it sounds scary, but you get used to it very quick and so you will always travel prepared with good food and plenty of drinks.
Dying of hunger or thirst doesn't have to go quick, you might survive in a severly weakened state by hunger or thirst before death claims you. It would be a state you want to avoid in such a harsh world.
(If you are scared of dying when afk. The hunger bar/clock/whatever could stop automatically when someone is afk/not touching any keys/lost connection, I am not sure somthing like that can be made for being afk in zones with dangerous climates)
I haven't read all the posts ( I will I promise) I got through about 3/4's of the first page and like the idea of one food and one drink being sort of a buff- a hidden buff slot in inventory.
A buff slot in inventory that, like the proper application of gourmandise of pairing the right wine with the right dish, or the right ale with the right bar food, even fish 'n chips in newspaper (the ink adds something) that taken together create the buff, and seperate fo not create the buff. I think will be fun as some of the posters have mentioned.
But what if, food and drink were the one thing that NPC's could take or steal from you? in battle or from being pickpocketed? causing the buff to be lost unless the other half can be retrieved or remade.
Maybe the runner at low health has pilfered 4 of the group members foods, maybe the goblins have taken all our drinks. If found and killed they would still have the food and or drinks but they would be percentages less than what they were as if they took some bites or some sips.
What if, it also became an inadvertent reverse perception mechanic? Normally, making a long trip accross the desert you pack jerky and a canteen but coming from town you have aromatic ginger crystalled dates and honey mead that the jackals can smell... your warm chowder and blackened walrus steak sandwich inadvertently becomes chum to the sharks while making that ocean crossing.
Kittik said:Zorkon said:Vandraad said:Well, I guess I'll wait to see just how they implement both the buffs from the food and the process by which we consume it. Becuase if these buffs last just a few minutes and I need to be constantly shoving food down my neck to keep those buffs going I'm gonna be pissed. If, however, I can carry a stack of the food/drink that has the buffs I want and set them to auto-consume I w ill definitely do that even if it means I'm consuming them during times where they are not needed. I do not want to see the 'set it and forget it' approach replaced by stupid amounts of manual consumption just for short term (i.e. few minutes duration) buffs.
I'm going to wait and see what they come up with as well. As opposed to this thread were we are all hashing over waysome it has always been and which of those we hope they do. I've become accustomed to the VR Dev-team pulling rabbits out of hats and coming up with something totally new. They aren't amateurs just looking to mirror EQ, or WOW's process.
I'm curious Vandraad about you concern about having to have your "constantly shove food down your mouth" what if hypothetically it's an instant +20STR buff that last for 20 sec and intended to be used in connection with one or more of your spells or abilitys? Like "popping a cooldown" sounds to me like more engageing combat. So what's the problem, that the button says DRINK instead of some other more aggressive nome? Are you going to be equally upset if it has the same effect but a better name?
I'm just throwing out a hypothetical, why get concerned when we know VR is doing things differently, until we hear exactly what they are doing and get to try it.
This OP wasn't about the food/drink or the way it is consumed. It's about "we looked at how food and drink was implemented in the game and it just wasn't fun" statement by Joppa. Why does the Food and Drink mechanic of a game need to be "fun". Again, there should be some dull moments in a game so the exciting moments shine bright.
Your point?
Qulash said:If a climate can kill you because you are ill prepared, because you forgot the sunscreen, why wouldn't bringing enough food and drink be with the preparation. I have an easy example: a hot climate usually does not kill humans if you compare them with other animals. Humans are very resiliant agains heat because of the naked skin and sweating. That is, as long you have enough water. As I said, it sounds scary, but you get used to it very quick and so you will always travel prepared with good food and plenty of drinks.
Dying of hunger or thirst doesn't have to go quick, you might survive in a severly weakened state by hunger or thirst before death claims you. It would be a state you want to avoid in such a harsh world.(If you are scared of dying when afk. The hunger bar/clock/whatever could stop automatically when someone is afk/not touching any keys/lost connection, I am not sure somthing like that can be made for being afk in zones with dangerous climates)
i'm thinking about core game mechanics and time that the average player has. conan exiles, rust or the forest hunger and thirst management is a huge portion of the game. almost 1/4 of the play time is spent managing, another 1/4 for shelter, 1/4 for exploration and 1/4 spent in combat(rough estimates based on personal experience) this model is fine because the emphasis is survival.
in mmos assuming we are max level. i'm thinking we will be spending quite a bit of time building acclimation gear, explore areas or raiding/dungeoning/questing which accounts maybe for 1/2 of time. we also know traveling is a big thing in mmos and forming a group takes time(there will be a lfg tool). i'd say this almost accounts for 1/4 a play session (wow doesn't count here cuz they have instant teleportation to places). crafting, from what i gather, could be 1/4 to 1/2 of a session.
anyone that has ran a guild knows how time consuming it is to manage. i'm thinking about the experience as a whole. pantheon is an mmo first with survival elements(i hope) not a survival game with mmos elements.
Make the clicky a requirement for base regen as well as a buff, non dispellable. Problem solved thread ended? Our energies are stronger in helping create the product, not scrutinizing the abilities of content creators. Going through these forums a large amount of energy is spent against ourselves. We should stop that =p.
Alyonyah said:Make the clicky a requirement for base regen as well as a buff, non dispellable. Problem solved thread ended? Our energies are stronger in helping create the product, not scrutinizing the abilities of content creators. Going through these forums a large amount of energy is spent against ourselves. We should stop that =p.
trial by fire. steel doesn't get strong unless you heat it, beat it, fold it and continue the process. enter daft punk harder, faster, stronger.
Alyonyah said:Truth is what heats, beats and folds...... And the truth is that the energy we put in is the energy we get out. Thats the fire!
fire results in a beautiful explosion(i swear everytime i think of explosions i hear lakme flower duet) if it is not vented :o
it's not a waste as long as the devs get something out of it. i think most posts are pretty constructive with a bit of sarcasm to lighten the mood from time to time :D
Hegenox said:Watemper said:Ahh another debate on an rpg element of the game getting turned into something stupid like WoW food lol. Although with this debate...WoW food is more of a necessity than what some people are trying to come up with lol. But yeah..my character is immortal and won't dehydrate or starve to death...lets go with what every other mmo is doing.
If you/they want Pantheon to be realistic survival game - then, by all means, do it - I'll play it and enjoy it - just do it all the way and make us remember about consuming food and not play with auto-consume which defeats the whole purpose. Besides by going along with your idea, that character must eat and drink or he'll starve and dehydrate, then he should as well do something with this consumed food - so stop to piss and take a dump - otherwise, he will piss himself and crap his pants during boss fight and will slip and be knocked down constantly, not to mention he will take a massive hit to his charisma, which may never be restored fully ...
Edit: In my mind, some details whether it's in a game or in a book can and many times should be omitted - because they can simply be taken for granted. Besides you can just think that your character just makes a food/toilet breaks in the same exact moment as you do in your life so you just can't see it.
I don't mind. :) If we wanna go all the way. Hell if you like extremes how about if you die in the game you have to start over right...I mean real life and all. If you wanna go to the extreme that is...or you can take what I said a little more serious :).