Oh wait, now it's back in. IDK. Listening to the latest Dev Round table and Joppa said that food and drink as they have been a staple of MMO's since their inception are out. But then said they are in "differently". It was all slightly confusing to me. He said "they" looked at it and as a game mechanic it wasn't fun. So, they are doing it a different way.
I'm not sure how much differently you can do food and drink. Did he mean that as a passive consumable they are boring and that's what is out? How interactive can you be with the food and drink mechanic.
However, that’s not my point. My point is who cares if it's boring. Let it be boring, so the fun things are more fun. If you're trying to make Food and Drink consumables fun, what aspects of the game is going to remain tedious and boring so when we get to the parts of the game that are supposed to be fun, they feel like it.
If everything is fun and entertaining, nothing is. There has to be some yin to the yang. There must be some negative so you can see the positive.
"Oh, that’s neat and fun." "Oh, that’s neat and fun." "Oh, that’s...well that’s just the game." Eventually, everything being new and exciting leads to nothing being new and exciting.
I don't care what they do with Food and Drink, but "looking at it and thinking it needs to change" might not be where the efforts of development should lie. A passive consumable where at higher levels of the crafted food/drink add different bonuses is as exciting as food and drink need to be. Same thing goes with other game play mechanics. Are you looking at every single thing and trying to make it fun? Making everything fun for the sake of making it fun, isn't going to make the game fun. The sum of the parts will make the game fun, even if that means some of those parts need to be boring.
I find many things in life fun. Take sports for example. I don't find the monotony of practice and getting good at them fun all the time, but in the end that tedious work leads to me enjoying the fun times (game) more.
You shouldn't look at a single one thing with a magnifing glass to see if it's fun or not. You should look at it within the puzzle and find out if: it's boring and is adding bordom to everything, or it seems boring but oddly, it adds fun to everything.
I think food and drink need to be in just as they have always been in. So what if they're not "fun". They're a part of adventuring, and the mechanic is what it is for a reason. This is a large disappointment that they are changing basic underlying mechanics that add to the strategy of the game. You need to prepare for adventuring, not just wander off some place. Food and drink is an integral part of that preparation.
Edited to add: I could go off on a long story of how it made adventuring, and preparing for adventuring more fun, but at the moment I am getting ready to head out to work and don't have the time. I can certainly do it later.
I agree with VR that the food in EQ was pointless - and don't get me wrong, I quite enjoy many games that have that survivalish aspect to them, but it only makes sense if we have to keep in mind ourselves to feed our characters (perhaps something like in Kingdoms Come:Deliverance). From what I've understood from the Round Table, devs plan to go with the proven in many games food/drinks mechanic of food just giving long term buffs, though perhaps they have something entirely different in mind and Joppa was just trying to be mysterious again ...
I'm quite happy about the direction they are going with food/drink. Instead of players needing to maintain a stock of each so that their characters can function normally (regenerate HP/Mana) they will instead be used as more of a traditional consumable that provides durational buffs. This creates a dynamic where consuming food/drink is more tactical and weighty. They won't need to put stale bread and water on every other merchant in the world because they aren't required for basic functionality. They become more of a luxury item that provokes thought prior to consuming them. Instead of having food/drink being this mega-accessible thing on merchants all over the world, I imagine most/all of it will come from crafting. When I think of how this makes the game more fun, the benefits are numerous. Dying with an expensive food/drink buff adds another layer to the death penalty. If food and drink are mostly player-crafted, that will also help realize a player-driven economy. Food/Drink will still be used as an integral part of preparation ... they are just changing the dynamic from "stock up on stuff from an NPC merchant that gets auto-consumed for the next XX hours" to "there are a wide range of situational buffs that can be leveraged, all coming from different recipes, that require different ingredients (harvested or dropped from an NPC) -- use them tactically because they probably won't be cheap." Two thumbs way up from me.
I think there can be a happy medium where you have something like... no food/no drink = mana regeneration with meditate akin to EQ's. If you have plain, nothing special "food and drink" maybe it gives you a +.5 to mana/health/stamina regeneration while medding and out of combat at low levels a +1 in mid levels and a +1.5 at high levels. With basic vendor-buyable low/med/high foods. Player made foods could be far superior to this giving buffs to stats or even more regen. (numbers just to illustrate the idea, not actual proposed values)
This way, you're not going to die if you don't bring food with you and you're not going to be prevented from regenning, but even the small bonus out of combat will be enough to make it virtually mandatory for everyone. And player made food/drink will be far superior to the vendor bought easily without being too overpowered potentially. I don't think I would want food in the style of WoW though.
oneADseven said:I'm quite happy about the direction they are going with food/drink. Instead of players needing to maintain a stock of each so that their characters can function normally (regenerate HP/Mana) they will instead be used as more of a traditional consumable that provides durational buffs. This creates a dynamic where consuming food/drink is more tactical and weighty. They won't need to put stale bread and water on every other merchant in the world because they aren't required for basic functionality. They become more of a luxury item that provokes thought prior to consuming them. Instead of having food/drink being this mega-accessible thing on merchants all over the world, I imagine most/all of it will come from crafting. When I think of how this makes the game more fun, the benefits are numerous. Dying with an expensive food/drink buff adds another layer to the death penalty. If food and drink are mostly player-crafted, that will also help realize a player-driven economy. Food/Drink will still be used as an integral part of preparation ... they are just changing the dynamic from "stock up on stuff from an NPC merchant that gets auto-consumed for the next XX hours" to "there are a wide range of situational buffs that can be leveraged, all coming from different recipes, that require different ingredients (harvested or dropped from an NPC) -- use them tactically because they probably won't be cheap." Two thumbs way up from me.
So, what you're saying is that you don't like having to plan to go adventuring. You just like to set off and not have to maintain even the basics of your toon. Just go and get 'phat lewtz'. To me, that takes away from the "I belong in the world" aspect of the game. You should "suffer" penalties for not providing basic upkeep for your toon. Food and drink is basic upkeep. But then, you probably don't want encumberance either.
Kalok said:So, what you're saying is that you don't like having to plan to go adventuring. You just like to set off and not have to maintain even the basics of your toon. Just go and get 'phat lewtz'. To me, that takes away from the "I belong in the world" aspect of the game. You should "suffer" penalties for not providing basic upkeep for your toon. Food and drink is basic upkeep. But then, you probably don't want encumberance either.
No, I think what he is saying, is that food and drink will be more than a space taking item, it will take thought to be sure you get the proper benefit for the type of adventuring you may be doing that day. Sure you could choose not to use any food or drink, but then you are stifling your character of the advantages that the food/drink could provide.
Go to the desert take water and snackmix, go to the frozen tundra take whiskey and soup (dont forget your flint for the fire ;) ).
Kalok said:So, what you're saying is that you don't like having to plan to go adventuring. You just like to set off and not have to maintain even the basics of your toon. Just go and get 'phat lewtz'. To me, that takes away from the "I belong in the world" aspect of the game. You should "suffer" penalties for not providing basic upkeep for your toon. Food and drink is basic upkeep. But then, you probably don't want encumberance either.
But that's just one of many ways player can plan and prepare for adventuring - stocking on ho/mp pots, buying food that gives buffs, customizing your bag space to have with you the things you need vs free space needed for loot. I don't see that stocking on food/water bring anything else/new to the table.
So VR takes out food/drink as a generic necessity for continued health/mana regen (and later on buffs) only to replace it with food/drink that just gives buffs. Now answer this truthfully: If some food/drink combination provides a buff (or buffs) that are beneficial to your class would you not always have that food/drink on you just for that buff? Why would you ever not want the buff(s) available?
See, VR didn't do us any favors here. Food/Drink will still be necessary for those that want the buffs. Food/Drink wills till occupy some inventory slots.
I believe food will be less of a “stat” buff and more of an effect source. So rather than just adding to strength it might increase your carrying capacity or your stamina regen but not both. Which consumable is most beneficial to you will depend on your class and the content you are doing. Based on how long you will be doing that content will dictate how many servings your will need to bring with you. If the food lasts 2 hours and persists through death you may not need a second serving at all for the default play session but 10 minutes that drops on death you will need a stack.
Vandraad said:So VR takes out food/drink as a generic necessity for continued health/mana regen (and later on buffs) only to replace it with food/drink that just gives buffs. Now answer this truthfully: If some food/drink combination provides a buff (or buffs) that are beneficial to your class would you not always have that food/drink on you just for that buff? Why would you ever not want the buff(s) available?
See, VR didn't do us any favors here. Food/Drink will still be necessary for those that want the buffs. Food/Drink wills till occupy some inventory slots.
They did me a favor by making food/drink consumption something that requires thoughtful application. If food/drink are more of a luxury item than a necessity then sure, many players would indeed want to maintain those buffs as often as possible. The distinction, however, is that luxury items aren't widely accessible. This creates a scenario where you would almost always want to have those buffs available, but since food/drink are more valuable as a resource, you have to use them somewhat sparingly. You aren't going to use a food buff while sitting in town doing nothing. You will, however, try to leverage these buffs when you are confronted with a situation where they are useful. There are a range of buffs that could be realized within the food/drink system. Some food might have a shelf-life. Some food might provide HP/Mana regen while others provide maximum HP/Mana. Some food might provide movement speed, enhance your perception, improve your accuracy, evasion, provide an elemental spark to your weapon, or even allow you to better acclimate to a harsh climate.
Since each type of food/drink would likely have their own effect, this creates a situation where you may have to commit additional inventory slots so that you have a diverse repertoire of food/drink types at your disposal. The underlying point here is that using these consumables will feel more weighty. I have played other MMO's where food/drink were highly valuable and sought after by the majority of the player base. At the same time, they weren't widely accessible. They were player-crafted items that were made from harvesting resources (in a game where harvesting was actually dangerous) or NPC drops (in a game where NPC's were balanced for groups rather than solo play) -- these components were more difficult to come by and that is why they were valuable. Sure, everybody wanted to have food buffs going at all times ... but maintaining a stock of food/drink was expensive. Using these consumables wasn't something players would take for granted.
In fact, food/drink buffs were typically coordinated between group members. It wasn't uncommon for players to consume their food together for maximum uptime and cost-efficiency. If someone consumed a piece of beef jerky that increased their accuracy by 2 points for half an hour, it meant that they were more invested into that 30-minute window. Consuming food/drink was something that players planned and tried to maximize the value of. I remember food/drink being so valuable that it was a catalyst for keeping players together longer than what they expected. I vividly recall going on an adventure with friends one night and having an agreement that we were going to call it quits at midnight. Once midnight rolled around, there was a player in our group who consumed a piece of high-quality food that increased his accuracy. (Thinking about it now, he probably did it on purpose ... because things were going great for our group!) Since we were all aware of the cost involved, as well as the potential benefit of him having that increased accuracy, we agreed as a group to consume one more piece of food and make the most out of the durational buff that our friend was bringing to the table. You don't get that dynamic when food/drink are nothing more than a set-it-and-forget-it afterthought. I appreciate when game systems add more depth to the decision-making process, and more weight/impact on the decisions made.
I'll give another example to illustrate my point. I have played games where food/drink didn't have much value, and/or very little thoughtful application. If a player ran out of food/drink, and wasn't able to regen HP/Mana ... guess what would typically happen? One of their group members would give them a full stack of whatever they needed. A full stack! They gave a full stack because food/drink had very little value and was such a basic aspect of play that most players carried multiple stacks so that they could safely ignore the shallow requirements of the system for extended periods of time. I compare this to other games where players would try to coordinate their food buffs together and someone mentioned that they couldn't afford food. Not everybody could afford it because it was a luxury item. So then ... other members of the group would offer to share a couple of their valuable food/drink resources (and we were fortunate that they had the kind of food that was impactful for that situation) and that interaction actually carried weight and meant something. If you give another player 1.5 hours worth of valuable food buffs, they generally feel compelled to play at their best for those 1.5 hours because they appreciate the value of what was being shared.
Hegenox said:I agree with VR that the food in EQ was pointless - and don't get me wrong, I quite enjoy many games that have that survivalish aspect to them, but it only makes sense if we have to keep in mind ourselves to feed our characters (perhaps something like in Kingdoms Come:Deliverance). From what I've understood from the Round Table, devs plan to go with the proven in many games food/drinks mechanic of food just giving long term buffs, though perhaps they have something entirely different in mind and Joppa was just trying to be mysterious again ...
If you think food and drink were pointless then you might not have ever raided or seen what stats food can do for you. If you are wearing an item with a few stats would you not wear that cause you deem it pointless? It took you four levels and endless killing to obtain items. Food and drink were the same and offered resistance or stats. Something to consider.
ScuryLives said:If you think food and drink were pointless then you might not have ever raided or seen what stats food can do for you. If you are wearing an item with a few stats would you not wear that cause you deem it pointless? It took you four levels and endless killing to obtain items. Food and drink were the same and offered resistance or stats. Something to consider.
From the buff/stat gain perspective yes, but that won't change - we will have food that provides us with said gains. The argument was made strictly to the "hunger" perspective - which pretty much is what VR is changing. Food will most likely be crafters domain so it'll be more costly - we will have to think what buffs (from food) we apply and when. It's basically what oneADseven said in the previous post (no everyone can be a bard though >.<).
((food and drink as they have been a staple of MMO's since their inception are out. )
Food and drink were a staple in many single-player games going back to Temple of Apshai and Datestones of Rhyn - which fallable memory tells me were the first commercially sold CRPGs. Food and drink were staples in many of the early MUDs and MMOs, both Everquest and before. All of this is true.
But while they were a staple at the inception of the genre they most certainly have not been a staple since the inception. I venture to say that in the great majority of MMOs over many years food and drink have been sources of buffs but not necessary for survival. Which is the way the OP thinks Pantheon may be going.
So the question is should Pantheon go back to the way things were long ago, or should it not.
I am inclined to agree with oneADseven though not strongly. For the sake of keeping the game worth playing - we should go back to the days of Everquest and other early games on things that are important. Death penalty is *important*. Slow leveling is *important*. Challenging content not "faceroll to level cap" is *important*. Focus on groups and guilds over solo play and raids is *important*. No compromises there please.
If going back to the early days on things that are not important makes us even more of a niche game and reduces the chance to reach out to a wider audience - and note that I said "if" - these are areas where I think compromise is worthwhile. I am content to leave the decision to VR (not that I have a choice let's face it) on the plusses and minuses of food as necessary for survival rather than being a source of buffs. I am content to leave the decision to VR on whether to have detailed inventory management on arrows and bolts and other ammunition. A complete purist may want both management of food and management of arrows and bolts just as we had way back when. And I am torn in that direction. But my number one hope for the game is that it has *balance*. Enough old school features to make almost all of us happy but also enough conveniences so that it isn't totally a game just for EQ and Vanguard veterans.
bdo food buffs are almost mandatory in pvp. it gives a significant edge over other players. what is unique is that i can stack several food buffs that would suit my class.
to cross reference pantheon:
you can only stack different food buff effects.
as a wizard, i'd want to consume 'tea of dreams'(gives 10 mp5), 'joppa's croissant'(+10 int) and syronais salad(+10 wisdom).
i guess if i wanted a fatter fireball i could eat 'maw's meatburger'(+10 strength)
the point is that it's crafter made only and is tedious to make. it gives a significant advantage in gameplay.
there will probably be food that gives higher acclimation for certain enviroments (that's hella cool)
'funky fungus sandwich' (+30 to toxic acclimation and 5mp5)
I understand the perspective of peaks and valleys and how not everything is meant to be "fun." In that sense, I think Joppa's words are being taken out of context. I don't think the goal is to make the consumption of food in and of itself "fun" -- as someone else suggested previously, fun becomes a "sum of the parts." When it comes to food in particular, the system as a whole becomes more compelling/engaging when choices and decisions matter. Buying 5 stacks of food/drink and setting them to auto-consume is a very shallow "challenge" or form of maintenance. If VR were to add a lore bit that states "All air in the world of Terminus is poisonous and you must maintain a temporary breathing apparatus in order to survive" -- is the game more challenging or more fun if those apparatus are found on every other merchant scattered across the world, and are relatively cheap to purchase?
If it becomes a thing where everybody maintains a stock of those at all times because they are forced to do it then players are conditioned to buy a bunch, set them to auto-consume, and then restock when their supply runs low. That wouldn't be very impactful at all. Compare that to a situation where there are pockets of air in specific areas that require a breathing apparatus that is much harder to come by. Now you have something that you plan ahead for, something that is maintained thoughtfully, a resource that you don't take for granted. When it comes to food ... the "fun" lies in having more meaningful itemization, higher crafting relevance, group communication/interaction, improved player-driven economy, thought-provoking choices, and going out of your way to acquire something that is valuable enough to where you use it selectively. This is not an argument of making things more convenient ... quite the opposite, actually. It's "convenient" to barely use your brain for 20 seconds once per week.
Well, I guess I'll wait to see just how they implement both the buffs from the food and the process by which we consume it. Becuase if these buffs last just a few minutes and I need to be constantly shoving food down my neck to keep those buffs going I'm gonna be pissed. If, however, I can carry a stack of the food/drink that has the buffs I want and set them to auto-consume I w ill definitely do that even if it means I'm consuming them during times where they are not needed. I do not want to see the 'set it and forget it' approach replaced by stupid amounts of manual consumption just for short term (i.e. few minutes duration) buffs.
Vandraad said:Well, I guess I'll wait to see just how they implement both the buffs from the food and the process by which we consume it. Becuase if these buffs last just a few minutes and I need to be constantly shoving food down my neck to keep those buffs going I'm gonna be pissed. If, however, I can carry a stack of the food/drink that has the buffs I want and set them to auto-consume I w ill definitely do that even if it means I'm consuming them during times where they are not needed. I do not want to see the 'set it and forget it' approach replaced by stupid amounts of manual consumption just for short term (i.e. few minutes duration) buffs.
bdo food buffs lasts through death and typically last 30 mins for the cheap stuff and up to 2 hours for the really good stuff.
to reiterate the good stuff is pretty tedious to make, not everyone is going to want to invest time in making it.
elixirs, draughts on the other hand... are super powerful, but doesn't persist through death and last a short time, 5 mins(cheap) to 20 mins(aw yee) max.
i'd be pretty content if vr decides to have consumble operate in this manner.
I think that is a reasonable position Vandraad. I don't see an issue with the auto-consume feature itself. It's more the idea that food has so very little value that setting food/drink to auto consume is more of the default choice for everybody. There is nothing wrong with auto-consume as long as players realize that choosing to do so is effectively draining an important resource that could yield more value when managed thoughtfully. I think a 30-minute duration is good for the low end but could see that scaling up to several hours depending on the quality of food. There is risk vs reward in how these things are managed, especially if you lose the buffs after dying. Setting your 30-minute duration trail mix to auto consume makes more sense than the 4-hour duration dragon roast. There are a bunch of ways to make the food/drink system thought provoking without being overly tedious and boring.
oneADseven said:I think that is a reasonable position Vandraad. I don't see an issue with the auto-consume feature itself. It's more the idea that food has so very little value that setting food/drink to auto consume is more of the default choice for everybody. There is nothing wrong with auto-consume as long as players realize that choosing to do so is effectively draining an important resource that could yield more value when managed thoughtfully. I think a 30-minute duration is good for the low end but could see that scaling up to several hours depending on the quality of food. There is risk vs reward in how these things are managed, especially if you lose the buffs after dying. Setting your 30-minute duration trail mix to auto consume makes more sense than the 4-hour duration dragon roast. There are a bunch of ways to make the food/drink system thought provoking without being overly tedious and boring.
if something has to be auto consumed then it's a very non interactive design >.>
for alchemist: draughts for raid bosses(20 mins), elixirs for dungeon bosses(10 mins), potions(instant with a cooldown or lasts 5 mins) for oh snap situations
drugs do not last through death
for cooks: feast for raids(2 hrs), meals for dungeons(1 hr) and snacks(30 mins) for questing
last through death
I don't really disagree with what you're saying Stellar. The point is that it wouldn't need to be auto-consumed ... if the resource actually has value then players will usually try to use it efficiently. If someone wants to be lazy and set it to auto-consume and waste their resources, I don't really care. (I would love this if I was a provisioner!) I wouldn't do that personally because I have a tendency to be resourceful and focus on efficiency. I'm not going to waste expensive consumables in order to avoid managing them. Thoughtful management is the main thing I'm looking forward to with this system.